Power Kite Forum - Aluminum Kite Buggy Build Gets the Difubulater...

Aluminum Kite Buggy Build Gets the Difubulater...

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SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 03:22 PM

Hey All,

Has anyone come across or heard of any aluminum bugs?

I have some 2" aluminum tube with good bends that I could make a nice stout bug with, without being too light or too heavy. I know weight isn't a factor until you get too light or too heavy. I'd like any info on possible weaknesses and or shortcomings of aluminum.

Thanx, Screwy

strictlycarved - 30-3-2008 at 03:28 PM

what about it.

SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 03:29 PM

Sorry I hit enter to quickly. My bad!!!

strictlycarved - 30-3-2008 at 03:36 PM

aluminum cant handle the vibration due to how ridged it is. thats why most bugs are built of stainless. because steel is flexible and if its stainless it has less chances of rusting out. if you want lite i would go chromoly. i have never built a buggy but i do have experience with race car frames, but i would see what others have to say about it. hope that helps.

WELDNGOD - 30-3-2008 at 04:24 PM

Bam! No worries :smilegrin:

WELDNGOD - 30-3-2008 at 04:26 PM

And soon

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KYTE SLINGER - 30-3-2008 at 04:26 PM

PKD para- storm buggy is built in Alum.

Tang from E-bay {the knock-off king} has chrome plated alum. rockvilles buggys:evil:

USA_Eli_A - 30-3-2008 at 04:57 PM

what's the apex made of.?

SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 06:15 PM

Great guys...

Love the fast responses and great info. I think I might go for it, just for #@%$#!s and giggles. But still be ready to buy a good buggy if one comes across my path for a deal.

Hey strictlycarved, what kinda race car frames did you play with in the past? I used to pit for a Nascar team for the So West Tour and Wild West Shootout, great fun...

And thanx Weldngod you've inspired me to go forward with my build, I'll post a new thread as I get close to starting the project. I'll call it :puzzled: "Aluminum Bug Build Start 2 Finish" :spin:

Kyte Slinger, is that chopper bug (your avatar) for real... that thing is freaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n "BAD A$$" :thumbup:

Thanx again, any more comments greatly appreciated, Screwy

SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by USA_Eli_A
what's the apex made of.?

Apex??? Who me???:puzzled:

KYTE SLINGER - 30-3-2008 at 06:48 PM

Yup! plus the forks has another 44 inch slip joint were I can extend it out but that puts me in the fetal position riding..

blue LED strobe lights that run along the side rails
and red and yellow button strobes I toss in the fake exhaust pipes, phat boy rims w/ smoothies and articulating tandem rear end, old eye lid beach cruiser head light and fake diamond kite tank..... I have a alum. tear drop mirror but I haven't put that on yet so the old round one still on there

I need to drop the foot pegs down 1 inch to ride comfortably

I haven't worked on it in a while but I want to do another paint job on the tank with a fake speedometer and tach. red lined and extend the exhaust out the back and upwards to provide back support/sissy bar with fish tail exhaust tips
and see if chip can tool me out a nice leather seat and saddle bags

hopefully Eli save me some G rims:wink2:

WELDNGOD - 30-3-2008 at 07:46 PM

When working with ally it's "strength by design"I have subjected my buggy to all kinds of abuse, except jumping. No problems so far ,just keep it rinsed off and keep it painted. Oh and very important NO STEEL! do not use steel hardware or parts. It creates a battery, sort of, and destroys the ally. always use stainless steel.

SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 08:08 PM

This rig is "ROCS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-N" I'd love to get a couple of pics in full size to put up on my desk top for a wallpaper... I'll send u a u2u with my email if you'd be willing to share some of these photos with me. They are beautiful shots with the background and clarity is awesome.
I love custom getups like this, I make quite a few custom projects myself. Such a great feeling to accomplish a cool project that no one else has.
Great Job
Screwy

Quote:

Originally posted by KYTE SLINGER
Yup! plus the forks has another 44 inch slip joint were I can extend it out but that puts me in the fetal position riding..

SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 08:16 PM

Great info,
I'll keep that in mind, I might make the forks out of stainless... unsure yet... :thumbup:

Thanx, Screwy

Anyone know where to get seats or how to make'em?:puzzled:

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
When working with ally it's "strength by design"I have subjected my buggy to all kinds of abuse, except jumping. No problems so far ,just keep it rinsed off and keep it painted. Oh and very important NO STEEL! do not use steel hardware or parts. It creates a battery, sort of, and destroys the ally. always use stainless steel. Remember a pound of ally is 2 1/2 times stronger than a pound of steel

strictlycarved - 30-3-2008 at 08:29 PM

i used to do custom baja bugs and trophy trucks. just good old desert racing. just to clear things up i didn't say dont build an aluminum buggy but just that stainless is the way to go. also what welder will you use to build your aluminum frame a tig or a modified mig?

SCREWYFITS - 30-3-2008 at 08:41 PM

Well... I have access to both and I'm aming at the Tig a buddy owns and he's been want'n me to show him how to use it, I have limited experience with Tigs but I always did really well when I did use them.
My dad has a modded Mig but it makes bubble gum welds and doesn't penetrate enough for me. Can't quite figure out the right setup for it, we were using a torch to heat it from behind too :puzzled: we had the right gas also :puzzled: it was a lot thicker aluminum back then so I'm might visit him and take some scraps and try again...

Quote:

Originally posted by strictlycarved
i used to do custom baja bugs and trophy trucks. just good old desert racing. just to clear things up i didn't say dont build an aluminum buggy but just that stainless is the way to go. also what welder will you use to build your aluminum frame a tig or a modified mig?

strictlycarved - 31-3-2008 at 11:15 AM

i would recommend the tig although the migs have gotten better recently.

popeyethewelder - 31-3-2008 at 12:43 PM

Keep us posted with pics as your design moves along....always interesting to see the build

and dont worry, there are plenty of alluminium buggies out there

WELDNGOD - 31-3-2008 at 06:41 PM

Use ac tig with argon gas.or use mig , it doesn't have to be modified . Just positive polarity,helium gas and a miller spoolgun w/ an XMT 350. 26 volts and about a 5 on wire speed . If you use argon it's24 volts and about a6 on wire speed . Or use what ever rig you got. I weld aluminum every day and I'm telling you it has to be clean before you weld it,No oxide showing!

strictlycarved - 31-3-2008 at 07:27 PM

dude that xmt is such a sick welder. ill agree with weldgod cleaning is so vital to the welding processes. and hope your build turns out great. and earlier posted only use stainless hardware raw steel on aluminum is no good. good luck with the build im sure it will turn out great especially with all the experience that seems to be on this forum some of the folks on here really know what their talking about. post pics of the build. soon i should start building mine.

WELDNGOD - 31-3-2008 at 07:39 PM

I AM THE WELDNGOD! MASTER OF ALLOYS EVERYWHERE! U2U IF YOU NEED HELP. ( three ingredients of a welder: Scabs , Duct tape , and leather:smilegrin

) and the Dynasty 700 is king of aluminum!

SCREWYFITS - 1-4-2008 at 12:10 PM

Weldngod,
I wish you lived next door or close by, I'd make a 5gal batch of a good summer brew and smoke some Tri Tip and a few racks of ribs and have a welding party...
I'll be u2u'n ya for info I appreciate the offer!!!
I'll get my buddy's welder info and see if you are familiar with it, I know its a Miller with a Gen on it, its a newer model. Really nice.
To clean alloy use a stainless wire brush... correct? any tricks to share for cleaning. I know cleanliness is a deal breaker for alloy weld'n.
Thanx, Screwy

SCREWYFITS - 1-4-2008 at 12:14 PM

Haaaa,
I just looked up that Dynasty 700 that thing is 12 grand, I bet it makes alloy... Now I really wish you lived next door!!!
Screwy

WELDNGOD - 1-4-2008 at 12:48 PM

I use a Dynasty at work. But the family welding service has 2 Miller Trailblazers and a Big diesel 40 Deluxe ,we got water coolers , hi-freq boxes, plasma cutters.We may get a water-jet cutting table.I will be a buggy part makin freak! You ought to see my grill,made out of 25 inch Dredge Pipe after it is worn too thin1/2".I can cook 8 pork butts easy. It only weighs about 5 or 6 hundred pounds.

SCREWYFITS - 1-4-2008 at 04:15 PM

I like them D-nasty 200's, I'm eyeball'n one of them... sounds like a nice smoker 'id like to see pics of that...
Screwy

strictlycarved - 2-4-2008 at 10:42 AM

the dynasty 200 is so nice. i just sold mine so i could go to school. you will defiantly not regret getting one. but make sure to get the water cooler with it. it sounds stupid now but trust me its way nice to have.

WELDNGOD - 2-4-2008 at 04:44 PM

They are ok, we take 'em on the ships when we have just a little light welding to do.They have a low duty cycle, that means you can't go hard n heavy for long. But for you garage, that would be fine.

SCREWYFITS - 2-4-2008 at 04:46 PM

Good looS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n out... :thumbup:

Yeah... the H2O cooler extends the work time, correct?
Is that considered the duty cycle?
It'll mostly be for hobby use till I get good at these bug's.:singing:
Also like to make small sand rails... :smilegrin:

Quote:

Originally posted by strictlycarved
the dynasty 200 is so nice. i just sold mine so i could go to school. you will defiantly not regret getting one. but make sure to get the water cooler with it. it sounds stupid now but trust me its way nice to have.

WELDNGOD - 2-4-2008 at 04:52 PM

No , the cooler only cools the torch so you don't burn it up. Duty cycle is the percentage of time you can weld in a 10 minute period. A 60% duty cycle means you can weld 6 minutes straight,then the machine needs 4 minutes of down time to cool. 100% means you can weld all day long without stopping and it won't hurt the machine. If it ain't 100% ,I don't need it. I'll burn it up.

WELDNGOD - 2-4-2008 at 05:00 PM

The family welding service Hotworx inc. just bought this for me to power weld with! you can't weld as long as it can run ,on 1 tank of fuel. It can run over 24 hrs. on a tank.

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Scudley - 2-4-2008 at 07:44 PM

What is your aluminum tubing alloy? Pure aluminum is almost never used, and never for structural parts. Most mountain bikes were made from 6000 series with a T6 heat treatment or 7000 series.
Aluminum would be a pretty good material for buggy in terms of corrosion. It forms a protective oxide that prevents further corrosion. As long as that layer is no polished off the aluminum will only corrode very slowly. Contact with iron and steel should isolated to prevent galvanic corrosion.
A problem with aluminum is that is has no fatigue limit. So the frame is is going to fail, possibly with no visible warning signs. How fast it fail will be dependent on how deflection there is in use. I have not done a finite element analysis, but kite buggies may substantially higher loads bikes. I hope your tubing is fairly beefy.
Another problem with most aluminum tube sets is that they are typically large diameter, thin walled tubes. These tubes easily buckle like beer cans.
Heat treating is going to be problematic and possible expensive and most of the aircraft/ bicycle alloys require days at very specific temperatures to harden the alloy its full strength. This must be done after welding.
Making nice aluminum tube welds is an art.

Steel is way cheaper than aluminum. If weight is not a consideration, steel's higher stiffness per unit volume means smaller diameter, thicker walled tubes can be used: you can beat the crap out of it.
Stainless is not really that good around salt water. Around welds the corrosion resistance is much less. Chrome plating is a very bad idea for a buggy. If the chrome is scratched rust at the scratch will perforate the steel in no time.
If you want to chrome plate aluminum, you will have to plate it with something else first.
With steel you do not need fancy welding equipment. You can braze it quite nicely use oxyacetylene set up.
A few thoughts on aluminum buggies from a metallurgist. Good luck with your project.
Scudley

WELDNGOD - 2-4-2008 at 07:52 PM

Hey scudley, Try 2x2x.250 and 1.5x1.5x.125 5086 alum ASTM certified Would that do it? :lol:

I've been ridin my buggy for three years, flipped it , rolled it, cartwheeled it! No worries :smilegrin:

I check it all the time for stress cracks, so far none! Strength by design! :smilegrin:

Scudley - 3-4-2008 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
Hey scudley, Try 2x2x.250 and 1.5x1.5x.125 5086 alum ASTM certified Would that do it? :lol:

I've been ridin my buggy for three years, flipped it , rolled it, cartwheeled it! No worries :smilegrin:

I check it all the time for stress cracks, so far none! Strength by design! :smilegrin:

Excellent choice of alloy for the job. Hard to find out here, most of the stuff at the local metalmart is surplus from the aircraft industry, 6000 7000 series alloys. All your welds with 6000 and 7000 have to have Post Weld Heat Treatment, PWHT or it is like pasta. Using thick walled sections like you did, rather than tubing eliminates the beer can buckling problem. 5086 is excellent in salt water except for SCC.
Withs sections like this your buggy must be as stiff as hell. You must be able to stand in the middle and not see any flex. This is way beefier than mtn bike tubing.
How much was the aluminum? You bought from those guys in Norfolk, 24 ft sections.
If you bent this stuff for your frame, what the hell did you use to bend those sections?
It sounds like you did your planning rather than lucking out and getting by chance one of the few al alloys that keeps its strength after welding. It was not just some tubing laying around.
Are there some detail pictures of your buggy about?
Thanks for reminding us all that we should all regularly check our buggy's welds for cracks, home built or store bought. A friend found the cracks in welds of his front forks. This was on a fairly new name brand buggy. Nasty to drop your front wheel in a race.

S

p.s. 5086 is excellent for anodizing. Have you thought about colour?

WELDNGOD - 3-4-2008 at 06:06 PM

I'm a navy contractor,so I got connects.Everything meets or exceeds Mil- spec. Have access to lots of drops from the saw;-).I did not bend anything ,it is all open root mitre joints. All two bead welds, no "rooticaps".We make shipboard exterior handrail out of the stuff.Stout material it is,but you gotta design it right too.

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WELDNGOD - 3-4-2008 at 06:15 PM

green machine

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Scudley - 3-4-2008 at 06:22 PM

Do you find you get galvanic corrosion at the bearings and bolts, let me guess some voodoo navy grease to prevent it.
I figured miter joints would be the way to go or some big mother hydraulic press.
Do you weld for living?
S

Scudley - 3-4-2008 at 06:24 PM

I do not think you can anodize green.
With those tube sections, its fatigue life is going to be longer yours.
S

WELDNGOD - 3-4-2008 at 06:33 PM

All 316 stainless axles and hardware, powdercoat rocks! :smilegrin:

I rinse it with fresh water when I get home. So far no corrosion to speak of. And when I was 18, I was building nuclear subs at newport news shipbuilding. I have been a shipyard and marine repair welder for 27 years.

WELDNGOD - 3-4-2008 at 06:35 PM

Oh, yeah and I got some mojo grease called SUPERLUBE. It's great in bearings

Scudley - 3-4-2008 at 06:48 PM

Your product shows great craftsmanship. Your choice of materials superb. I think you have to agree that for the average schmuck, steel is probably an easier material to work with. Would you build a build a buggy out of 6xxx or 7xxx series tubing? I think it is too much trouble.
What does your buggy weigh in at?
I will take mine anodized amethyst.
Clearly you are a welding god.

S
I hope you have been really careful at work in those 27 years. That is a long time breathing fume and watching flash.

WELDNGOD - 3-4-2008 at 06:56 PM

Thanks, I wouldn't use6000 or 7000 due to heat treat.5000 series is fine for this application. It ( the green one)weighs 65 lbs. Plenty of scrap and drop.Not for average joe build,and no unfortunately I have breathed aton of stainless smoke,7018,copper -nickle,aluminum,galvanized,oils,paint, and any thing else that will burn:flaming:

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strictlycarved - 3-4-2008 at 09:06 PM

sick welder man what kind of welding do you do for a living. it sounds like ships or oil rig.

strictlycarved - 3-4-2008 at 09:07 PM

never mind weldgod i just read the rest of the post.

SCREWYFITS - 4-4-2008 at 11:23 PM

I don't know what series aluminum I have but its 2" round and probably .250" and its used for hand railing by the government in the water industry, you all think that should be sufficient? Its all pre-bent so I'll cut and weld to get the shape, I'll post pics of the alloy soon.
Thanx...

WELDNGOD - 6-4-2008 at 07:40 AM

are there any numbers on it? i.e. 4043 , 5086 , 5056, 5356, 6061?

SCREWYFITS - 6-4-2008 at 02:21 PM

no!

SCREWYFITS - 6-4-2008 at 02:25 PM

My guess is... it's got to be strong enough, the #@%$#! is big and thick. I'm just in question of the abuse a buggy takes. I believe the weakest point is gonna be the welds, just because I'm not weldngod... I should get the welds good enough. Hopefully full penetration.

WELDNGOD - 6-4-2008 at 03:26 PM

if its thick (3/16 "+) it will do. when you make up your weld joints ,clean them with flap wheel,and bevel pipe 22 degrees. Don't feather edge bevel, leave a little land. No more than 3/32" gap! put root pass then cover pass. It's stronger than you think,you need to make it strong by design. There are ways to reinforce high stress areas i.e.chocks, gussets,doublers,support brackets etc. things that need to flex can be built with natural arc to it . Ever notice tractor trailers that have aluminum chassis trailer, they have arch to them so when heavy load is put on it ,it will flatten out.Instead of buckling!If you use the right filler wire ,your welds will be stronger than the parent metal.

SCREWYFITS - 7-4-2008 at 12:51 AM

Weldngod... You are a "Weldn God"...:wow: Thanx Much!! :thumbup:

You are an encyclopedia of weldn information!! :cool:

WELDNGOD - 7-4-2008 at 02:59 PM

That's why they love my a$$, and put up with"wind's blowin today boss, later".;-)

SCREWYFITS - 13-4-2008 at 11:22 PM

Just Bought a PL folding from buggymangp and I should have it on 4-17-08 or hopefully b4, This will give me a good idea what is involved in a buggy and what design needs there are.

WELDNGOD - 14-4-2008 at 11:36 AM

njoy, be safe(at least as safe as you can on a wheeled vehicle with no brakes,powered by an unpredictable force of nature that mankind has zero control over):frog: Be sure to post about your maiden voyage!

torisspacedog - 18-4-2008 at 04:02 AM

Take a chunk of your tubing to a local scrapyard and have them zap it with their gun . They will be able to tell you the exact alloy so you then know if it will suit your project and what filler alloy to purchase. Good luck and keep us informed.

SCREWYFITS - 18-4-2008 at 10:51 PM

Nice thinking...
Thanx, great tip!
Screwy

Quote:

Originally posted by torisspacedog
Take a chunk of your tubing to a local scrapyard and have them zap it with their gun . They will be able to tell you the exact alloy so you then know if it will suit your project and what filler alloy to purchase. Good luck and keep us informed.

WELDNGOD - 19-4-2008 at 05:56 AM

It does not matter,for a structural app. you would want to use 5000 series filler wire.You always use stronger filler than parent metal.If it was bought for hand rail it is structural grade. you wouldn't use the cheap stuff, due to liability issues. design it good,make your cuts accurate(no gaps),bevel, then weld it the best you can. I would tack it up real good 4 tacks per joint,then weld it.jump around alot so you don't pull somethin. Don't worry I'll be here to talk you through it!

SCREWYFITS - 19-4-2008 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
It does not matter,for a structural app. you would want to use 5000 series filler wire.You always use stronger filler than parent metal.If it was bought for hand rail it is structural grade. you wouldn't use the cheap stuff, due to liability issues. design it good,make your cuts accurate(no gaps),bevel, then weld it the best you can. I would tack it up real good 4 tacks per joint,then weld it.jump around alot so you don't pull somethin. Don't worry I'll be here to talk you through it!

Thanx
You da man!!!

flexiblade - 30-4-2008 at 11:57 PM

Going back to you question about seats - I've found that seatbelt straps looped over the frame and then epoxied with staples holding it together works great - I had a seat that lasted me for 10 months before I redesigned the seat and replaced the old one.

I also added a lawnmower seat that's made out of foam latex with a fake leather coating - the ultimate in plush rides - almost too comfy.

SCREWYFITS - 3-5-2008 at 01:45 AM

I'd like to see pics of that lay-z-boy bug your claiming...

Defibulated project... IT'S ALIVE!!!

SCREWYFITS - 28-2-2009 at 11:02 AM

Recently this project got a "NABX" defibrillator jolt... and the heart is pumping...

I'll kinda get you up to speed...

1st I started looking for a GTAW "Tig" welder to weld aluminum and at one point was ready to buy, then started having the whole "am I getting the real deal" 2nd thoughts and then decided to go to collage to take some welding classes... "NOW" I know what welder I want and feel a lot better about my decision (by the way its a Miller Dynasty 200DX)... and I feel I'm excelling at an extraordinary rate in my welding skills, YAAAY!!!

Now to the meat... I've got virtually all my materials and a lot of the parts are cut and drilled and close to welding still got some bending to do (basically the side rails and top fork plate), need to mock up the goose neck then cut and weld it... but all-n-all it seems to be on schedule for NABX...

The bug that I'm designing is inspired by Popeyethewelder's array of fantastic designs (Thanx Popeye)... I'd also like to give credit to weldngod for all the inspiration to attempt the aluminum buggy, to be a good welder and learn the correct way to weld...

Here is the mock up of the front forks (the top plate will have the sides bent down similar to PTW's new style forks), note the fork legs are not cut yet and will be cut when the majority of the main bug is mocked up so I can get a better idea of the length (hopefully this next week)...
Fork mock up...

This is a side view of what the fork leg should mock up like, there is a planed steep angle to be cut at the bottom of the leg to give it some style, also a slight angle at the top to accommodate the top fork plate that will be bent slightly down...
Side view of fork leg mock up...

These are the side rail to rear axle attachment brackets...
Rear side rail connection brackets...

This is a SCREWY spindle... I'm not going with the standard 20mm bolt axle... But instead I'm going with a beefy 3/4" chromeoly tube axle that will suspend in a 1 7/8" aluminum housing for strength... I also believe I should get smoother bearing rotation being a lil larger and plus hoping for a lil longer life and a higher load capacity...
SCREWY Spindles...
Second View SCREWY Spindles

I'm posting links to the photos as it helps the thread to open faster...
So excited!!!:wee:

Stayed tuned the next 4 weeks, should be exciting with as many update's as I possibly can...
Please give any comments, they are greatly appreciated and help in my progress... :thumbup:

I know this is stupid but this is my 420 post... :rolleyes:

WELDNGOD - 28-2-2009 at 02:32 PM

screwy my brother, good luck w/ your welding. Take your time, and don't overheat it. What kind of tig torch are you gonna get? I highly recomend the Weldcraft WP-20 water cooled. I run it regularly , at well over 200 amps for hours at a time. Only cost about 125 bucks. The remote is what will kill ya', they are like 180 bucks. good job takin welding classes, hope they were worthwhile. If you build a sweet a$$ bug , then it will be worth it. let me know if ya got any questions , and I wanna see a set of cans. It's all about heat input and the control of it.

SCREWYFITS - 28-2-2009 at 03:28 PM

Hey WG
I was looS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n at the WP-17/18 but a I'm a ways off from the welder and I'm mostly going to weld my project at the school, they have the Dynasty 350 and 700's amongst others but the Dynastys are sooo sick I think the 350s have the WG-18 and the 700s have the WG-20's and I'm gonna start playing on the D 700's from now on... I bought all kinds of collets, collet bodies and ceramic nozzles and a good array of tungsten in several sizes also... I think the collet, bodies and nozzles are larger on that WP-20 though...
Whats the trick to the aluminum cans, I know they are welding bottom to bottom or something like that... that is just sick...
I'll get you some photos of my welding aluminum, I think I might make you proud for the amount of time I've been doing this... the teachers think I've been welding for years, HE HE... I'm just picS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n it up quick...
Whats that mirror welds you mentioned... is that when you make a pass and the dimes look shinny like a mirror?

WELDNGOD - 28-2-2009 at 03:46 PM

no, that is when you cannot get your head anywhere that you can see all the way around (say a pipe in a corner). You use a mirror to see the back side while you weld it.

SCREWYFITS - 28-2-2009 at 03:56 PM

aaahh!!!
That's crazy hard I bet... I have a hell of a time shaving in the mirror let alone welding...
But that's why they call you ... well it doesn't need to be said... does it? O.K. "WELDNGOD"..:frog:

WELDNGOD - 28-2-2009 at 04:21 PM

ya gotta think through your hand not your eyes.

WELDNGOD - 28-2-2009 at 04:23 PM

my pc is down. I gotta build a new one.so if ya don't hear from me right away, give me time. I have to borrow the missus' to surf for now.

flexiblade - 28-2-2009 at 05:02 PM

Very nice work on the rim adapters - I have had the hardest time trying to find something like that - building it is beyond the equipment I have available to me. I may be rebuilding my back axle due to some bending issues - I will probably go with a single piece of tubing cut in half with a inner sleeving tube that will be bolted in place (to keep make the axle 2 pieces in order to fit into my Honda). Popeye's mentioned problems in welding axles - they have a tendency to bend (banana) - and then they need to be re-bent to get back to true. I'll try avoiding this by using a clamping system rather than welding. Just a backup idea for you - by the look of it the schools got lots of good equipment - most likely a good pipe bender - so welding your axle should not be a problem. Good luck man - so far you got it coming together really well.

SCREWYFITS - 28-2-2009 at 05:27 PM

The Bug is going to have Bigfoot's (Nanking N800's) most of the time, and I'm thinking these tires for NABX, cuz they are 4 ply, 18"x9,5"x8", $26.37 lil bucks, 9.5" wide instead of 11", 10 lbs to help hold my aluminum bug down and cool tread to stick to the playa...
Duro DI5009's

Thanx Flexi,

Everything is being done at home except the welding, I have the pipe bender (similar to the one you see on PTW's site), a lathe, a mill, a tube notcher and other stuff, minus the welder which I hope to have in the next 4-5 months, also looS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n to upgrade to a tubing bender... so if you want to fab up some of the impossible come on over... :spin:

I wouldn't mind building custom bugs down the road, similar to what Popeye does, big shoes to fill, but I don't have to be that bad a$$...:shocked2:

I doubt that I'll change up to "SCREWYTHEWELDER" or "SCREWYGOD" or anything like that...:ticking
I am becoming very fond of welding though, and look forward to doing custom fab stuff more than anything, Sandrails would be sick fun to fab up!!! also, like custom hotrod stuff, Quad/ATV/UTV suspension, the list goes on... I like to get into everything, it's the 2 year old in me!!!:saint: 39 going 2...

Thanx Weldngod, I most likely will take you up on your offer to pick your brain on welding... and broke PC, I'll hurry up and wait...:roll::puzzled: :spin:

Also, I'm making a bright orange seat, so I can be as SCREWY as I wanna be!!! and be seen from space...:singing:

SCREWYFITS - 28-2-2009 at 10:44 PM

O.K. got a lil further tonight, here are photos of the spindles on the axle and the axle mock up...
Spindle on the axle with axle clamp
Spindle on axle
Axle mock up
now its ready for some welding...:singing:

flexiblade - 28-2-2009 at 11:58 PM

That is very pretty - nothing like building your own. It's a rush when your mind starts throwing things together in different configurations and you can then start problem solving through each scenario. Makes you want to run out to the shop and get to work.

WELDNGOD - 1-3-2009 at 05:51 AM

FB, the way to weld axles without bending them is to give it negative camber before welding.
Basically pre-bend it the opposite direction that the weld is going to pull. You can try clamping it to something straight, but it will not eliminate the locked in stress from welding. It will still banana ,just not as much. The hard part is knowing how far to pre bend the part, you don't want to go too far. but ya don't want to not go far enough.

I made modular axles for mine , so I did not encounter that problem. And Screwy ,my not so young apprentice,good luck w/ your bug. And remember the only stupid question is the one ya didn't ask. peace WG

SCREWYFITS - 1-3-2009 at 08:01 AM

In class, I have not noticed/experienced aluminum bending or warping after the welding is done... Is this still an issue with aluminum or are carbon/stainless steels the one with this problem or all metals? and/or is it just less of a problem with aluminum...
Thanx for the props guys...
I'm aiming to have the side rails bent up and goose neck mocked up for welding Monday night and Tuesday night start some welding on the forks and goose neck... I'll post photos...:singing:

WELDNGOD - 1-3-2009 at 08:49 AM

quite the opposite , aluminum distorts like crazy if you don't Control weld it. All metals do it . Metal expands when it melts and shrinks when it cools. It always shrinks more than it expands and creates the pull that warps. Aluminum is even worse because it gets soft when really hot , so soft that it cannot resist the pull of the shrinkage.

SCREWYFITS - 1-3-2009 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
so soft that it cannot resist the pull of the shrinkage

HEY!!! this is a family show!!! :lol:

Thanx, that's valued information... So, I should expect my aluminum axle to warp when I weld the side rail tabs to it? if so, I can bend it back but I kinda wanna know what to expect...

The "weld toward your 1st short weld trick", will this help... and it goes like, weld an inch from the end to the end then a inch from the start of the 1st weld toward the 1st weld, and so on?
Would welding a lil bit let it cool and come back and weld more till you complete the section, help in any way?:puzzled: I've seen them do this in like a spot weld technique for sheet metal on bodywork...

WELDNGOD - 1-3-2009 at 03:36 PM

that would be a kind of control welding. But no matter what you do it will warp slightly. I suggest that you clamp a long piece of angle (steel) to it and try not to over heat it. Don't try to weld it all in 5 minutes.
Yeah, let it cool after an inch or so then take a break and come back to it. Then let it cool slowly on its own before takin the angle off. I still think putting negative camber on it is the best way,but I'm not sure of the amount, maybe .125" to .25" . I made my axle sections a 3 dimensional structure w/ gussets and backup chocks as to minimize bending under load. If you have a problem w/ deflection when you sit in it or over time and loading. You can get another pipe and make a double tube axle over/under style ,I have 2 buggies like that now. One round pipe, and one square tube. They are super strong.

SCREWYFITS - 1-3-2009 at 04:07 PM

Thanx for the advice, I might try and add a .125" sprung neg bow in it preweld, it couldn't hurt much the axle is actualy the 3/4" chromoly and will get no welds to bend...
I know in my photos you cannot see it but the 3/4" chromoly tube goes through the center of the aluminum pipe, and I was designing it that way for added strength...

WELDNGOD - 1-3-2009 at 04:47 PM

screwy, I hate to tell you this. But "chromemoly" is steel.You should never put any steel in contact w/ aluminum (GALVANIC CORROSION AHEAD). It is only steel w/ chromium and molybdenum added to it in small percentages.But it is still just a specialized steel. But not even close to stainless steel ,which is nickle/chromium mostly.

SCREWYFITS - 1-3-2009 at 06:27 PM

your advice has been taken master... I have designed the end plugs of the aluminum tube out of plastic to insulate the two metals and then the bearings are stainless... I never 2nd guess the GOD...:bigok:

WELDNGOD - 1-3-2009 at 08:14 PM

I have taught you well. :thumbup:

SCREWYFITS - 3-3-2009 at 09:43 AM

Yes WG, you have...
I read and data input everything into a lil space far away in the brain...
Here is a lil lesson Popeye has learned me from his site (thanx PTW)...
The mock up of the goose neck and forks on wood...
:singing:
You guys have a huge impact on my inspiration and thanx again...

SCREWYFITS - 3-3-2009 at 11:48 PM

Welded up the goose neck tonight in welding class, here are some photos...
Aluminum Goose Neck pic #1
Goose Neck pic #2
Goose Neck Pic #3

Bucky - 4-3-2009 at 03:41 PM

Don't forget to post some pics when its done. I've always there weren't more alum. buggies out there. One with "ovalized" tubes similar to what's on higher end mountainbikes would be cool as hell, not to mention more comfortable.

I had always assumed that people didn't aluminum because:

a: It much more of a pain in the a$$ to weld.
b: Its far more rigid than steel.
c: Its very hard to bend aluminum without weakening it significantly. (I noticed WELDNGOD's siderails are all formed with welded straight pieces rather than bent tubing)

That being said, I'm not a welder. Folks like POPEYETHEWELDER"and WELDNGOD on the other hand, actually know there #@%$#!. If they say it can be done, then dammit it CAN!

WELDNGOD - 4-3-2009 at 05:57 PM

good job bro'

How thick is the wall on that tubing? Not bad for a "greenhorn", you are on your way to "puddlepusher" and if you keep on going one day you might be a "MASTER MANIPULATOR OF MOLTEN METAL" or "4M". Then you can get that on your hard hat. and everyone will know you are a weldin mofo.

I'm so good , I got a "4Q" on my hard hat. that stands for..... well just say it 3 times fast. I weld good enough , I don't have to take no crap. Or I will pack up my stuff and have another job before I start my truck to leave.

peace WG

SCREWYFITS - 4-3-2009 at 09:34 PM

Thanx WELDNGOD,

.125 wall... Thanx for the props, puddlepushen is tougher for me in the corners, also I literally only got like 3 foot of welds on aluminum to date... I'm proud of them though...

Anyhow... Here are some photos of the forks mocked up ready for some weld'n...
The pics are all the same mock up just at different angles...

Forks Pic #1
Forks Pic #2
Forks Pic #3
Forks Pic #4
Forks Pic #5

This Thurs night I get three hrs of welding to get as far as I can on them...:singing: I'm having so much fun with this project and the whole welding process...

WELDNGOD, you are defiantly blessed with a valuable talent... :thumbup:

"ovalized" tubes, great idea...

SCREWYFITS - 5-3-2009 at 01:55 PM

Ready for welding, all jigged up!!!
Couple hours to go before school, you can bet I'll be there early... :smilegrin:

:ticking:
Here are the jigged up photo links...
All Jigged Up #1
All Jigged Up #2
All Jigged Up #3
All Jigged Up #4
All Jigged Up #5
All Jigged Up #6
I'll get you Photos tonight after class, unless I bomb...:puzzled:

WELDNGOD - 5-3-2009 at 04:57 PM

Dude!, I'm makin some new forks right now that are very similar to what you are . That is crazy, no that's screwy! WTF over!..... I'll have to get some pics for ya.

SCREWYFITS - 5-3-2009 at 05:46 PM

Great minds think alike...
Just got through bending the left side rail... now the hard part... bending the right to mirror exactly to the left... I got a digital angle finder to help, hope that works out to be precise...
Look forward to your pics...

MG-kites - 6-3-2009 at 02:35 AM

Quote:

All Jigged Up #1
All Jigged Up #2
All Jigged Up #3
All Jigged Up #4
All Jigged Up #5
All Jigged Up #6
I'll get you Photos tonight after class, unless I bomb...:puzzled:

Looks nice,
I also finished my aluminium buggy, first testride was good.
This weekend i'm gonna test it with the races in Holland.
Al my plates are 8 mm, yours looks a bit thin....?

SCREWYFITS - 6-3-2009 at 07:14 AM

Yeah, I guess it is thin compared to 8mm, it's 1/4" or 6.35mm... and I thought I was over kill... did you ever get a complete photo up with the tires? that is a nice bug...

Here are some pics of the Forks partially welded, I got about 95" of welds on it last night and still have another 15" or so to go...

Forks #1
Forks #2

The welds are a lil rough, I was in a lil bit of a rush and I regret it now because I still have to take it back anyways... I might grind them down and re weld them for a nice ribbed bead... they got plenty of penetration though...:roll:

WELDNGOD - 6-3-2009 at 04:59 PM

Screwy ,do you know how to "walk the cup"?
I'll try to explain it, but you might wanna ask your instructor to show you. It is when you put your gas cup on the metal and roll your wrist to make the cup zig zag up the weld . the trick is too not use to much heat or the metal will not be solid when you r cup gets to it, then you will be "dragging your d%ck" and that messes up the appearance of the finished weld. walk the cup when you want it to look like a machine did it,it will look like a roll of dimes layed out. pretty work for a newbie

PS you could just reflow those welds. and walk the cup when you do, just add a tiny bit of filler every time you see a low spot so it comes out even. Aluminum is one of the few metals you can reflow acouple times if you mess up. JUST DO NOT USE TOO MUCH HEAT! You gotta find that fine line where your puddle is just right and not getting ANY bigger. If your puddle is getting bigger turn down the amps till you find that spot where you can roll w/it. Peace WG :ninja:

my new forks , not even close to being finished.

0306091110.jpg - 155kB

SCREWYFITS - 6-3-2009 at 08:08 PM

Sick, I like the way you have your bends, kinda sweeping back... dig the lower plate being bent also... how do you make your bends, a hydraulic break or press?
Man!!! I sure could use 1 on 1 lessons, I learn so much more watching someone else weld then try myself, thanx for the tips, I understand and will give her a go... I definitely tried to do too much in too lil time last night, I was supposed to have 3 hrs to weld then the teacher had a hour demonstration on a basic bead on aluminum, which didn't help me much, just a lil reassurance... I'll take them back in and take my time and see if I can't make you proud :ticking:...
Here are a few photos of the forks mounted up on the goose neck, they fit perfect to boot...
Forks and Goose Neck #1
Forks and Goose Neck #2
Forks and Goose Neck #3

WELDNGOD - 7-3-2009 at 04:23 PM

Take your time, and put it in there 1 drop at a time. It's all in the wrist and keep your elbow up!

IT'S TAKING SHAPE!!!

SCREWYFITS - 8-3-2009 at 08:48 AM

Thanx again WG for all the advise, it truly helps...
Here is a photo of the whole bug mocked less the wheels and tires... It's taking shape...
Bug mocked up...
It's starting to get real exciting... :singing:
I'd like to throw out another thanx to PTW & WG for the inspiration...:roll:

DAKITEZ - 8-3-2009 at 10:26 AM

hey thats starting to look like a buggy. :wee:

you know I'm going to want to try it :smilegrin:

I could do the weight test for you :lol:

If it will hold my fat butt you have no issues :thumbup:

WELDNGOD - 12-3-2009 at 02:25 PM

new pic of new forks,still gotta make footpegs and axle.

0312091705.jpg - 238kB

flexiblade - 12-3-2009 at 05:50 PM

Getting closer - can't wait to see it out on the playa.

SCREWYFITS - 13-3-2009 at 07:15 AM

Damn, WG... SHHAAAZAAM!!!! Them are "SICK DADDY BEEF"!!!

I'll have photos up later tonight, I added apx 120" of welds last night in class (I think you'll be proud WG) and now the bug is 90% complete... Just have to weld up some foot pegs w/ heel hangers and 4 tabs for my secret addition...
I'll probably reveal the secret on Tue night after the bug is done, yes, you heard right, I'm expecting the buggy to be done on Tue night if all goes well... :singing:
This will give me a week & a half to shake it down... :wee:

See you tonight...

DAKITEZ - 13-3-2009 at 07:19 AM

wait on the surprise for nabx ;-)

SCREWYFITS - 13-3-2009 at 07:22 AM

DOOOOH!!!
For real?
Your brutal...
You gonna help me shake her down?
What you doing up this early? I know you aren't worS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n...:dunno:
Hey how do you get one of them US#'s?

WELDNGOD - 13-3-2009 at 01:58 PM

Just join the NAPKRA, and pick a # I couldn't get a good 2 digit # ,so I went w/#100

SCREWYFITS - 14-3-2009 at 08:45 AM

Thanx WG,
I'm now officially US357

Sorry everyone, I was too busy last night to get photos, I can say that it is mostly assembled minus the front rim-n-tire (bastards didn't get all 3 tires to me) the seat is not in it either, the foot pegs need to be fabed and the "SECRET" is not installed... as soon as I can I'll get photos of it, I'll have links up for everyone to gawk at...

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