Power Kite Forum - future of the Arc

future of the Arc

markite - 26-3-2019 at 11:15 AM

well for quite a while the Charger 3 hasn't been in stock as each size sold - i think maybe an initial run was done and then no further production?
The 2019 price lists are no longer showing it in the product listing.
Is that the end of the arc?

jeffnyc - 26-3-2019 at 01:19 PM

I think I remember an interview somewhere a while back where they said they were doing the Ch3 as custom orders, but the "coming soon" message does make it look like you can't even order them anymore. I assume they are not flying off the shelves like the Aero. Wouldn't surprise me if they stop making them. Arc users has become a ghost town. It's really too bad, I think the 3 came way too late in the game, everyone moved on to foils and LEI.
I've never even seen a 3 in the wild, come to think of it. Were you thinking of getting one?

markite - 26-3-2019 at 02:29 PM

I never ordered any Charger 3s and haven't seen one up close either. I always wondered just how much evident difference there was in performance compared to the 2s - other than a lighter fabric. I thought about having the lighter fabric would be a benefit on the larger sizes but couldn't justify the cost difference to swap out like I normally would have with each new model.

On a side note (my own personal opinion) that as much as a good number of us like the arcs it was also the die hard arc users that really killed some of the market by driving the used kite prices down. Quite often kites in good shape came up for sale and often were very cheap from people that had moved on from arc and other times people chimed in saying they were priced to high and drove the price down to rock bottom. We all like a good deal so it's understandable. As a dealer it meant the used kites didn't have much value so nobody wanted to spend the high prices on new kites because they could either get a good used kite cheap or many arc users would cycle through upgrading but that died off quick when there wasn't much value in a slightly used kite compared to years ago when you could still get maybe 60% instead of 20%. The net result was many dealers (including myself) just couldn't justify ordering much new stock at all.

And then there is the argument that other styles of kites have really improved in many ways so again less demand for arcs especially when many people don't see them used that much (depending on where you are - around here there are still a good handful out in the winter and buggying)

Bladerunner - 27-3-2019 at 07:39 AM

Arcs never really got accepted on the water and that is where the money is.

It seems like many of the new kites don't drift like they used to. Auto zenith is less important now.

For gust munching the single skins and new LEI seem to be good.

I think arcs developed as far as they can while other style kites are still developing.

BeamerBob - 27-3-2019 at 11:29 AM

As an old guy, I really liked the larger Phantom IIs. I just reaquired a 12 m from Finland. I can't wait to get it to JIBE.

Demoknight - 28-3-2019 at 06:14 AM

I feel you about the used prices. Used Arcs go for pennies on what the sell new in bag. It breaks my heart to see a Charger II up for sale for $350, when a Speed 3 still gets over $900 in most cases. They are amazing kites, but definitely an acquired taste. The launching and landing process has a steep learning curve for someone new to try for their first Arc. I get it. Why bother with all that when you can just pump the kite, walk the lines and side launch an LEI, or land a foil with a brake handle? Unfortunately I think Arcs are intimidating to most people that have never gotten the chance to fly one, and they see how hard it can be to launch or land one and get turned off. That makes it even harder to pass the chicken loop to someone to try out for themselves. If more people could experience them in the air before they learned the proper easy ways to launch and land, it would be an easier sell. Kite demos are becoming few and far between, which can't be helping. A lot of kiters in Chicago had never seen an Arc before.

Once I was on Montrose Beach getting setup, and I launched my Charger II and left it attached to me, but totally ignored it above me while I changed my shoes, packed away my kite bag, put on my helmet, grabbed my sun glasses, pulled the tow rope off my buggy, and pushed my buggy around to get ready to sit down in it before diving the kite and taking off down the beach. I passed by my buddy Mike, the local kite surf shop owner and trainer, and he said, "Man, that is a stable kite! What is that?" He even sells a ton of Peter Lynn stuff, but mostly only their LEIs. I filled him in, but he honestly had no idea about Arcs at all. He still hasn't ever flown one. I always offered, but he would always be busy with students or sales and unable to take the time.

Feyd - 29-3-2019 at 04:44 AM

There really hasn't been any improvement in Arc design since the Charger and IMO the Charger was the beginning of the end for Arcs. Between it's high level of performance which I think was more than what your average arc enthusiast really wanted/needed and the production issues and how Vliegerop (Peter Lynn) dealt with the affected kites, it was a real blow to arc support and reputation. The Charger 1 was essentially the modern equivalent to the F-Arc reputation and performance wise but with the added burden of screwed up production.

The Phantom 2 was a great kite. But everyone whined about the graphics and how it didn't "fly like the original" which to this day I can't help but shake my head about.

The Charger 2. 1st, SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN CALLED THE CHARGER 2 IMO. First, it looks like a Synergy which let's face it, everyone agrees the Syn was a great kite. Calling it a Charger didn't really instill confidence in anyone who had issues with the Charger 1. 2nd. IT FLIES LIKE THE SYN. Much calmer, gentler, less aggressive. It really should have been called the Synergy 2 IMO.

The Charger 3. At this point, it's an answer to a question nobody asked. No advances over the Charger 2 beyond the material. Which may be of some benefit as Arcs always suffer from excessive weight but I don't know if this is really of any help as Arcs, apart from F-Arcs, simply aren't light wind kites. Even in the 24m size. Except for maybe Big Blu. That thing was AMAZING and I miss her.

I've recently begun clearing out my supply of arcs. It's been a long process as I refuse to give them away for nothing as I know what goes into making them and I know that with the right know-how, they can do amazing things. To sweeten the deal I've been giving instruction on the kites to those who buy them from me and this goes a long way towards the new owners getting the most out of their new purchase. And I get a kick out of seeing those kites back in the air.

There was once a time here where all we saw were Arcs. For our area, they were the best kites for our wind conditions. Until recently nothing came close. We didn't care about Auto Zenith as it doesn't work in our winds but the gust handling was unmatched.

But now, we have bridled kites that manage 90% of that gust handling with 10% of the hassle that Arcs can be. Arcs were WAAAAAAY ahead of the curve. Took other companies over a decade to make a kite that has the performance that the F-Arc offered. But now that has changed and a lot of designs have caught up or surpassed the Arcs.

Arc design still has value. They fly great, the ground handling takes some practice and if I were to do things to an Arc it would be to improve on that. Split vents to inflate it more like conventional kites. Magnetic keepers in the spar pocket tips to help with clamshell launches. (Depicting multiple launch methods in the owner's manual beyond just what is done in steady onshore winds.) Keep the lightweight material. Make a Hi-AR version, like a modern F-Arc etc...

But even if you did. At this point, the sales numbers probably wouldn't warrant it. When PL dealers don't even take the time to know enough about their product line, selling only LEI low hanging fruit, and the distributor isn't teaching them about other options, what hope is there? Your average LEI rider doesn't want to learn how to fly a new kite. And as a dealer, how can you sell something you don't have the skillset to fly or demonstrate the performance of?

Arcs had an amazing run. And they have an amazing history. For my part, I have a few that I'm keeping on had until my nostalgic feelings for them become overpowered by the sense that they should be flown, not just kept for the sake of keeping them. My 15m Ph2 I'm keeping as it literally saved my life. My 12m Phantom 2, just because it's a great kite and it has had one small repair which, in today's arc market, makes it more valuable to me to fly than to sell. My 12m Charger 2, just in case I have a chance to get on the water again I think it would be a fun kite. And my F-Arc 1200. Because it's old and a riot to be able to hang on the upwind with a kite that old against kites like Ozone R1s. Even if it totally sucks on the downwind. :D

flyguy0101 - 29-3-2019 at 06:43 AM

I agree the prices have dropped expotentially given I just sold two for what I considered a screaming good deal but I wanted them to get used. I did keep and will always keep my 15m charger 2 and could not agree more it should have been called a syn 2 absolutely love the kite and since my kiting is so infrequent, it is nice to throw up a kite that I know is stable and somewhat forgiving for the pilot- also I like the bar pressure to enhance my popeye arms:D - look forward to the day I put it up and all the noobs are confused having never seen such beauty in the air

PistolPete - 29-3-2019 at 03:32 PM

Ode To The Arc

A kiwi inventor in the eighties
Thought of kites as a way to sail
Some thought he is of the crazies
But first listen to this tail

He patented a wing for traction
And another for arch style design
At the time seemed an abstraction
Not following any party line

With several eureka moments
Then waiting for wind to confirm
Realizing good omens
Was time to establish a firm

S-Arc, F-Arc, Guerilla, Phantom
Bomba, Venom, Vortex, Scorpions
New products scheduled per annum
Resembling inflated flying accordions

Buggy, landboard, dirtsurfer, ski
Boat, surfboard, twintip, foil
All emerging markets of glee
Soon competitors start to coil

Seeing innovation move on
Extraction via licensing hand off
Some remember the phenomenon
The rest just shrug and scoff

Fondness for stacking
With autozenith comfort
Mostly get wisecracking
Left feeling encumbered

Long live the Arc kite
In all its glory
Still a delight
That is the real story

Copyright 2019

B-Roc - 29-3-2019 at 04:02 PM

Violets are blue,
Roses are red.
Long live the foil,
Arcs are dead!
:P :evil: :lol:

Bladerunner - 30-3-2019 at 09:53 AM

It was the 90's. Flash Austin on the beach. Flying a flexifoil with buggy and offering to teach. Soon he included a skim board and sign. Saving money for Hawaii. Life was fine.

He landed an Maui and all could see. What the future of kiting was going to be. Then Wipikat showed up with an inflated LE. People moved from land to water defying history.

Fixed bridle, inflated LE. I tried them both. Neither was for me. Then one day an arc I did see. Inflated but still no bladder to leak. Best design ever. Until the Peak.

I'll never be normal. My life is my own ride. I will always be seen with an arc at my side. Some kites are better and we all know why. For ME nothing beats a Phantom in the sky. Take my arcs? I dare you to try!

markite - 30-3-2019 at 06:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc

Violets are blue,
Roses are red.
Long live the foil,
Arcs are dead!
:P :evil: :lol:

There once was a girl from Nantucket
who saw it was gusty and thought F_ck it!
But pulled out her arc and rode until dark
And to her foil friends watching she yelled "Suck it!"
:P

BeamerBob - 30-3-2019 at 07:01 PM

Where did all these awesome poets come from?!?! Except Broc! 😲😲
Thanks for the deep history lesson Feyd. I'm going to take good care of Blu and aim to give her a ride at JIBE in a month. I need to break out the F arc if it's mostly onshore, and plan on many miles from my new to me 12m Phantom II.

pbc - 31-3-2019 at 04:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

...and plan on many miles from my new to me 12m Phantom II.

Oh yeah, I logged another 30 miles on your old PII 12m last Sunday, Bobby. I'm a little rusty on the timing of my upwind turns, but the kite remembers everything.

Scott took a ride on a shiny 13m Venom I keep in my quiver. That's a solid flyer as well. There's so much to love in these kites.

BeamerBob - 31-3-2019 at 10:23 AM

This forum needs a like button!

Windstruck - 31-3-2019 at 11:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

This forum needs a like button!

I know you have an outstanding excuse, but I can't believe we won't be seeing you at IBX this week. We will sojourn on without you of course, but it just won't be the same!

markite - 31-3-2019 at 01:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pbc

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

...and plan on many miles from my new to me 12m Phantom II.

BeamerBob - 31-3-2019 at 02:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

This forum needs a like button!

I know you have an outstanding excuse, but I can't believe we won't be seeing you at IBX this week. We will sojourn on without you of course, but it just won't be the same!

It's nice to be missed but I know everything will go smoothly. I'll aim to make up for lost time in year 7!

pbc - 31-3-2019 at 08:43 PM

Love the Jeopardy dig, Mark. :-)

markite - 31-3-2019 at 08:53 PM

I was thinking you might come up with something truly eloquent Phillip.

I changed it to Final JeopARCy

just for this thread

soliver - 1-4-2019 at 05:15 AM

I like to fly kites,
but my name is not Fred,
Never flown an Arc,
I fly Bedsheets instead.

Demoknight - 6-4-2019 at 04:57 AM

I see that your sheets
Perform marvelous feats
Especially when the wind is dead
Both of us together
Make something better
Because I will be flying the air bed

mougl - 11-4-2019 at 02:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by markite

There once was a girl from Nantucket
who saw it was gusty and thought F_ck it!
But pulled out her arc and rode until dark
And to her foil friends watching she yelled "Suck it!"
:P

LMAO!!!!

mougl - 11-4-2019 at 02:31 PM

Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
I stink at writing poems,
RACE KITES!

PistolPete - 19-4-2019 at 12:42 PM

Is that it :dunno:

https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/water/products/foil-ki... :wow:

New Logo :thumbup:

No Arcs

Opportunity for Pansh :smug:

What Arc would you want Pansh to replicate :D

22.5m and 18m ChargerIII to start with :yes:

g00fba11 - 19-4-2019 at 06:11 PM

Arc memories. I had one or 2 once upon a time. A couple I really miss.

BeamerBob - 19-4-2019 at 08:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by g00fba11

Arc memories. I had one or 2 once upon a time. A couple I really miss.

It would be closer to accurate to say you had all of them at one time!

kitejumping - 4-6-2019 at 01:58 PM

I still use my 8m, 12m, 15m, 22.5m Charger V3's regularly for snowkiting, they are easier to handle than race kites when looping for climbing mountains. I also have an 8m Nova, I would say as far as foil kites go it is most similar to the arc's but with less bar pressure. Some drone footage with a 15m Charger 3 (blue kite) in this video: