Power Kite Forum

Second Kite for Snow Kiting?

planthead - 23-8-2007 at 10:05 AM

Hey everyone,

New to the forum and pretty new to kites. Picked up a 4.0 samauri last winter and pulled an old set of skis out of the closet and made a go of it. The kite kicked my ass a few times but I had a blast! Was hoping to try land boarding with it this summer, but this summer was all work and no play:( so now I'm starting to think about the colder months and figure I need another kite.

Light wind days in the winter (less than15mph) seem to be the norm for me here in Northern Minnesota during the winter and the good wind days last year never seemed to line up consistently with my available time so Im thinking I need another bigger kite for those light wind days.

I'm 165lbs and plan on ditching the long boards in favor of skate ski's for this no snow trend and a snowboard on the rare chance I ever see anything again resembling powder.

I'm not adverse to used gear and any advice on size and model would be greatly appreciated.

leebrianh - 23-8-2007 at 10:36 AM

I have Ozone Frenzy and Manta for snowkiting and love them both. 07 Frenzy 10M is my main kite and I weigh 150lb.

For less lift, I heard Ozone Access is a good kite but I haven't flown them.

If you find Ozone too pricy, you might want to consider HQ Montana II or Apex. HQ makes good products for money.

Above kites are all depower kites and if you never flown depower, you need to take some time to get used to it.

Hope this helps. - Brian

powerzone - 23-8-2007 at 12:48 PM

I agree with brian... go the depower route. fixed bridle can really kick your butt as you have seen already.

just buy my 2005 frenzy listed in the FOR SALE section.

leebrianh - 23-8-2007 at 01:13 PM

I didn't bother to mention because most people are looking for "less expensive" kites but since "powerzone" replied back.....

Get Flysurfer Phycho3 if you can. My favorate kite among many depower kites. - Brian

B-Roc - 23-8-2007 at 01:53 PM

Depower would definately be nice but I'm a little confused why you want a bigger kite when you said the 4m kicked your butt.

How much below the 15mph mark is the wind typcially? I mean is your average wind 10mph or 5mph? That's a big difference in a fixed bridle kite (not so much for a depowerable).

Anyway, if you go the fixed bridle route, and you like the Samuari, the Cult is its new replacement.

A 6m would fit nicely above your 4m and you could round your quiver out with a 2m which would give you a nice spread for all but the lowest wind days (though based on your weight a 3, 5, 7m quiver would be better in the fixed bridle kite category).

I still fly fixed bridle foils and while I can see the benefit of depower and am considering going that route for the winter, you can definately get by with fixed bridled kites if you fly them smart and know where to park or move them through the window.

Depending upon your budget and how much lift you want, fixed bridle kites to consider are the Cult or Haka (more lifty). The Rage or Blade (more lifty). The Beamer or Crossfire (more lifty). The Pepper or Reactor. The Buster or Brooza. Radsail Pros. Bego (its like skiing with a race car that also has lift).

Or there is depowerable kites but those aren't my thing (though I skied with a guy last year who spent the whole season on a PL Venom 13m - that was one sweet kite with an enormous wind range).

planthead - 23-8-2007 at 06:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by B-Roc
Depower would definately be nice but I'm a little confused why you want a bigger kite when you said the 4m kicked your butt.

How much below the 15mph mark is the wind typcially? I mean is your average wind 10mph or 5mph? That's a big difference in a fixed bridle kite (not so much for a depowerable).


You might have a good point on wether I really have the need to go to a bigger kite. Given my skill level I might not be getting everything out of the one I have. Unless the wind was really blowing 15mph+ I would have a hard time moving up wind.

As far as wind speeds go, beyond my personal recollections, I found the averages for International Falls, MN on this web site

http://www.berner.com/sales/energy_windspeed.html

and they indicate that the average windspeed for my region Dec - Feb is about 8mph. I just seem to remember lots of weekends where there was not enough wind for me to do anything. Just looking for a way to get more kite time in.

B-Roc - 24-8-2007 at 05:41 AM

If the average winds are 8mph and you weigh 165# you are going to need something like a 7-9m foil. I'm 145 and depending upon the snow cover I'd be using my 8.5 blade or 7m jojo in those circumstances.

But here is where aspect ratio and kite control comes in. If you are on a bigger kite and you start to get spanked by gusts you want to move it up the window to shed some of the power (but if its a kite like the blade and you move it up the window too fast - you are going to get air - may be good or bad depending upon your comfort). Lower A/R kites you can move higher up the window and they tend to have lesser pull so their is less risk of them taking you up as they travel up.

Also, if they are on handles, you can hit the brakes to slow them but again, if you are on a kite like the bego, you'll hit the brakes and move the kite back into the window where it will actually increase in power and when your release you'll get a turbo charged type boost in power.

Sounds to me a bigger, low A/R kite is what you are looking for so you may want to consider another Samuari / Cult or something like a beamer / buster / pepper / rage depending upon your money.

I really love the JOJO ET Instincts and would recommend those to you as well. Not super popular but uber stable and predictable and they blend low-level lift with some decent float and solid power.

Bladerunner - 24-8-2007 at 07:50 AM

With low winds like that it is a tough call. Most depower kites need at least 8 + mph to be useful. This could be frustrating for you.
What I find problematic about fixed foils is the lack of range. Often the wind is much stronger as you get out on the lake. Sometimes it drops when you are at the middle.
If you want a kite that will perform at 8mph I think you may need a 7m or so fixed bridle.
I think you should find it much easier to stay upwind with minimal power on skis over a snowboard.

powerzone - 24-8-2007 at 09:38 AM

again.... the Ozone Frenzy 10m......

notice how CHASTA doesn't fly fixed bridle.....

Bladerunner - 24-8-2007 at 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by powerzone
again.... the Ozone Frenzy 10m......

notice how CHASTA doesn't fly fixed bridle.....



YUP, If you want a depower that Ozone is a great kite at a good price !

I expect Chasta rarely rides in 8mph wind ! :wink2:

krumly - 24-8-2007 at 07:44 PM

planthead

I kite ski in the winter around the Twin Cites. I've been out on Island Lake near Duluth, Bearhead Lake SP in Ely, Scenic SP near Marcell. Our winter winds are like summer - gusty, and generally lightish.

I'm 129 lbs and fly depower foils in the 7-9 m range in winds from 8-20 mph. When it's blowing 15+ I can use a 3.5 m fixed foil that also have depower bridals that let me use it on a bar or handles for 20+. I have a very light, fixed bridle valved foil for use in light winds below 8 mph.

By skate skis do you mean skiboards/snowblades? I learned toi kite ski on a pair of Line 95 cm and they work great on wet and crud. When you have hard blown drift over powder, they break through eaier and you catch a tip. Face plant. For softer snow or ice, when you need stability or float, I have 155's. Never have learned to snowboard.

Go depower and get a harness. Set-up the Sami with a QR Wichard safety shackle and a strop an fly it from handles with the harness and take a load off.

krumly

planthead - 27-8-2007 at 09:39 AM

Thanks for the info on the kites B-Roc, its really helping me think through the choices. The Frenzy Powerzone has up for sale is tempting, but I think It might be a little to much kite to start the season.

Why are fixed bridals a little better in low wind vs. a depower?

Quote:
Originally posted by krumly

By skate skis do you mean skiboards/snowblades?

Go depower and get a harness. Set-up the Sami with a QR Wichard safety shackle and a strop an fly it from handles with the harness and take a load off.

krumly


As far as skate skis I honestly am not sure what exactly I am referring to. My current setup are 190's and almost 20 years old. I just want something a lot shorter and more manageable.

I have a harness and have only flown my Sami with a bar. What do I gain by flying it with handles?

powerzone - 27-8-2007 at 09:48 AM

fixed bridle generate more power size for size compared to depower.

as far as "better in low winds" i don't agree... that is a preferance issue.

SnowBird had a good kite size scale posted awhile back showing power/size/pull .... maybe he could post that again.???

the 10m Frenzy is not too big, unless you weigh 100lbs or so. probably pulls like a 6-7m fixed Bridle....

as soon as you begin to jump you'll want bigger size.... we do fine on 10m flysurfers and frenzys up to 20mph on land. we weigh 150lbs.

leebrianh - 27-8-2007 at 10:05 AM

Agree with powerzone. I prefer Fixed bridle for buggying and depower for snowkiting.

Frenzy 10M has been my most usable kite on snow and I weigh 150lb. - Brian

B-Roc - 27-8-2007 at 02:41 PM

Planthead - I'm 145#s and 5'7" and ski on 180s, 185s andn 190s but mostly on the 190s and 180s.

My 180s are a softer recreational ski and my 190s are a racing ski (the 185s are a mogul ski so mostly reserved for the mountains).

The 180s and 190s of mine are about 15 years old but very well maintained (I use to compete so I'm used to tuning and caring for my own gear).

Old is not necessarily bad especially if you are in fields or the outback where you don't know what you may ski over. I could care less if I damage these skis so I use them hard and repair them if needed.

If the surface is decent and you aren't jumping all around, long and stiff skis are a hoot for straight on speed runs. I was went over 45 mph this year and the year before that I had a few runs around 50mph - that would be pretty unreasonable on shorties and not possible at all on ice on shorties or super cuts.

I don't like sidecut skis when I'm kiting so the older models are actually better, IMO for the terrain I ski. Hold a straight ski on edge and you'll hold a lot of power - super cuts can be more difficult - for me at least.

I would go with a 10m depower if that is the route you want to consider. I may this year but love my foils for simplicity - especially because I do a lot of boarding at lunch breaks during the work week (I do think they are better in light wind but I don't have as much experience with depowers)

planthead - 28-8-2007 at 06:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by B-Roc
I would go with a 10m depower if that is the route you want to consider. I may this year but love my foils for simplicity - especially because I do a lot of boarding at lunch breaks during the work week (I do think they are better in light wind but I don't have as much experience with depowers)


Is the setup time on a depower considerably longer?

There is a large lake (approx. 2mi wide by 6mi long) a couple blocks from my work so I too did some kiting on my lunch break. After travel and setup I could maybe get a half hour in if I was lucky.

powerzone - 28-8-2007 at 07:10 AM

it is faster setup on a depower bar if you don't take the lines off .... just wind them on the bar, fold the kite in half, stuff all the bridles inside the fold, place thebar on the outside wingtip, roll up and you're good to go. 1 minute.

krumly - 2-9-2007 at 10:09 PM

planthead -

I find my fixed bridle kites all fly better with handles than on a "standard" bar. The typical bar set-up that comes with fixed bridle kites has the front lines attached to either end of the bar and the brakes tied together and activated as a safety feature thru the center of the bar.

You don't get the ability to steer with the brakes this way, and you loose the nuance of flying with handles. The kite is generally more sluggish in steering. But without a strop with the handles, your arms carry all the load.

There are "crossover bar setups" for use with fixed bridle kites that mix in brake with the front lines when you steer. Do some research on this forum and you'll find several threads with how-to info if you're interested in setting one up.

krumly