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What happened?

Snoboarder - 16-11-2018 at 06:50 AM

I remember when this forum was full of passionate people who would post on many topics and there was good exchange of information and storys told. Now it sees like theres more posts by spammers then real members. Where did everyone go. Is the PKF dying?

bigkid - 16-11-2018 at 10:57 AM

Wow I typed in pkf and it went to a porn site. What the heck?
The spammers only come out at night. I'll wait till it's sunny out before I venture back here.

abkayak - 16-11-2018 at 11:16 AM

I find it interesting what u guys have clicked on...

BeamerBob - 16-11-2018 at 11:57 AM

It was a heyday here years ago. So many passionate discussions among those that knew and those that wanted to learn. I used to post 3 times a day on average. Now I'll realize I haven't been on here ion days.

B-Roc - 16-11-2018 at 04:59 PM

Sadly, forums are dying. You can blame or thank social media platforms for that. Younger people probably don't even know to look for them. Older people move on as interests change.

Randy - 16-11-2018 at 05:09 PM

Interest can wax and wane, but there are still people around that are excited about the sport. Plus the archives have a lot of useful info. I think we should just all start posting more often relaying our questions, trials and triumphs. That will attract more people interested in the sport as they see more discussion is happening.

Windstruck - 16-11-2018 at 05:55 PM

My passion burns strong, but my flying time is very rare. Nowadays I get to buggy only a few times a year. I've lost interest in going to local soccer fields and my bride had me swear off of snowkiting after my freak gasoline fight accident on my aptly named wheels of doom a few years ago. Alvord calls my name, but the camping has me a little worried. IBX will remain an annual much loved event for me. I hope to make SOBB this year in May and again in the fall. I truly loved SOBB this last fall; great people, awesome vibe, and outstanding beach. I've got to get a ship wreck run under my belt!

This infrequent actual kiting has me not so involved as I'd like to be with actual legitimate postings. I realize I still post quite a bit (like I am now!) but it's not as if I'm actually flying all that often. Life circumstances keep me from being an actual pilot more often, but over the years I hope to change that. I love PKF and hope it stays in existence for the long haul. In a few years I may be in the position to be a more frequent pilot!

Feyd - 16-11-2018 at 06:55 PM

Windstruck has entirely too much time on his hands. He's been on this forum for 3yrs. He just past my posting numbers and I've been on here for 9 years. :D

This is off the cuff and it's my opinion so please take it with a grain.

As B-Roc stated, forums in many places are dying off due to social media.

Another factor is many of the key players that came into this forum, in its heyday as Bob said, members who made this the one forum that didn't have all the nonsense and BS that other forums possessed, aren't active anymore. Some have had life changes, aged out or even passed away.

Meanwhile, in that vacuum others have joined. Kiting is safer and easier now than it has ever been. I think this gives some of the newer members a false sense of accomplishment.
This in turn causes them to pontificate to people who are slightly less experienced than they themselves are. Responding to newbie questions with opinion and passing it off as fact without actually having put the time in to learn the facts first hand. And unfortunately, it seems people would rather follow inexperienced opinion over hard-won first-hand knowledge. Usually, because it's easier I guess, I don't really know.

But I know it makes me less interested in participating in the conversation. And like Bobby, I've dropped off the forum quite a bit as a result.

Then there's cost of the sport. The sport is pricing itself out of existence in my opinion. It's become an Doctor/lawyer/Tech Engineer/retiree Sport. Anyone not in that pay grade struggles with gaining access to areas to ride and worthwhile equipment. This does open the door for companies like Pansh but Pansh is not a solution. More of a symptom IMO. Though they are making better and better stuff. They remind me of HQ about 10+ years ago. Many of us bought HQ because we could afford Flysurer or Ozone. Now, HQ is nearly the same cost as those others.

If you want to see a forum on its deathbed, go to Arcusers. Huge resource for information but supporting a kite that is fading out and supported by a group of kiters kinda doing the same near as I can tell. I used to worship at the altar of Peter Lynn. I haven't flown any Arcs in years and I've been slowly thining them out of the inventory. Sad but I guess all of this is somewhat inevitable.

For my part I've withdrawn. I just do my thing. I reserve most of my effort for my students and my customers and rarely ever chime in here anymore. I don't have the energy or the time these days. I miss the days of long drawn out threads with the wealth of discussion and debate that they had. We just don't see that kind of engagement here anymore.

This all said this is still a great forum. Its well managed and the participants even today are well mannered and generally respectful. Most people manage to check thier egos at the door and people are respectful, mature and polite here. Which you can't say about a lot of forums.

My 2 cents for whats it's worth.

zero gee - 16-11-2018 at 07:11 PM

Forums are extremely cumbersome to the younger generation. Logon, get kick off, logon again, forever to load (may not even load with reduced data area), too many steps to share photos, sharing videos even worse, sharing links and your location. Does not matter how active a forum is to them. There is instant notification /gratification when using social apps.

Chook - 16-11-2018 at 08:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by zero gee

Forums are extremely cumbersome to the younger generation. Logon, get kick off, logon again, forever to load (may not even load with reduced data area), too many steps to share photos, sharing videos even worse, sharing links and your location. Does not matter how active a forum is to them. There is instant notification /gratification when using social apps.

Yep totally agree there. You have nailed it in one.
We now live in an "instant world".
If I cant have it now it's forgotten about 5 mins later. The younger people I find (in general) have no curiosity any more. If they don't know, just google it and move on. Who cares?

Teaching manual art, I find they don't have the determination to get on with larger projects anymore.
Even jobs of their own choosing, they just want it now.
Not everyone but I must say about 80% it would be. If I cant use it today, it's a real struggle to keep them on task.

Snake - 16-11-2018 at 09:40 PM

I agree with what everyone said about social media taking over, but I think another reason this forum was so popular was we were in the wild west days of kiteing. Every year the kites were miles ahead of the previous and people modded their kites to get every ounce of performance out of them. Now kites are so sophisticated and refined that they are perfect from the factory and the performance is leveling off. I think there are very few people that can extract all the performance of a late model kite. I know I don't even come close to getting all the performance out of my chargers.

Then there is the problem with the lack of people coming into the sport. My experience with people my age (I'm 20 btw) is that it is too much effort to actually go do something. All of my friends I have introduced to the sport drop it after a few times out on the trainer because it takes too much time to drive to the outskirts of town and set up a kite, or it is too demanding to actually fly the kite. It seems it takes a special breed of to be motivated enough to actually go out and fly.

And for the people that say it is price, I don't think that is an issue either. My first depower setup was a 13m venom, bar, harness, and a nice mbs board, and it was less than $500 at my doorstep. There are deals to be had if you have the patience and buy used. But everyone today seems to need it new and need it now.

I think is almost crazy how people think a $1000 kiteing setup is outrageous but $1000 for metal poles to hit balls around a field is normal. Sure some people my not even have $1000 to spare right now, but I think practically everyone could save $85 a month and get a very good beginner setup in a year. Skipping the $4 latte every day on the way to work would do it. I started donateing plasma again to be able to upgrade all my equipment. There are ways realize you goals if you think ahead and have the dedication.

shehatesmyhobbies - 17-11-2018 at 03:07 AM

The forum has definitely "changed". I was actually reading on your thread and it almost seemed funny to me that a couple people posted about your experience and a noticible, "ah this is a new guy" responses. And I was beside myself on how many people didn't recognize you or know how long you've been in the sport. Your short absentee was definitely the reason, but I was still shocked.

Even I have lessened my post, but I still check almost daily. There has been a shift in style and kite choice in some cases, but the interest is still there.

I hope you find anmite soon, if you can muster andeal with Flygiy for that 13 venom, it would be a great deal, hope it's still available.

Hope to see you in the spring.

abkayak - 17-11-2018 at 05:44 AM

gotta admit plasma for kites makes me feel all warm inside...thats commitment :thumbup:

PKF has kept me in check and from hurting myself more than my acceptable level
for that i will always owe the forum and the next guy...

i won't mention the personal friendships it has spawned...priceless

aronma - 17-11-2018 at 08:44 AM

I learned about kiting on PKF. I'm not on FB, so I guess I'm an old-timer or just bucking the trend that most others follow. I'm fortunate enough to live only a few hours from Wildwood and after reading a post about WBB I decided to go and meet others who are interested in this sport. I've been hooked ever since. I've watched the posts on PKF dwindle, but I still logon to see what's happening and still find out about various events through this forum. I'm a lifer and hope a few others are too.

bugymangp - 17-11-2018 at 09:34 AM

It goes without saying I'm a lifer too
25 yrs and counting

mougl - 17-11-2018 at 10:27 AM

I think it is due mostly to social media being as huge as it is. Many people just go on Facebook, Twitter, etc for information these days. There are a few of us that still lurk and post occasionally. Perhaps we should make a PKF Facebook page?

Randy - 17-11-2018 at 11:21 AM

Extreme Kites has a Facebook page. From what I can tell they have very little activity. (I'm not on FB, so maybe I can't see it all.)

Bladerunner - 17-11-2018 at 11:43 AM

I have seen the scene locally boom and bust at least a couple of times. I got pulled in by the second wave and times were GOOD!

Our second wave was boosted by sponsorship from all sorts of kite companies. For a number of reasons that sponsorship is gone. Without the sponsors the chances for " pass the kite " and " team riders " and event support have all disapeared. ALL of these excited me and made made what I do feel legit. Not my #1 reason to ride but HOOJ reward. Even just the great swag at the events felt good.

Pablo - PKD went away. Ripsession - many top brands imploded. Scudly and SkyCountry kites never took off. Although we still love them. All went away.
Deano, Angus, Jeff, Big Mike, Van and others just could not afford to keep serving us. Ozone dropping FB and sponsorship only adds to the blow.

The last time it was slow here the sport was growing elsewhere. I am not sure that is the case now.

I agree that social media also plays it's part. The only other kite related sites I visit are kiteoregon and WBB an facebook.

When I joined this site it was to honour Bob Childs and his gift of an add free site. To pay it forward just like Bob. It is a diiferent age but this forum needs to live on.

It became and IS the best place for somebody in the middle of nowhere to get advice and gear. I ride a lot less these days and nobody is giving me the newest kites to demo but I stick around to continue paying it forward. I have the kites and skills I need to fly until I die. I choose to do what makes ME happy. I have long ago given up on growing the sport and ride for mty own pleasure now. You guys get it. Or at least you OG!

Feyd - 17-11-2018 at 11:54 AM

Well said Blade.

Ed Cline - 17-11-2018 at 02:10 PM

rtz - 17-11-2018 at 06:44 PM

The scene in the 1990's:

http://www.rainbowsendcam.com/bbt_1994.php

Some local guys who started buggy'n in the 1990's are still around(on the sidelines) and stop to say hi once in a while.

Seems like there was another big wave of kiters in the mid 2000's? I got in late at the end of that wave.

I buggy'd alone for many years. Now the local group is up to 6 people. Not one of them gets online for this stuff. Their ages are: 56, 59, 60, 62, and 64. I'm "young" at 40.

Our 3 newest guys all ride Pansh Flux due to the price. Priced any Beamers or Hornets lately? More than they were willing to pay. Any other kite choices?

This hobby/sport/activity or whatever you call it has a lot of drawbacks to it compared to other activities. Has to be daylight. Must not be raining, needs wind. Most of all, one lives in a windy place AND has a place to ride. Those of you who only can ride seasonally due either to snow, desert to hot, or beaches to crowded or kites not allowed certain times a year; those things would cause me to move or travel if I couldn't do this year round.

I've got a need for speed and the blokart is actually faster in our little riding area they any kite can get up too. I ride circles around those guys. My top speed in the buggy used to be 30 if I could even manage to get out of the 20's for the day. Now I cruise at 30! I used to average ~16 miles traveled with the buggy most days more often then not. Now I average 30 miles traveled! I rode 60 miles one day up and down a 1/4 mile long sidewalk; most of it on two wheels.

If you thought kites and buggies were expensive; well just like how pricey things are in the sailing world; the blokart will make your eyes water! So cost prohibitive it will keep its market small. Guys here who can afford it won't get one either based on principle or it's more than they can bear to pay or are willing to pay.

If I lived up north; I would totally be into ice sailing:

Browse the price on these and it will make the blokart seem like a deal: http://www.landyachting.com/

pbc - 19-11-2018 at 08:16 PM

My first kite buggy adventure was July 4th, 1992. I was in that photo from the BBT in 1994. Someday I will decide to land the kites for good, but I expect I'm good for another 20 years. When that day comes that I'll get a landsailer--probably a Miniskeeter. In short, I'm not going anywhere any time soon.

As to this forum, I still read it, I still like it, but I read it a lot less than I used to. The principal issue for me is that the phpBB software that drives this forum is so hard to use on a small screen. I'd much rather read PKF than Facebook, but Facebook works on my phone while PKF does not. :-( Both reading and writing for PKF are painful from a phone.

I find myself looking at mobile friendly forum software like Discourse. It looks good on the web and on my phone. Reading and composing work well. Do others feel the same way? Would a mobile-friendly forum be appealing? For a taste of what Discourse works like visit https://bbs.boingboing.net/

pkf - 20-11-2018 at 04:32 PM

Howdy to all!

When I started the forum, message boards were the standard and over the past 16 years we developed a massive database of kite instruction, tips, sport history and personal stories. We had a strong community and I'm pleased with what we have accomplished here.

I knew that eventually as time passed, interest in the forum may wane. The sport and even methods of communication may change. The last time I brought up the idea of a facelift or transitioning to facebook, no one was interested (myself included).

But handheld devices are now the norm and I'm aware that this software does not work well on a phone. pbc mentioned a mobile-friendly forum like Discourse. I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

If there is a 'next gen' of kiters that want to take this site forward, I'd be willing to let it go to someone willing and able to get it done and keep it going long term. It would take commitment. I'd hate to see it lost on a whim.

Randy - 20-11-2018 at 04:46 PM

The content is very valuable, esp. since it is searchable. Many times I have studied old posts and found really helpful info.

rofer - 20-11-2018 at 05:52 PM

I still check the forums, but definitely not as much as I used to. Eventually I learned that until there's good snowcover land kiting really doesn't work in Pittsburgh. I've mostly been kiting in the water and kiteforum.com seems to have a much more active community for that. I love the community here though and now that winter is arriving I'm checking back more often.

Quote: Originally posted by pkf

I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

I don't have the time to lead this, but I might be able to help out with some of the coding with someone else wants to give it a try.

zero gee - 20-11-2018 at 06:09 PM

The worst part of social apps is all the valuable information that can get lost in the pile of off topic crosstalk garbage. Something as simple as arranging a meet up to kite with others can be very hard to determine what the consensus was for a time and place.

We try to reign it in but it's just too easy and gets out of hand quickly.

Unfortunately, the transition to Social has had the opposite affect. Without prior discussion on our forum people went out on their own with different apps. At one point we had a couple different groups on Facebook, a couple different groups on Messenger, and a couple different groups on Whatsapp. Our once close group has been fragmented.

Settled down to a couple of WhatsApp groups. Not much activity on our forum now. Sad.

Our local forum is phpbb and more mobile friendly than this one.

pbc - 20-11-2018 at 07:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

The content is very valuable, esp. since it is searchable. Many times I have studied old posts and found really helpful info.

Yes, searchable and public so important. Facebook is neither of these. I really hate that about FB.

indigo_wolf - 20-11-2018 at 07:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pkf

But handheld devices are now the norm and I'm aware that this software does not work well on a phone. pbc mentioned a mobile-friendly forum like Discourse. I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

I still owe you a response on your last U2U, but bogged down with family holiday stuff until the nightside in about 3 hours.

Let me know if you want to spend some time looking over a XMB -> Discourse or other platfom migration.

Beening thinking about this thread for a while now.

Maybe something cogent to add overnight.

ATB,
Sam

Kamikuza - 20-11-2018 at 07:34 PM

Gosh, I'm kind of ashamed to say I haven't thought about some of the old crowd in ages, even guys I communicated personally with.

I think the global forum has given way to local forums, and "social media" (go on, you know we all mean Facebook) has co-opted those as well. But FB is really crap for long-running discussions and searching anything. And if people don't invite you, you don't know there are groups at all -- I only discovered a local one back home in NZ after the guys invited me to *different* local group, and then someone let slip about the other one :D

Content is gold-pressed latinum -- the loss of foilzone has been a real blow. Hope we don't lose here...!

Where I live, we've had probably 4 years of crap summer wind, and the gentle flowers of manhood don't come out in the cold, so there are some guys I simply haven't seen in ages ... and now almost everyone now has foil boards :D

Such is life. Everything changes :alien:

pbc - 20-11-2018 at 08:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pkf

Howdy to all!

...
But handheld devices are now the norm and I'm aware that this software does not work well on a phone. pbc mentioned a mobile-friendly forum like Discourse. I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

If there is a 'next gen' of kiters that want to take this site forward, I'd be willing to let it go to someone willing and able to get it done and keep it going long term. It would take commitment. I'd hate to see it lost on a whim.

I too would hate to lose the PKF content. So migration is critical. XMB imposes some constraints in the migration department, but I found a commercial service that does for-fee forum migrations. They can convert XMB to any of 20 forums. Discourse is not one of them, but it is hardly the only mobile-friendly forum.

One forum engine that seems pretty popular is Vanilla. Curious folks can try it out at https://open.vanillaforums.com/. Vanilla appears to have a very similar feature set to XMB if you throw in some plugins. A comparison matrix can be found at Vanilla vs. XMB.

The migration service I found supports XMB to Vanilla migrations. They do them in situ. For the size of PKF it looks like the fee would be $650. (see XMB to Vanilla Migration) While that's more than lunch money, the fee is quite reasonable for the complexity of the task and the value of the product. I'd be willing to buck up a good portion of that fee.

But, all this begs the question, how much distance do you want from this, Bob? I'm less in the sysadmin business than I used to be and it has changed a lot since I moved away from it, but I know that keeping software running is still work. Someone has to read the logs, upgrade the software, fix the backups, fix a data corruption, install a plugin, etc. There is no fully automated system.

How do you want this to evolve?

Regards,
Philip

pkf - 25-11-2018 at 06:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pbc

How do you want this to evolve?

That's a good question, but really this is up to our membership to decide.

Personally, I prefer the structure of a forum with organized categories and topics (rather than a continuous stream of posts). Organizing posts by sport type (ie buggys, skates, surfing...) makes it easy to browse related threads. It also suits our club and event users who keep their posts separated from the other categories.

But as I said, this could be left to the membership to decide. How to you want the PKF to proceed? Do you want it to become a mobile-friendly app? FB or whatsapp? Remain unchamged?

My question is: would any of these changes really have a positive affect on membership or is declining posts more a measurement of the current level of kitesport enthusiasm?

My contribution to this forum is to provide hosting and I have promised to maintain the domain and content 'til I'm old and grey. If one day posting ended, I would disable registration and maintain the content as a searchable database of sport info/history.

If a change is desired by all, I would gladly turn the site over to someone/s willing, able and committed to taking the community forward. Therefore sober feedback is invited. We should start a poll. What options should we present for a vote?

Keep in mind, 1.) we are discussing a permanent change that would affect every member and 2.) if a change is desired, we need someone to see it through. Considering my current obligations, a software change is beyond my capability.

Randy - 25-11-2018 at 08:34 AM

I'm not so sure that changing to a mobile friendly app such as FB will solve the main issue which is a drop in posts overall. Might just kill the group. Based on what is going on in the news the big time social media platforms (FB, Google, twitter, etc) are all mired down in problems mainly centered on how they use data from members. May not be the best time to jump on their bandwagons.

jeffnyc - 25-11-2018 at 12:56 PM

My vote would not be changing to FB, but definitely update the forum to something more modern. I would certainly be happy to help with design if needed.

Bladerunner - 25-11-2018 at 04:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I'm not so sure that changing to a mobile friendly app such as FB will solve the main issue which is a drop in posts overall. Might just kill the group. Based on what is going on in the news the big time social media platforms (FB, Google, twitter, etc) are all mired down in problems mainly centered on how they use data from members. May not be the best time to jump on their bandwagons.

I think Randy is right. Then again I am old and resist change.

The only issue I see as an issue to some is the text quirk.

I fear that if the site isn't under this respected domain name the old guard who only look back in on occasion will lose touch.

kteguru - 25-11-2018 at 04:19 PM

My question is: would any of these changes really have a positive affect on membership or is declining posts more a measurement of the current level of kitesport enthusiasm?

Bingo.

Windstruck - 25-11-2018 at 04:39 PM

So, XK over in Australia underwent a facelift a couple of years ago and it survived. It suffers from similar issues as PKF, viz., a general drop in active participation.

Their site is distinctly more modern than PKF and keeps things categorized and their old content was further preserved. Might be worth a gander over there to get a look and feel for another nice power kiting site.

Randy - 25-11-2018 at 05:10 PM

ExtemeKites though seems like they have less posts than we do, though it is a little hard to tell because they don't have a today's post section (or at least I haven't seen it.) They are also kind of a pain because they won't even let you visit the site more than a few times if you don't log in. (Of course, that does make life harder for the spammers.) It is a pretty snazzy looking site though.

indigo_wolf - 25-11-2018 at 07:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

ExtemeKites though seems like they have less posts than we do, though it is a little hard to tell because they don't have a today's post section (or at least I haven't seen it.) They are also kind of a pain because they won't even let you visit the site more than a few times if you don't log in. (Of course, that does make life harder for the spammers.) It is a pretty snazzy looking site though.

XK runs in cycles. Today they have 8 posts to our 3.

A "Today's Post" is something you can define as a "Custom Activity Stream" with the attributes shown in the attached image.

I had never created one before reading your post and it took be about 3 or 4 minutes to do.

I just visited XK 24 times without being signed in? Not quite sure what you are experiencing.

Like PKF, spammers would need to be signed in to post anything.

Normally, I just use the "Stay Logged In" option and so I haven't had to provide login credentials in months and months.

XK has a bunch of core users including our very own John Holgate that tend to post catalyst/ice breaker posts whenever things get slow.

I've seen the same behavior on one or two other forums and when those people left due to life changes, you could hear the chorus of crickets.

ATB,
Sam

RedSky - 26-11-2018 at 03:40 PM

I joined kiteforum.com in 2014 and visit most days. Its always very busy there despite the dated website. Kiteboarding got a boost recently from the introduction of foil boards and foil kites but even with all that, there have been discussions over there on declining numbers too.

Randy - 26-11-2018 at 07:12 PM

I don't know why exactly, but I did have a problem with xtremekites.com telling I had visited too many times w/o logging in. I had to send an email to someone to get back in. Normally I stay logged in as well, except for some reason (I think when I get software updates or something) I have to log in again at most of the sites I normally visit. Anyway, I rarely visit it now.

B-Roc - 26-11-2018 at 07:19 PM

I agree with Feyd. The sport has just become too expensive for most. I entered the sport by buying 3 used kites for $500 shipped. I had a complete starter FB quiver. Today, that would just barely buy me a new bar and lines. The kite progression is amazing but untouchable for me given current priorities.

Couple that with crap weather and lack of motivation and support via forums or fellow riders and it's just hard to stay motivated.

I keep wanting to go out and then keep finding reasons to not.

BeamerBob - 26-11-2018 at 09:18 PM

My entire kite life is chronicled here. I signed on here right after getting my Beamer which I figured was the last kite I'd ever need. :D.
If any changes were made it is critical to maintain the old content as well as the post thread format and searchable content.

There are several kite buggy related pages on Facebook but none of them compare to the community and quality of content or even the volume as here on PKF. Moving there would be the end of what this is.

B-Roc - 27-11-2018 at 07:50 AM

I don't see a huge need to change. I don't think the format is the cause of the lack of participation and content. The good ole days are just that. If migrating platforms keeps PKF alive then I support that, but swapping to attract users... I see no need. The world (younger people in particular) consumes information differently these days. Its sad to see it fade out but that's sadly the nature of the internet forum world as we know it. ALL the forums that I am active in have seen remarkably similar declines in content and viewership and I'm not on FB or IG. I am on Reddit and I really don't like the way the fleeting nature of their "forums".

jrhook - 27-11-2018 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

My entire kite life is chronicled here.

Likewise...hard to see revolutionary change whilst in the middle of it. One of my first kite skiing outings was mentored by many of you years ago...it got hairy at the end! https://youtu.be/__HI3l0bUcg

Feyd - 27-11-2018 at 10:59 AM

Moving this to FB wont change anything imo. How long has the pkf fb page been up and how many of us use it? Meanwhile fb pages for other things exist and thriv3 but wow, there is a lot of nonsense, bs just straight up bad information riddling those pages. The ease of access seems to equate to an ease of posting whatever one wants without a need to really consider if something is post worthy.

D Cheek - 28-11-2018 at 01:07 AM

PKF was the best thing for me when I got started and I still check in a couple times a week.
The format is fine, don't change. This is our special place for our special sport. Don't need all the crap that shows up on FB clouding up the discussions.
No ones FD group can not get away from it unless you have a full time administrator reading all postings there. It's a full time job and most of us have a life and jobs and families.

There's been a few negatives on this forum that slowed me down. One was the fact that anybody without any firsthand experience of an item posted for sale could just rip #@%$#! it apart. Their defense was that they could say anything they wanted to say. Well... some people lost their ethics and civility. It got to the point that you couldn't sell anything here because of a few know-it-all's with big flapping jaws that really didn't know it all. Those negative comments about other peoples equipment was bad form!

It also seems that all the or most newbies arn't commentators. 144 characters at a time is the best they can do. Thay think they have it all figured out and don't need PKF. Even at events most new buggy guys just do their own thing and don't mingle and socialize. PKF is a great place to socialize!

I believe that PKF is the glue that keeps our sport together . A wealth of information for anyone that's not up dating their status every 5 minutes on FB.

Kamikuza - 28-11-2018 at 03:03 AM

Wait...is snoboarder actually Snob Dr? :D

cheezycheese - 28-11-2018 at 07:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza

Wait...is snoboarder actually Snob Dr? :D

Was my first thought... :D

BeamerBob - 28-11-2018 at 08:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza

Wait...is snoboarder actually Snob Dr? :D

No way. Too cordial and friendly. That guy would argue that the sun didn't come up this morning. :duh::duh::D:D

rtz - 28-11-2018 at 11:51 PM

I suggest just put a link to the existence of the FB page someplace on the forum: https://www.facebook.com/groups/241030802661751/ Most people don't know it exists.

I think what really put a dent and damper on the forum activity was when at some point the issue with the special punctuation being an issue with being able to make a post using apple products. I know initially I had a few big posts get lost after hitting the reply button. I'm sure that situation frustrated a lot of people before it was finally figured out.

Maybe put a notice somewhere about how to disable that stuff so posts can be made.

Unrelenting spam killed this forum coupled with supposedly no admin and/or the password to the forum is unknown: http://www.panshfans.com/index.php

This site was inactive before I was around in 2010: http://www.racekites.com/forum/forum.php

This site slowly withered away: https://forum.kitecrowd.com Maybe charging $1 to create an account to block spammers kept most people from creating an account?

Unk - 29-11-2018 at 05:18 AM

"That guy would argue that the sun didn't come up this morning. :duh::duh::D:D "

Send him to Scotland, we not seen the sun in a couple of weeks

If the rain keeps up going to trade the buggy in for an ark :D

We are not short of wind though

Randy - 29-11-2018 at 05:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rtz

I suggest just put a link to the existence of the FB page someplace on the forum: https://www.facebook.com/groups/241030802661751/ Most people don't know it exists.

Like me for instance.

Brant - 29-11-2018 at 11:39 PM

I don't actually know the last time that i used a desktop computer that wasn't at my work, so I completely understand the issues with viewing and posting on this site with a mobile device. The biggest issues for me always seem to be how wide the text layout is, especially if someone puts a large picture in a thread. Sometimes you have to scroll across the screen twice for each line of text you read. That being said I love the way the forum is laid out and wouldn't change that for the world. Having a more updated forum which works better on a mobile device would be a wonderful thing, but not if it's going to cause issues with the content that is already here. Personally I don't think an update will really attract any new people or help anyone find the site, but it might make things easier for some of the current and future members to use the site.

Memopad - 30-11-2018 at 05:16 AM

Social media fragments the discussion and has no archive to preserve knowledge. It's really terrible to see it displace so many forums.

I only kite during the winter on my frozen lake, 99% of the time I'm by myself, and the frozen lake terrain can get almost boring sometimes. The one thing that gets me excited to ride and get my ass out the door are the speed rankings that Chris puts on each year. It gives me a goal to work for each week, so thanks for that and I hope you keep it up for years to come!

pbc - 1-12-2018 at 06:01 PM

I'm in favor of a converting PKF to mobile-friendly site. My hope is to be able to read and post to powerkiteforum.com from my phone. Maybe that way I won't fall 10 days behind on this thread again. ;-)

pkf - 10-12-2018 at 01:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Social media fragments the discussion and has no archive to preserve knowledge.

I agree and I believe no one is really interested in Facebook or the like. I think it comes down to making no changes or switching to a forum app that works better on mobile devices. At least two options have been discussed above. Here's the problem: conversion is expensive and afterward costs a monthly rate or a lump sum for self hosting with the need for an intense setup. Who will pay for this and who will take on the enormous task of transfer and administration? Another question... what if after all this, the forum continues to fade regardless?

soliver - 10-12-2018 at 06:47 AM

I'm very anti-social media; so I am very much not in favor moving to FB or any other Social Media platform. I'm pleased to see the consensus is that that is not the consensus.

My participation in kiting has waned severely in the last few years, but that is primarily a function of my stage of life, large family and interest in other hobbies. Like others, my kiting is only happening a few times annually and while I have always loved the community here, minimal participation gleans not much to say/contribute.

I've been a member for a while now and have watched the number of lines you see with the "Today's Posts" button decline through the years. I would guess that it is a combination of many things that contribute; from the popularization of social media platforms to a noticeable wane in participation in the sport. (The attendance at the first JIBE I went to many years ago was markedly higher than the most recent).... While I am one who is adverse to change, I would not balk at a change or facelift to the site (so long as it does not involve movement to a Social Media platform), but understand what that entails and am ultimately fine if it stays the same. However, I'm not so sure it will make a great difference.

I did find it ironic that this was the only thread active in "Today's Posts" when I clicked it :lol:

pkf - 10-12-2018 at 06:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

I did find it ironic that this was the only thread active in "Today's Posts" when I clicked it :lol:

Do keep in mind it was 6:47am when you posted ;-)

WELDNGOD - 10-12-2018 at 10:20 AM

I would hate to see an end to PKF.It has been instrumental in bringing traction kiting knowledge to people in search of said knowledge. I have met many awesome people who have always been friendly and willing to teach others about the sport. I still lurk here, and I keep up with the forum. I know most of the members who have a FB page. And we communicate on a more personal level there. I know I certainly haven't lost interest in the sport or the forum.

riffclown - 10-12-2018 at 03:02 PM

I don't facebook AT ALL but I also don't drop in as often as I used to.. I was here daily (read persistently) for a long time but my interest migrated away from the power side more to the sport and stunt side. There's not a lot of that here. If you read my very first post, I'm pretty sure that's where I was always headed. I still enjoy mu power kityes but they do not get flown as often as they used to.

All of that being said, PKF is a great group but, conversations here tend to be seasonal. The buggy groups are fairly consistent. Water sports tend to be summer and snowkiters tend to be Winter. I'll ask each and every one of you.. Are you here more than you kite or are you not here because you are out flying? I realize I'm not around as much so my vote counts much less but:
-When is the last time you flew??
-When is the last time your shared flying here??
-When is the last time you started a topic??

This is a great site and except for a few small tweaks, it's kinda perfect for what it is. It is a bit ironic that our busiest thread lately is about why we aren't busier here. That seems to be the question for each of us though. Why aren't I posting on PKF lately??

Snoboarder - 10-12-2018 at 04:07 PM

Very anti fb or anything like that. Something more mobile friendly was what i was thinking. Keeping the information is crutial.

Morrie Williams - 10-12-2018 at 05:25 PM

Who in the group is willing/able/capable of migrating/converting the current forum to something more mobile friendly AND supporting it on a long term basis? I'm guessing very few.

In the past I've built and supported websites for various kiting groups including NorthWest Buggy Pilots Association (NWBPA), Washington Kite Flyers Association, North American Power Kiting Association (NAPKA) and Ivanpah Buggy eXpo.

This is a project I wouldn't even consider taking on. Any Techies out there think they have the right stuff?

Randy - 10-12-2018 at 07:33 PM

BTW - is it possible we could upgrade to a later version of the software we are using? Would that help?

Also - could we solve the cost problem by allowing advertising on the forum. I know it is annoying, but it is easy to just ignore it.

pbc - 10-12-2018 at 09:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Morrie Williams

Who in the group is willing/able/capable of migrating/converting the current forum to something more mobile friendly AND supporting it on a long-term basis? I'm guessing very few.

...Any Techies out there think they have the right stuff?

I'll raise my hand. I have done Linux system administration and MySQL administration. My team at UF runs PHP/MySQL-based apps written locally and by other teams. I am slowly teaching them so I can give up my systems work.

Whereas I have never run XMB or any other forum software I can learn anything if I am motivated to apply myself to it. The big issue for me is capacity. I don't think I have the capacity at the moment to learn the forum software and the environment I'd want to run it in. I expect that would change in April or June.

As Bob said, the cost might be an issue. Commercial migration services would cost about $650. Fully hosted services can be $300 - $400/mo. Rolling it yourself on a cloud provider is cheaper, but not trivial. It's not enough to run one machine with everything on it. At the very least you need to have disaster recovery services. You might need redundancy and scalability. You'll need a method to do software upgrades. Precious few of those services are free and the rest will add up rapidly. So the forum needs income or a benefactor. I'm down for being a partial benefactor, but I would need someone else with some skin in the game.

Once you make the move to the new platform, you have committed to the recurring cost. If the motivation to pay the recurring cost wanes, what then?

I'll commit to this: I'll use my spare cycles over the next 6 months to learn Vanilla Forums. I think it is the best option to support the migration of the old content. It seems to be light on resource consumption as well. I could use a partner in this. If I am completely solo the project is at more risk from my whims, distractions and the risk of me stepping in front of a bus.

Who else has run apache, Mysql, nginx, Linux, etc? Who else understands what it means to have a disaster recovery plan? Docker anyone? Kubernetes?

Peace out,
Philip

Morrie Williams - 11-12-2018 at 08:34 AM

Phil, U2U sent.