Power Kite Forum

Apex iii 7.5 bar trouble.

jjesseday - 17-2-2019 at 07:43 PM

I've got a question for everyone.... I just flew my Apex iii 7.5 for the 2nd time today. The first time which was yesterday, I flew it static for a bit and did some buggying with it. I loved the power of it and had a great time! But I feel like either something is wrong with my bar adjustment, or it's because I'm a newbie. The problem was that the only way I felt like the kite was really powered up was when the bar what fully extended to the stopper. I'm a short guy so this was just about outta my reach. I'm guessing winds were about 10 - 15 but John (blitzhound) could probably tell you better. When I pulled the bar in even a little bit the kite would stall. That was yesterday. I took it out today static in about 10 mile per hour wind. The same thing was happening. So I tried adjusting the trim strap one way all the way and giving that ago, and then adjusting it all the way the other way and giving that a go. I did some pretty good scudding, about 10 to 15 ft but the only time that happened is when the bar was fully extended. I actually landed the kite to put it away by pulling the bar in completely. I never once touched the brake line strap to land. Is this normal? Am I doing something wrong? I'm guessing this kite needs a lot more wind to fly as intended but is there a way to shorten the throw so that I can get power without extending my arms completely out? Thanks for the help!
Jesse

Snake - 18-2-2019 at 07:33 AM

Two things I could think of that could be causing that. The front lines could be too long (or the backs too short, same thing), or there is just too little wind. If the fronts were too long, pulling the trimmer should have made it better or worse because it is just adjusting the length of the fronts. Do you remember how much sag was in the back lines? Some kites also just need more wind to get there shape and fly properly. And most of them don't like to the bar pulled in until they are moving. I actually tune my bars so that at full bar in there is a bit of backstall at zenith, because once you are moving the kite will no longer backstall and you can get a bit more power out of it.

jeffnyc - 18-2-2019 at 08:40 AM

Check to see if your lines are equal. Go to about 35 seconds in this vid - you need to attach all lines to fixed point, pull tight, bar all the way back, trim all the way out.

jjesseday - 18-2-2019 at 09:13 AM

Snake, no I didn't notice how much sag was in back lines..... I will check length of lines tonight. Thanks much!

jjesseday - 18-2-2019 at 09:19 AM

Thanks for video Jeff! Next time I have daylight after work I'm trying that. Seems like you're both saying same thing! Thanks again.

abkayak - 18-2-2019 at 03:04 PM

my 2c
i have this same kite and am vertically challenged as well...
i think you just needed more wind for it to light up and do what it does
this thing is very predictable and super stable even overpowered
that said i honestly think it looses all these abilities if you trim it in at all...
at least thats what i have experienced w/ this kite more than any other i have had
next...in a buggy my arms are too short , on an landboard just long enough w/ the bar but crossover is still tuff
i had always wanted to replace the chic loop and cut off 1 or 2" from the bottom...but don't listen to me about that one
working the bar was best done lightly and when in motion...unless you want to go up thats when pulling the bar in counts

jjesseday - 18-2-2019 at 04:12 PM

Replacing chicken loop. Great idea, thanks abkayak-

jjesseday - 18-2-2019 at 07:12 PM

Thank you everybody for the ideas and feedback. Got home tonight and disconnected all the lines from the kite. My brake lines were about 6in longer than the power lines... Rookie mistake I guess. Lol. My front line connections near the bar had three knots and were currently connected to the ones closest to the kite. I moved both of those in one knot towards the bar. I'm hoping that fixes this. Thanks for the video Jeff, I followed the instructions and after I adjusted the front lines the bar pulls all the way back to chicken loop and all lines are tight. That's with the trim let out all the way. We will see what happens next time theres wind!

jeffnyc - 18-2-2019 at 11:34 PM

Glad it was that easy! I remember having similar problems/questions with my first bar (wasn't all that long ago).

Blitzhound - 19-2-2019 at 12:22 AM

Winds were 6-10mph not 10-15mph. I buggied with the kite for probably a half hour. kite flew great. I had no issues.

Feyd - 19-2-2019 at 06:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jjesseday  
My front line connections near the bar had three knots and were currently connected to the ones closest to the kite. I moved both of those in one knot towards the bar. I'm hoping that fixes this.


Correct me if I'm wrong but if you move the front lines closer to the bar, you are shortening them relative to the back lines. Same as if you are trimming.

If you are sheeting in and the kite is stalling, you're back line tension is too high. Or, you aren't letting the kite build enough airspeed to generate power and allow you to sheet in and make use of the change in angle of attack.

The reach on older HQ bars has been a long-standing issue. Smaller loops help. The thread below covers how to make one.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=29110

jjesseday - 19-2-2019 at 07:33 AM

Thanks and i don't know Feyd, I just followed the video above until my bar would pull all the way back. While everything was layed out on ground, once I moved the power lines in a knot, they seemed to be about lined up with the brake lines.

jjesseday - 19-2-2019 at 07:36 AM

Hey John maybe you had no problems because of experience and also because your arms are like a foot longer than mine LOL either way I got to figure something out to make it comfortable or just get a new bar

jjesseday - 19-2-2019 at 07:52 AM

Feyd, I should elaborate a bit more on that. I disconnected all my lines and hook them to a nail. I pulled the bar back tight. I left the trim strap all the way out. When I pull the bar tight it would only come back about halfway before all four lines were equal length. According to the above video and another one that Rick sent me the bar should pull all the way back and all lines should be tight if it's adjusted properly. I really like the chicken Loop idea but if I bought an ozone bar would that fix this whole problem?

jeffnyc - 19-2-2019 at 11:35 AM

Feyd - 20-2-2019 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jjesseday  
Feyd, I should elaborate a bit more on that. I disconnected all my lines and hook them to a nail. I pulled the bar back tight. I left the trim strap all the way out. When I pull the bar tight it would only come back about halfway before all four lines were equal length. According to the above video and another one that Rick sent me the bar should pull all the way back and all lines should be tight if it's adjusted properly. I really like the chicken Loop idea but if I bought an ozone bar would that fix this whole problem?


Ahhhhh, ok good.

I watched the video. It's pretty good but it's based on the assumption that all bars are tuned the same. Most "modern" or current bars are very close to the same but earlier bars can have variation. The HQ bar that comes on the Apex series hadn't changed much since the Apex 1 and there is a fairly broad semi-fixed adjustment range in it as indicated by the adjustment knots on the center leaders.

Anyway, Snake's response in this thread is IMO pretty dead on in its description of cause and effect and what to look for. And really the best way IMO to be sure you have an accurate measure of line stretch is to remove the lines from the bar and check just the lines as bars do have variations.

My bet here is the lines are probably fine. And trying with the lines on the new knots may be better for you as it will change the stall point.

It sounds to me like the lack of wind is the biggest issue. The Apex 3 is a good kite but it takes a bit of piloting to keep the 7.5m (rated up to 4- 34mph per HQ LOL) in the air let alone pulling in 6-10 mph. For equivalent comparison, the Ozone Access V7 8m wind range starts at 12kts (13mph+) to get in the air reliably with a 160lb rider.

But that doesn't help with your reach issues.

Replacing the bar with an Ozone bar will help a bit but unless there is a used one out there, the cost of a new Oz bar would be as much as the value of the entire kite.

Some people have used various pigtails/leaders to adjust the depower range on HQs with older bars to allow them to reach things more easily. But the trade-off was a reduction in bar throw and depower range.

Removal of the chicken loop and replacement with a snap shackle will also shorten the reach while retaining bar throw and depower range.






jjesseday - 20-2-2019 at 02:11 PM

Yes! Stall point, that's what I'm hoping it'll fix. But I k kw I need to with grown longer arms, convert chicken Loop, or a snap shackle..... So much work! Haha. Thanks for advice. It really helps!

jjesseday - 20-2-2019 at 06:43 PM

HECK YEAH! thank you all, it was a line issue. I tied the power lines both in one knot towards the bar and she flew beatifully. Not only could I feel power when I pulled the bar but it would lose power when I let go of the bar. And I could also feel a big difference when I adjusted the trim strap. Before, adjusting the trim all the way out or all the way in and I couldn't feel any difference.... This was in 6-10 mile an hour wind, static.
Thanks again all!