Power Kite Forum

1 Flysurfer vs. 2 Inflato's

Kiteboarder2B - 23-4-2008 at 09:26 PM

Ok, I know you Flysurfer guys are probably tired of talking about these, but I figured this to be the best place to ask and get a non-biased opinion. First a little backround.

I live in Las Vegas and plan on hitting the water at Lake Mojave, a pretty well-known place in the west for kitesurfing. I've been powerkiting for 4 years and powerkiting with my Dirtsurfer for a little over a year, mostly with foils. So I have kite and board experience of sorts. The winds generally run 10-20 with gusts to 30, somedays and wind directions are better than others for smooth wind. I weigh 160 pounds.

I've done A LOT of reading up on depowerable kites and kitesurfing over the last 4 years. I 've always been intimidated by depowerables but finally watching the surfers put it all in perspective: I have to do it.

I hear nothing but positive vibes about Flysurfer, but no one here really flys them. My buddy who just started kitesurfing mostly rides a Best Waroo 9m with our conditions here and I can get one for $500, and a 16 Octane something-or-other for about $600. I am told this will cover a good windrange, but I just can't get my mind off Flysurfer's and the notion of being able to self launch.

So here's the question I pose to you Flysurfer gurus. Would you advise buying a used 10m-or-so and eventually getting a larger kite down the road (could be next summer, could be next week, I work on call) to round out the quiver? Or would you advise just getting 2 inflatos for the price of 1 used Flysurfer and being rounded out from the get go?

Joe

domdino - 23-4-2008 at 09:38 PM

Will give you a proper reply in the morning, but whats wrong with using your 15m phantom? That's a great kite you know :)

Kiteboarder2B - 23-4-2008 at 09:47 PM

I've tried editing my sig many times but it always goes back to that. I no longer own the Phantom, wishing I did now :-( Just foils and Kitewings in my quiver these days


*Edit* I figured out the problem and now I've updated my sig

bigkahuna - 24-4-2008 at 03:42 AM

The best answer would be to try them both first before you buy them, but if you can't do that here's my 2 cents:

Regarding the Flysurfer, which model? Older model FS had real crappy range, stability and gust handling IMHO. Later model FS were better in this regard but not nearly as good as a modern bow / SLE. There will be those here who disagree with me on this, but I owned a FS Titan 15.5 and a FS Speed 2-19 and they flew like crap in the gusty/shifty winds I was in (Hawaii and then Lake Erie, Ohio). The plus side for buying a FS is that they are usually much more durable than LEI's and hold their resale value so if you don't like it you can probably sell it for what you paid for it.

Regarding the Octane, that's old generation technology. Hard/impossible to relaunch, poor depower, poor range, and next to no resale value at all. I bought a new 20 meter complete last year for $600 and was lucky to get $200 for it 6 months later (only flown 3x). I say steer clear of the Octanes unless they're giving them a way.

Instead of 2 old C kites, how about 1 new Bow / SLE? I personally like the Best Bularoos and you can still get new 07 models for about half the price of an 08. One Bularoo can easily replace the wind range of 2 C kites (I have flown my Bularoo 16 in everything from 12 mph to 30+) and I paid $500 for it a couple weeks ago. There are other good Bow/SLE's out there, I just think the Bularoo is probably one of the best bang for the buck deals out there.

powerzone - 24-4-2008 at 07:33 AM

it is un-reallistic to expect any 1 kite to cover 10-30knots.... the only way to get close is with 2 boards.

action jackson - 24-4-2008 at 08:04 AM

it is un-reallistic to expect any 1 kite to cover 10-30knots.... the only way to get close is with 2 boards.

You are wrong! My 12m phantom covers this range plus up to about 40. I use extentions on it till it 25+ then i just use standard 27m lines. I use a crazy-fly 145x49 board. I have used this board in winds from 8-45mph!Mojave is a great place but thorns scare me when you talk leis. I had 3 great days at mojave this yr. I would really look at the twin skins! I had alot of the locals impressed with it at mojave this yr..........aj

ps i weight 195 lbs!

DenisLaMenace - 24-4-2008 at 08:16 AM

Action

this is hard to beleive
i'm sure everyone would like to see some videos of you kiting in 10knots with a 12m phantom, and then same kite, same board in above 30 knots.

so why then in your quiver, do you have a 6,9,12,15,18 ?

domdino - 24-4-2008 at 08:30 AM

My girlfriend has a 12m phantom... if you're riding that thing in 40knots then you are a miracle worker... i've ridden hers in upto 28mph at which point i was doing 30foot jumps and absolutely scaring the crap out of myself!! They have decent depower, but definitely definitely not 40knots worth!!

Think there's a little exaggeration there perhaps ;)

domdino - 24-4-2008 at 08:33 AM

This was only 16 knots a year or so ago... this kite is one of the more extreme peter lynns in my opinion..... i cannot buy 40knots :singing:

DSC_0303.jpg - 27kB

bigkahuna - 24-4-2008 at 08:40 AM

Quote:
it is un-reallistic to expect any 1 kite to cover 10-30knots.... the only way to get close is with 2 boards.

First, I didn't say 10-30 knots, I said 12-30 mph. I won't explain the difference between a statute mile per hour and a knot, I'll just assume we all know this already. You can believe what you like, but I don't make wild claims without prior first hand experience.

A week and a half ago, I had one session in the sound where the winds built from the low 20's to the mid 40's mph before I left. By the time the wind was around the 30's it started to get a bit too exciting for me so I came in. At no time did I feel unsafe, I just don't enjoy it when I have to constantly depower the kite and keep it nearly at the zenith. I was flying my 07 Bularoo 16m on stock lines with my 07 CrazyFly AllAround 145x49. I weigh roughly 245-250 and was wearing a 3/2 wetsuit. Air temps were in the 70's.

Last Sunday I did a brief (3 mile) ocean downwinder. Before starting I measured the wind at 18 mph with lulls to 12 mph. While out the wind gradually dropped to just over 10 mph as I reached the beach and then about a half hour later to 5 mph. At 18 mph was I barely powered enough without sining the kite, and at 12 mph I had to constantly sine the kite to keep going. I was riding my 07 Bularoo 16, stock lines and a new Ocean Rodeo Mako Freeride Wide 150x40.

I'd say that with the Bularoo 16 I get all the mid and top end that I used to get with my Venom 19 (which I often rode in the high 20's gusting to 30 mph) plus a lot more bottom end than the V19 (I never was able to ride the V19 in anything less than a solid 15 mph).

I can't speak for Action, but the reason I have such a large quiver is three fold:

1. My wife let me do it (Yipeee!)
2. My wife shares the smaller kites with me
3. Every kite has its "sweet spot". Even though I am able to fly the Bularoo 16 in 12 to 30 mph, when the wind is under 18 mph or over 25 mph other kites are more "fun" to fly (especially in waves).

SecondWind - 24-4-2008 at 08:40 AM

Is that you up in the air Dom? :o

Bladerunner - 24-4-2008 at 08:41 AM

Flysurfer suggests 5-44kts for the 8m P3 but that is a bit wide IMHO

domdino - 24-4-2008 at 08:49 AM

Tis my friend Dan :)
I've ridden the bullaroo and the waroo and the nemesis HP now and i like them all for sure, they are great kites for the money. I also agree that older flysurfers were definitely not the most stable things (especially that blasted psycho1 that thing was a nightmare!) the speed2 however was extremely stable so i don't know if i agree with you there, and they're new kites psychoIII and pulse 2 are way more stable than any of Best's kites... from my experience of flying in nasty gusty winter easterlies here in new york... not to say one is better than the other, it's all personal preference...

I love small kites myself, i flew a 9m waroo for a while from 18-30ish knots was great, i take it your quite heavy if you're riding a 16 in 30mph? I'm a little fella so i don't need much kite to get up :)

Anyway, this is getting rather flamish and unuseful people just saying how much they like what they ride, which is fair enough but not massively balanced....

If you can, try all these kites and make a decision for yourself...

PS. the Pulse2 flies very much like a bularoo only more stable - i flew them side by side two weeks ago :) and was switching out between the pulse, bularoo, nemesishp, helix and ocean rodeo rise :thumbup:

BeamerBob - 24-4-2008 at 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by action jackson
it is un-reallistic to expect any 1 kite to cover 10-30knots.... the only way to get close is with 2 boards.

You are wrong! My 12m phantom covers this range plus up to about 40. I use extentions on it till it 25+ then i just use standard 27m lines. I use a crazy-fly 145x49 board. I have used this board in winds from 8-45mph!Mojave is a great place but thorns scare me when you talk leis. I had 3 great days at mojave this yr. I would really look at the twin skins! I had alot of the locals impressed with it at mojave this yr..........aj

ps i weight 195 lbs!


Big Kahuna, this is the quote that stirred the controversy. I didn't gather that anyone disputed what you said.

bigkahuna - 24-4-2008 at 08:55 AM

Oops, sorry...

tridude - 24-4-2008 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Flysurfer suggests 5-44kts for the 8m P3 but that is a bit wide IMHO


Ken,

The published, usable wind range for the 8m P3 is 11 to 34. The 5 represents getting it airborn........................ I flew your P3 at the beach in 7. I guess this would be a bad time to bring up the useable wind range on my Profoil 3.5m using our Sutz 10' longboard? Come on guys lighten up, we are all in this together!:smilegrin::thumbup:

DenisLaMenace - 24-4-2008 at 10:34 AM

My Ozone IMP 1m (2 line) has a wind range of 5mph to 70mph

At 5mph, on rollerblade in Walmart parking going downwind

:frog::frog::frog:

yes wind ranges are hugh, but I like the term used by bigkahuna: sweetspot which range is probably max 10mph to have fun in a secure way

bigkahuna - 24-4-2008 at 11:03 AM

I agree, kite wind ranges depend on so many variables (air temp / density, size of board, rider weight, rider skill, rough/flat water, etc. etc.) so as to make them almost worthless except to compare different sizes of the same model kite.

Getting back to Kitewheelboarder's original question I think the general consensus is that the better kite to shop for would be a recent model Flysurfer or Bow/SLE (or even Peter Lynn). Older model FS's and C - kites might have been good in their day, but the recent advances make up for what small amount more you may pay to get a newer generation kite. Additionally, if for some reason you're not happy with the kite you've bought, foils tend to be easier to sell and have a higher resale value. Although I didn't like either of the FS's I owned, I had no problem at all finding them new owners and selling them for nearly what I paid for them. Can't say the same for C-kites. Bow/SLE's depreciate more than foils, in my experience, but nothing like a C-kite.

One last bit I'll throw into the fire: Since you had a Phantom I'll just add that I found the Bularoo's to have a lot of the same flying characteristics as my PL's and I had no problem adapting to them. Imagine a Phantom that is 3x faster turning, 2x the depower and easy as heck to relaunch, and that's pretty much my experience with the Bularoos.

OK, I'm done... ;)

action jackson - 24-4-2008 at 05:48 PM

so why then in your quiver, do you have a 6,9,12,15,18 ?

Because i use the same kites in the buggy, i bought the 12m earlier this yr and have not flown the others since! Except for the 6m on a few nukin cold fronts. By the way i have kited 100 days in the past 4 months. I would say that i have over 350 hrs on the 12m alone plus about a 3000 hrs on phantoms together. Not bad for one design. I wore the 15m out after 4000 miles in the buggy and 300 hrs on the water. It stills flys but is tissue paper thin. I meant 40 mph winds, not fun but doable. I mostly switch to 6m if its blowing over 35 mph on the water..........................aj

Taper123 - 25-4-2008 at 09:31 AM

Aj adjusts his line set lengths as well. I've seen him kiteboard, going upwind on a 12m Phantom with a long set of lines... and then I handed him my 16m Scorpion on a standard length lines and he could barely get moving. Shorter lines for high winds and long lines for light winds will definetly extend the range of the PL kites.

I just made a set of extensions for myself to try out soon... as the 10M scorpion will turn on a dime and is a blast to buggy with. Nothing like throwing a few kite loops as your hauling b@tt with a passenger in tow to pick up the pace.

Board size makes a difference too. I have a Slingshot 137 that almost never gets wet as I have to be so freakin powered up to use it... and a Cabrinah 180 that I like to cruise around on.

Unless you can buy new LEI's, the flysurfers or PL's will never leave you standing there cursing at a leaky strut bladder... and keep going like the energizer bunny time after time.

BeamerBob - 1-5-2008 at 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaVinch
Is that you up in the air Dom? :o

Congrats, you are a know it all now! Does it feel different? There are 4 of you now.