>I just for curiosity called the Elmer's recording to see if the lakebed was closed because of the recent rains [it is].. The the recording
announced that starting Feb 10, 2008 there will be user fees charged as follows: Daily $15.00, Weekly $30.00, and a season pass for $90.00. They
didn't define what constitutes a season but I'm sure we'll find out later..
Anyhow I wanted to let you know.. I'll put that information on buggythang.org as well as my Elmer's related page..<
We'll find out more about what is a "week pass" too.
Plenty of time to make plans for the Pre-Event.
Maybe explore some other adjacent dry lakes for suitable access and surface conditions.
Perhaps go up to Superior earlier.
I'll also post very complete and precise directions to Superior.
Safen Up! Buggy On!
"Often wrong... Never in doubt"
the coreylamakitemaker4 - 19-12-2007 at 05:07 PM
If it was up to me I would pass on Elmers and spend all of the pre-event at Superior.
Susanmeg - 19-12-2007 at 08:16 PM
I have not checked in the last few months. However i did get an individual's pass last year for NABX and it allowed 'about' ten people to accompany
the indiviudal with a pass, and they do not all have to be in the same vehicle (obviously), but they need to arrive, depart together and all need to
have copies of the permit in the vehicles in the caravan.
i asked Elaine why, with all due respect to her and BLM, why it would not be best for 'about' 10 - 15 indiviudlas to get passes and not get the group
permit for NABX. she had to get back to me, but agreed it was a good question.
she replied with a good answer. she said that due to the overnight facilities, like porta-potties and big communal tent, we were considered a group.
it is entirely possible that with the addition of fees, the rules have changed also.
certainly worth looking into!
Just thought i'd share what i knew-
Happy Holidays to Everyone!
look forward to seeing you all someplace WARM!
Meg
PS~ i agree w/Susan, Elmers has lost its charm for me as well.meg - 19-12-2007 at 08:50 PM
upon re-reading i wasn't as clear as i would have liked to been with the above post.
i believe this new user fee at El Mirage is but the beginning. I fully expect the same to follow at all other lake beds, especially the ones we use.
megcoreykite - 20-12-2007 at 12:57 PM
Hey Sailors,
I did not mean for the proposed user fee plan at El Mirage Dry Lake to sound scary.
It is not a bad thing unless we make it so.
NOTE: This applies to El Mirage only - Not Ivanpah! Not nabx!
El Mirage has been over-run by motorized vehicles in the past few years. While long a favored place to get away - Close to the Greater L.A. area and
all... The large increase has strained the resources beyond the limit.
The B.L.M. is mandated by Congress to raise a portion of their operating budget - Typically through user-fees and such.
If this fee idea helps curtail the rampant destruction of the surrounding desert area and helps reduce the noise-pollution we complain about on the
weekends, while helping maintain one of the most fun and accessible dry-lakes we have... Then I can see the fee as a good thing.
We might move the Elmer's part of pre-event up to Wednesday or Thursday, catching the get-off-work-in-LA-and-scoot-to-the-playa-folks Friday night and
caravanning up to Superior Saturday morning.
There will always be those snubbing their noses at us at Elmer's and heading straight to Superior, but Elmer's represents our buggy-beginnings in the
desert. It is a suitable portal for beginners and first-time desert-buggy-riders to find a welcome amongst us and for the weeS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s
activities to begin.
I'll find out more about a "group-rate" or some-such.
They have been kind to us at Elmer's in the past, as we show respect for the lake-bed and for the BLM folks tasked with managing it.
If fees/costs to gather at Elmer's are prohibitive, there is always the "go-straight-to-Superior" group and the option of a variety of other (over 90
total) dry lake-beds in the Mojave.
We're staying on top of this development as it will also impact our annual informal buggy gatherings at El Mirage: Sprang Thang (typically the weekend
after Memorial Day) and Fall Thang (typically the weekend after Labor Day).
I'll also watch where the money is really going.
I like the idea of the money going to improve and manage the resources we use, not build a new federal building in Sacramento.
But that's just me.
By the way... Out here in the Mojave Desert (California, Nevada, Arizona), you'll find many of the kiter-folks to be in favor of user-fees.
We see the results of unmanaged use every time we go out to the river, lake or playa.
Safen Up! Buggy On!
"Often wrong... Never in doubt"
the coreylamalunchbox - 20-12-2007 at 01:31 PM
...glass half full approach on the fee...I like it....I was thinking that it was just another $15 on top of the $30 dollars it takes me to drive there
and back...I guess it's good as long as it goes to the Lake Bed and not some politician's decision to choose between Coach and Business.
BTW, please post directions to Superior, would love to check it out.
Where are those other 90 dry lake beds,,please share ; )
My first time to NABX this year...what are the dates for the pre and main events.
Thanks.kitemaker4 - 20-12-2007 at 05:05 PM
I do not feel safe on Elmers with all the people in the fast motorised vehicles flying across the lake bed. When they are making there speed runs I
just felt that I was in danger of being run over. I would rather be on a lake bed with a lot less traffic and noise.
Susanmeg - 20-12-2007 at 07:28 PM
this is one of the problems with using the written word exclusively.
i in no way meant for it to appear as a bad thing. oh contraire, i was excited at the prospect of it making our life much easier. if everyone got
their own individual permit, and we had our own bathroom facilities like the geniuses at dead bird, then i thought there may be no need for the group
permit and insurance. people would be covered by their individual home howners insurance like they are when they do other 'occasional' activities.
it may be wishful thinking that we could take a step back. but there are benfits to individual responsibility.
i jumped to the conclusion...perhaps wrongfully, but it is what i did none the less...anyway, i thought the individual fee of say 30 for the week was
BLM's way of getting a fair amount from each individual without trying to come up with a formula and figure out who was racing and who was a guest
baloney, like in the past few years. it was confusing and frustrating for everyone.
i have no problem giving them a fee, and would be doubley pleased to see it used to maintain the dry lake beds we use.
i was trying to say that i believe blm has identified us as a small but serious and regular user of the lake beds and they are trying to find a fair
way for a give and take exchange of resources.
meggeokite - 21-12-2007 at 12:04 PM
Other than the pre-existing pit toliets and a paved road, what else could the BLM provide at El Mirage?
More rangers to enforce regulations?
Water spigot?
Fire pits?
Official camping locations?
Reservation system for camping?
Guided tours?
Sorry, I don't see what a fee could provide us (other than the permit issue for events). Unless you really want the above things.
The fee, IMO, will not reduce the usage of the location. Especially if they use the fee to "improve" the lakebed. If we are willing to pay the fee,
why wouldn't the OHVs?
SteveDave367 - 21-12-2007 at 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by lunchbox
BTW, please post directions to Superior, would love to check it out.
Where are those other 90 dry lake beds,,please share ; )
Thanks.
Please DON'T post directions to Superior. No offense, Lunchbox, but the reason Superior is a great place to buggy is specifically because there AREN'T
directions and maps posted all over the internet. If you are worthy, you will figure out how to find it; if you need a map posted to an internet
forum, well, ah, perhaps you'd be happier at El Mirage?
Cheers,
DaveDave367 - 21-12-2007 at 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by geokite
More rangers to enforce regulations?
Bingo. Currently, there is exactly one person in the entire 1000 sq mile area which encompasses Elmers, qualified and authorized to issue tickets to
the public. The other 3-4 (a woefully small number) are public "servants" without authorization to make you do anything.
The rabble from LA know this, therefore they are free to burn pallets, leaving nails all over the lakebed; run rampant through the water, leaving ruts
which take decades to smooth out, leave burning hulks, broken bottles and abandoned fireplaces wherever they wish. (Ever buggy through an abandoned
set of fireplace ashes? Lots of fun)
The rangers, the Friends of El Mirage, the local aircraft pilots, and the "old school" buggiers; all work their asses off to combat this, and so far,
are doing a fair job (you'll note the lake seems pretty "primitive" and "pristine" when you visit? It is neither, by a long shot), but it's a losing
battle. User fees will allow them to clean up the lake and environs, enforce speed limits--on the shore of the lake and near camps--perhaps
eliminating the--on average--1-2 deaths by recreation machine there every year, and keep yahoos out of the mud; in the main, to maintain the
beautiful, pristine environment we all know and love. I'll pay the fee happily; I already send $100/year to the Friends of El Mirage to help buy trash
bags and hot dogs for their periodic lake clean-ups.
IMO, it will serve to avoid some of the crowd as well--the worst ones come at night, in ones and twos, or with a whole horde of "friends" drinking
beer and tossing bottles, nails and junk here and there. If they are priced out of the lakebed and take their business elsewhere, it's OK with me.
Cheers,
Davecoreykite - 21-12-2007 at 02:01 PM
Hey Sailors,
A great, good and lively discussion.
These specific user-fees we are talking about apply ONLY to El Mirage Dry Lake in California (administered out of the Barstow BLM Field Office) and
are directed mostly at OHV (motorcycle and quad) users - The predominate users of Elmers.
THIS IS NOT A KITE FEE.
We kite folk are merely caught in the bureaucratic web.
THIS IS NOT A nabx ISSUE.
It is an access and informal gathering issue at El Mirage Dry Lake.
Paying fees will help decrease the now-random access and over-use.
It will decrease quantity (of motors) and (hopefully) increase quality (of the desert experience) for all users.
As to the maps...
I'll soon post a set of clear directions to Superior Dry Lake (above Barstow).
Before exploring more remote areas of the Mojave, I'd suggest a visit to your local bookstore and acquiring a California Gazetteer map book.
Finding good spots on good days is one of the wonderful parts of buggying the desert.
My 5 Lakes are Elmer's, Superior 1, 2 & 3 and Silurian.
Life is tough when your home playa is Ivanpah.
Playa is damp right now.
Wind is blowing right now.
Safen Up! Buggy On!
"Often wrong... Never in doubt"
the coreylamageokite - 21-12-2007 at 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave367
Quote:
Originally posted by geokite
More rangers to enforce regulations?
Bingo. Currently, there is exactly one person in the entire 1000 sq mile area which encompasses Elmers, qualified and authorized to issue tickets to
the public. The other 3-4 (a woefully small number) are public "servants" without authorization to make you do anything.
If it helps, I'll (gulp..) pay it. I have my doubts, but you've spent more time than me there, so I hope you are right!
Cheers
Steve Bateman
Senate Bill will remove BLM/USFS Fees
Lack-O-Slack - 6-1-2008 at 02:50 PM
Okay, gang... write or call your Senators... there is a bill up before the Senate, and supported by California and five other Western States, that
will, once and for all, repeal the "double taxation" of charging fees for public lands usage, and roll back the BLM's fee structures to the former
state, before the FLREA was enacted, illegally. You paid your access fees to El Mirage and all other BLM-"managed" public lands, on April 15th of
every year!!! It's called "taxes", and "taxation without representation", well, you know how we dealt with the first "King George".
Here's the language from the Western Slopes No-Fee Coalition:
Dear Public Lands Supporter:
FYI the following press release was sent out today. Please copy it to
your local media.
The Fee Repeal bill has been given a number: S2438. You can read the
text at www.thomas.loc.gov <http://www.thomas.loc.gov/>. Type in the
bill number then click Search by Bill Number.
It can be tricky to understand since it refers to several other laws and
has language repealing previous repeals, which works like a
double-negative, i.e. the repeal of a repeal is a re-instatement.
Essentially, the bill restores the rules under which the Forest Service,
BLM, Fish & Wildlife Service, and Bureau of Reclamation operated for
over 30 years under the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act. They will
be able to charge for developed campgrounds, swim sites, and boat
launches. No more fees for trailheads, scenic overlooks, roads, parking,
toilets, or picnic tables.
National Park entrance fees are retained, but the National Parks Pass is
reinstated at $50 and the planned NPS increases every 3 years using the
Consumer Price Index are stopped. The America the Beautiful Pass ($80)
goes away.
Please contact your U.S. Representative and both of your U.S. Senators
and ask them to support S2438.
Kitty Benzar, President Western Slope No-Fee Coalition
December 18, 2007
For Immediate Release
More information: Kitty Benzar 970/259-4616 wsnfc@earthlink.net
Bill Would Eliminate Recreation Fees
No-Fee Coalition Hails Proposal, Calls For National Public Lands
Initiative
DURANGO CO A bill introduced by three western Senators on December 10
would repeal the Federal Lands Recreation Act and restore free public
access to millions of acres of federal public lands managed by the
Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and Bureau of Reclamation.
Montana Senators Max Baucus and Jon Tester joined with Idaho Senator
Mike Crapo as original co-sponsors of S2438, the Fee Repeal and Expanded
Access Act of 2007. Baucus and Tester are Democrats, Crapo a Republican.
The Western Slope No-Fee Coalition, which has championed the effort to
end the user fees that began as an experiment in 1996, hailed the bill
as the first step in a national initiative to restore public lands to
public control.
"The Fee Repeal Act will bring an end to a failed experiment that has
for 10 years burdened Americans with a double tax and kept them away
from public lands they have always enjoyed," Benzar said. "I applaud
this bipartisan effort and call on all public lands supporters to
mobilize in support of it."
S2438 would allow National Parks to continue to charge Entrance Fees,
but would return all other federal land management agencies to the
provisions of the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act of 1965, which
governed recreation use fees for 32 years. Fees would be allowed only in
developed campgrounds and swim sites, and at specialized boat launch
facilities. Fees would be specifically prohibited for the use, either
singly or in any combination, of drinking water, wayside exhibits,
roads, overlook sites, visitors' centers, scenic drives, toilet
facilities, or solely for the use of picnic tables. Fees would also be
prohibited for dispersed, undeveloped camping and recreation.
The 1965 rules were repealed in late 1996 by the Recreational Fee
Demonstration Program that came to be known as Fee Demo. Originally
limited to a 2-year experiment at no more than 100 sites, Fee Demo was
repeatedly expanded and extended, but met increasing public resistance.
By 2004, there was so much opposition to Fee Demo that another extension
was unlikely to pass, and the program was set to expire. Instead,
Representative Ralph Regula (R-OH) attached the Federal Lands Recreation
Enhancement Act to a must-pass omnibus appropriations bill, which went
into effect on December 8, 2004.
FLREA, known to its detractors as the Recreation Access Tax, or RAT,
replaced Fee Demo with a permanent fee program. It was never debated on
the floor of the House and was not even introduced in the Senate. Under
FLREA, access fees have multiplied, visitation has declined,
recreational facilities that cannot pay their own way in fees have been
closed, and fee revenue has replaced public funds at the local level.
"Recreation user fees were originally sold as a way for the agencies to
raise supplemental funds to address their backlogged maintenance,"
according to Benzar. "Instead, fee revenue was used for day-to-day
operations and to build facilities that have only added to long-term
maintenance needs. And now we are facing thousands of site closures and
being told they are necessary because there is still no money for the
backlog."
Appropriated funding for recreation has increased by 22% over the past
10 years, but administration and overhead costs have skyrocketed, and
fewer dollars are making it to the ground. Some local areas saw budget
cuts of up to 60% last summer, even though appropriated funding was the
same as the prior year.
Even as local managers were facing huge cuts, a 2006 audit of the
recreation fee program by the Government Accountability Office (GAO
06-1016) found that $296 million in unobligated fee receipts was being
held by the four federal land management agencies that are authorized to
levy fees. A full 93% of National Forests were carrying unobligated fee
accounts, and 58% of Forests had more than a year's fee revenue in their
unobligated fund.
Benzar sees the policy of Fee Retention at the heart of the problem.
"Fee Demo and RAT allowed the local land managers to keep whatever
recreation fee revenue they could raise, instead of returning it to the
Treasury," she said. "Congressional oversight was lost, and appropriated
funding was diverted to other uses. Local managers were left to raise
their own budgets, and their incentives changed from land stewardship to
revenue generation. They began looking at citizens as customers, instead
of as the owners of public lands."
After ten years of increasing reliance on fee revenue, the program will
not be easy to uproot. Benzar is calling on public land users and
supporters to rally behind the fee repeal bill as the first step in a
new National Public Lands Initiative.
"Numerous state legislatures, county commissions, city councils, and
civic organizations have passed resolutions opposing Fee Demo and RAT,"
said Benzar. "We will be asking all of them, and additional groups as
well, to support S2438.
"For a decade, the agencies have been acting as if they own our public
lands," she concluded. "It's time for the real owners - the American
people - to step up and assert our rights. This bill offers us a golden
opportunity to take back our precious public lands."
One important point...
Lack-O-Slack - 6-1-2008 at 03:38 PM
Please note the paragraph in my post on the impending repeal of the FLREA which denotes the GAO (Government Accountability Office) investigations
results with regard to the USE of your money when paying fees to BLM or USFS...
This money is being "stockpiled" and used to pay fat-cat, overpaid bureaucrats ridiculous salaries and perks, and to purchase things like brand-new
pickup trucks with leather seats and all the extras, for the so-called "rangers" to drive... while you and I purchase cloth seats and sweat the stereo
upgrades on our own vehicles.
You pay for use of all public lands in your ridiculously high taxes every year... (unless you're rich, in which case you pay NO taxes), and the
current disparity between workers' salaries and "executive management" salaries in these agencies is at something OVER 400 %!!! This is a figure
that for previous decades has hovered around 40% or so... a fair divide in compensation for the "ranger on the ground" versus the bureaucratic
paper-pusher in Washington D.C. Now, the paper pusher's take-home is over 400% higher than that working "ranger". Interesting figures, no?
So, know that a fee at Elmer's is NOT going to fix Elmer's... it's going to buy a nice house, stables, helipad, and boat dock on the Potomac for some
overfed, muling bureaucrat who makes his/her living off the sweat equity of the American citizen.
It ain't Rocket Surgery... it ain't Brain Science... it's "Critical Thinking"... the other national deficit.
