Power Kite Forum

Framed Kites vs. Foils

elkiter - 7-11-2007 at 12:53 PM

About few years ago, a German buggier named Stephan Knickmeier dominated the European Racing scene using a dual line delta kite called the "S-kite".
He became a two-time World Champion (more appropriately Euro Champion due to absence of participants outside Europe) From what I understand, he was already competing with Euro riders using Boras and Jojos and Quadrifoils etc. at that time.

Incidentally during the 2000 Challenge, the Dutch rider who won the race was also using a Framed kite (i.e "C" wing otherwise known as C-Quad by PL)

My question is, why aren't more riders/buggiers using Framed kites for racing?
I would think that Framed kites are more efficient in higher winds.
What do you think?

Thanks,
e

B-Roc - 7-11-2007 at 03:28 PM

I've seen the S-kite and C-quad in action. The C-quad is a PIA if you brake a rod and is not as simple as a foil to set up or pack away.

My guess is that if they were the cat's meow you would still see more in use, but you don't and therefore, I'm led to believe that, efficient or not, they aren't the best thing out there for speed AND convenience AND ease of use.

NPWfever - 7-11-2007 at 04:51 PM

this is a bit odd

http://kitesurfingschool.org/kiteski.jpg

coreykite - 8-11-2007 at 12:18 PM

Hey Sailors,
First one needs to care about racing.
Not all who buggy want to race.

If you win the race...
Who is going to care?

Races are scheduled events.
Too bad the wind (and weather) doesn't consult our schedules.

Races are organized events.
I already live and work in an organized, man-made, constructed world.
I like kites and the buggy as it allows me to play with natural, elemental forces.

We fly foils:
Foils are very convenient - Pack small, set-up quickly
The design rewards skills (better flyer-better performance)
No spars to break or loose.

This is kite/buggy.
It's not rocket-surgery.

I buggy most every weekend with wind.
Love to buggy with others.
As soon as a race begins... The conversations stop.

Now if you want to offer, say a few thousand dollars to the winner...


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

BeamerBob - 8-11-2007 at 12:51 PM

I can see having a friendly race between friends to sharpen skills or compare equipment, but the joy would be in the comparison, the learning, the proof. I would want to be talking before, during, and after.

art_lessing - 8-11-2007 at 01:39 PM

really the only reason to race is to push our personal limits...I was on the beach racing a dog and I had to really punch it so he wouldn't get me and I found my self going faster then ever...so I think that a bit of a competition adds to the excitement...and of course the crashes :evil: and laughing about it later

DAKITEZ - 8-11-2007 at 07:49 PM

What about one of these revolution blasts ?
http://www.revkites.com/main/Blast_4.8/s/67f8cd4bed45a4a6d92...
Anyone try one or see it in person ?

Pablo - 8-11-2007 at 08:08 PM

Best way to race, sit around the table having breakfast with guys like JEllis, Eli, Slawek, then go to the beach and show each other a few things, make sure the new guys like myself get their questions answered, then go out and race. Push to the limit, not much chatting on the course, but lots of figuring how to beat someone to the next mark, then after the race, sit around and bench race some more, get new ideas, practice some new stuff and get some advice from guys faster than you. Go back to camp and sit around the campfire yapping about how great the day was.

In my mind this is the way that the sport moves forward. Same thing goes for freestyle.

elkiter - 9-11-2007 at 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by B-Roc
I've seen the S-kite and C-quad in action. The C-quad is a PIA if you brake a rod and is not as simple as a foil to set up or pack away.

My guess is that if they were the cat's meow you would still see more in use, but you don't and therefore, I'm led to believe that, efficient or not, they aren't the best thing out there for speed AND convenience AND ease of use.


I think one reason why we don't see more of the framed kites in buggying is because, they're are not the "norm". So we're stuck in "status quo", because no-one embraces what they aren't used to. In return kite designers would also adopt to the market, and therefore no longer push their ideas. Who knows maybe there might have been a product that solved the spar-breaking issues, if they have more buyers. Becasue they will continue to develop.
I don't believe that ease of usage and packability are the main reasons why we are seeing more foil users in buggying. If this is true, why aren't foil more embraced in kiteboarding? That's because LEI in kiteboarding is what's considered the norm. :)

e

Bladerunner - 9-11-2007 at 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NPWfever
this is a bit odd

http://kitesurfingschool.org/kiteski.jpg


That is Corey Roesler ( sp ) and his Kite ski ? Circa about 1998 ? As intersting as his kites was his real out kite bar. I've heard more than one person say they wish they still had one. Kiteboarding wouldn't be what it is if not for Corey and his Dad working things out !

Corey and that kite traveled extemely fast. Blowing the winsurfers away :cool:

We have a local that buggies with a Rev. on occasion :cool2:

coreykite - 9-11-2007 at 12:01 PM

Hey Sailors,
The "other" Corey here.
Cory spells his name differently than I do (But they both sound the same)

The photo with his "KiteSki" was probably more like 1988 than 1998.
The kite is a Skip Parks designed Banshee wing.
The curved leading edge was unique at the time.

His exploits in the Gorge on the Columbia River are legendary.
His best efforts were downwinders.
Those framed wings didn't have the upwind ability of the current bladder kites.
His control bar included a take-up reel that wound both lines at the same time.
A lockable hand-brake allowed the flyer to adjust line-length for changing conditions.

To answer another earlier question about why bladder kites dominate on water... Consider the difference between the Science of Marketing and the Science of Aerodynamics.
Foil kites react badly to being filled with water.
To grow the market, one needs product that even the total novice can learn to operate relatively easily.
Bladder kites don't sink.
I have done water traction with foils.
One must learn how to fly without putting the kites down.
That takes time and practice.
This world seems increasingly full of "Right Now".

Just my opinion.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

awindofchange - 9-11-2007 at 12:04 PM

The single skinned framed kites (ie..c-quad & Rev Blast series) are incredible kites and in my opinion have more power per size than any foil. Their ultra thin profile with single skinned sail give them the ability to cut through the air very fast, much faster than a foil can. Their upwind performance is also excellent if not better than most foils. I was racing around with Joe Hadzicki at the 2007 NABX, I was on a 3.5 Razor, Joe on the Powerblast 2-4 (2 meter kite). I could barely keep up with him and he cut upwind better than I....I blamed it on the fact that Joe is about 100 pounds lighter than I. :frog: At the 2006 NABX both myself and Joe were out on our Powerblast 4-8's in winds that were appx. 2-5 mph. We buggies all afternoon when hardly nothing else was in the air and we packed up well after sunset. We didn't set any land speed records for sure but still had a great time and were moving along just fine.

One downside to the framed kites is that they are indeed framed. One good solid crash into the ground usually always means you are replacing a rod or two. They are harder to pack up than a foil (not much harder) and they do take up a lot more room when stored than a foil, especially the C-quad which can only be packed down to a circular disk of 2-3 foot diameter. Compared to a foil that will fit in a bag of only a couple inches diameter this is a huge difference. The other problem is that when they are packed they have to be cared for so that the frames do not get broken when stored. You cant just huck them into the back of the truck and park a buggy on them or you will be doing repairs the next time you want to ride.

The other downside is that you have to actually fly the framed kite. Both the C-quad and the Revolution take some skill and knowledge to get them to fly and even more skill to get them to perform at their maximum capability. You can't just tug them into the air and pull left and right and go. You have to fly all four lines to get the kite to turn, also have to use the brake lines extensively during flight to get the power and the control out of the kite. If you don't know how to fly these kites the way they need to be flown they just don't perform. This is a lot more complicated than a foil that you simply tug in the air and get dragged.

In the hands of a skilled pilot the framed kites are awesome performers.

speleopower - 10-11-2007 at 08:54 PM

I really really really really wish I still had my kiteski!!!!! It was bad@#s.
Has anyone seen one for sale in recent years??????

I really like the reel bar but sold it to pay for a Quadrifoil Competition XL back in 1999.:mad: The reel bar made flying my Wipika very easy.

Scott

Chip - 14-11-2007 at 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dlish89
What about one of these revolution blasts ?
http://www.revkites.com/main/Blast_4.8/s/67f8cd4bed45a4a6d92...
Anyone try one or see it in person ?


I have a PowerBlast 2-4 & a 4-8, along with a full complement of foils. The 2-4 is almost always the first kite I take out and the last one I put away. I just stand and fly it like a smaller Rev as often as buggy with it. The 4-8 is a great buggy engine when the 2-4 won't cut it, but it's not as graceful as it's half size brother.

I have to agree completely with awindofchange with the benefits of foils, they are easier to fly, faster to setup & pack, very compact, easy to harness and are really really hard to break. Which is certainly why most people use them.

However, apart from learning to fly, how often do people just stand there flying a foil? Almost never, because they're not that fun to fly once you're learned how. They're a blast when they're pulling you 30-mph across the field or beach or playa, but that's about it.

It's a lot like comparing a manual transmission to an automatic transmission. Anyone who can drive can use an automatic, but you have to take extra time to learn how to drive a stick. But how many sports cars are manual transmission? Most, because you're more a part of the experience, and with sufficient skill you can get better performance than the automatic. (Be it acceleration, or gas mileage) But then why are most of the cars on the road automatics?

You have to really fly a Rev. Standing still or bugging, you have to constantly tweak and adjust it to keep it flying well. The difference of being at full power or just slightly over/under is a minor tweak of the wrist. And for me, that's half of the fun of flying them.

The Benefits (in the hands of a skilled flier):

1) Wider wind range than foils, two Revs cover the same range as 6 of my foils.
2) Better upwind performance. I'm able to tack upwind about 15-20° more than with my foils. And if you have momentum, you can coast directly upwind if you sheet out the kite.
3) Pull, per square meter, a Rev has twice the pull of a foil, if you can lock in the power.
4) Safety, you can always sheet-out the kite and remove ALL pull. Very handy on those gusty days when you go from not enough to keep the kite in the sky, to enough to rip your arms off and back again every 5 minutes.
5) Low wind performance, because the kite has a ridged structure, it is ideally suited to low shifty winds. During the low wind shifty mornings last year at NABX, the 4-8 was my best friend. And when the wind drops too much you just stand and stunt fly with low wind float techniques.
6) Acceleration is slower to start, but quickly tops a foil, mostly because you can safely handle more kite in higher winds.
7) Top Speed. In theory, you should be able to top the speed of any foil, because you have a lot less drag. But in practice you'll be hard pressed to hold the power long enough to get to serious speed without a harness, which is possible but tricky. So you're faster, for as long as your arms hold out! ;)
8) And of corse, they're allot more interesting to fly, which when it comes down to it is why I really like bugging with my Revs.

Hinderances:

1) Longer Setup/teardown. But hey, what is 5 minutes when you're out playing all day?
2) Pieces to brake. But, once again with enough skill this is not a problem. ;) I've had my 2-4 for almost 4 years, and I've only broken 2 spares. (At the same time, while static flying and trying to show off. Note to self, a dive stop with a 2-4 in 14-mph winds is not bright!)
3) Pancake. If the kite lays down flat, there is very little you can do apart from walking out to stand it up, unless you're on a rough beach or grass and are lucky enough to catch an edge.
4) Harness. It is possible to harness a Rev, but there is a lot more to it than just tying a rope between the handles. The problem is that you need to balance the top and bottom lines to get power, so the pivot point is constantly changing. I've harnessed my 4-8 using a triple line system and 2 pulleys, with a line from the top to bottom of each handle, and the third tying them together with pulleys on either end. It's a bit cumbersome, but overall does the job. I'm working on a streamlined version. ;)
5) Top Speed, see above.

In the confines of racing you have one other problem, if you stall the kite (due to pilot error) it is often difficult to do what is needed to get it back under power, because of kite traffic.


Quote:
Originally posted by awindofchange
I could barely keep up with him and he cut upwind better than I....I blamed it on the fact that Joe is about 100 pounds lighter than I.


I was able to beat Joe with his 2-4 while using my 2-4 on a strait run 2 out of 3 times. I'm almost twice his weight (6' 5" 300lbs) So I don't think you can blame it on weight. ;)

-chip

awindofchange - 14-11-2007 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by awindofchange
I could barely keep up with him and he cut upwind better than I....I blamed it on the fact that Joe is about 100 pounds lighter than I.


I was able to beat Joe with his 2-4 while using my 2-4 on a strait run 2 out of 3 times. I'm almost twice his weight (6' 5" 300lbs) So I don't think you can blame it on weight. ;)

-chip


Thanks Chip for that bit of info...so much for making people believe my loss was due to a weight difference. Guess I need to redeem myself now by practicing more. :karate:
mumble...mumble...mumble...the wind is my friend....mumble:mad: