Power Kite Forum

Terminology Questions and General Questions

Bryan_Jarvis - 13-6-2008 at 10:06 AM

Alright all you Kite Gurus,

I have some general questions, I’m Fairly new to the power kiting thing ( I flown 2 string Frame kites, A LOT Different) I hope this is the right place to post these questions.

#1. What is a fixed bridal? Is there a non-fixed bridal, if so what’s it called?
#2. What’s the different between on shore wind and off shore wind?
#3. Were is a good website to learn about wind?
#4. What’s a profoil? Is it different from my 2 string Stylus Prism P3?
#5.I want to go 4 string. is it more powerful 4 string than 2 string.. same kite,same wind?
#6.In other post everyone is suggesting a Beamer 3m, Could I eventually after a lot of practice on the land take to the water with this kite?
#7. is there Water Kites and Land Kites?

I have more questions but this is a good start. I am obviously a newbee so go ahead crack some jokes I can take it.

Thanks in advance for the info.
:megan::tumble:

furbowski - 13-6-2008 at 10:28 AM

wow, you are indeed a newbie but you are asking all the right Q's... I've rarely seen one who seems as switched on as you seem to be!

rock on, dude!

1) fixed bridle means you cannot change the angle of attack (AoA) of the kite while flying. Depower kites can change the angle of attack. the higher the AoA, the more power (up to a point). For more information, go on wikipedia.com, enter "airfoils", read that, then enter "angle of attack", open that in another window, pick the right answer from the disambiguation page, and read as many of the links on both as you can take on.

2) on shore wind in from the ocean blowing on to the shore, so very smooth and even, few gusts and changes of direction. Off shore wind may come over hills or around trees so it it more gusty and the angle of the wind will change a lot. The more the wind speed / angle varies, the more difficult it is to fly your kite.

3) windguru.com is the best I've run across so far. It will give you good information on wind conditions predicted in your area, but will not help you understand wind itself so well. Try wikipedia.com, enter "wind" in the search window there, and browse around on all the links, that will help you get started on understanding wind.

4) profoils are a kite brand, they are 4-line kites with quite a good reputation in the US. "power kite profoil" on google will get you more info.

5) 4 strings are not more powerful, but much more controllable, therefore safer (after the first gnarly bit of the learning curve...) Call them lines, not strings, BTW. Bit like going on a racing sailboat, looking at the mainsheet, and saying "what's that rope there for, huh?"

6) The beamer 3 could conceivably be used as a water kite, but it would be like barefoot water-skiing behind an aircraft carrier at at full military speed, more a stunt than anything else and probably not much fun, unlike wakeboarding behind a quality boat built for pulling boarders.

7) water kites are either closed cell foils or have sealed inflatable struts, therefore they don't sink when they crash. The 3m beamer is an open-celled foil and far too small for kite-surfing use. Any open-celled foil will be immediately useless when it hits the water.

I've only ever flown static on a beach with soft dry sand. I've had to teach myself, and a soft sandy beach with a gentle 8 to 10 mph breeze with a nice stable 3m like a Beamer will be the safest possible place to learn if you can't find anybody to help you out.

Some of those answers will raise more Q's than they answer. (angle of attack? huh?) If you don't like that, you might need to find another sport.
If you like that, you're going to have a lot of fun!
cheers,

furbo

Bladerunner - 13-6-2008 at 10:33 AM

1- Fixed bridle AND DEPOWER. With fixed bridle you can tweek the brakes to add performance. With a depower kite you can change the AOA ( angle of attack ) and allow air to spill off .

2- Onshore wind SAFE, GOOD because you can take long runs back and forth. offshore BAD because it can take you out to sea.

3- www.kitesurfingschool.org

4- Profoil is just a make of kite . Like ozone or flexifoil. It is similar to a P3 but is designed as 4 lines fixed bridle.

5- A bit more and a LOT more control. + you can reverse launch after a crash. Flying the kite backwards and then turning it back over to fly away !

6- There are OPEN cell foils and CLOSED cell foils. An open cell foil will stick to the water like suction cups. A closed cell foil has long thin sock like inlets to keep the water out and aid in relaunch. If you crash an open cell foil on water you are screwed. You must gather up and start again from shore.

7- See 6

Ha Ha Furbowski types WAY faster that me !

furbowski - 13-6-2008 at 10:37 AM

there you go, bro...

ask and you shall receive!

blade runner may not type so fast, but he's a much better kiter than I am, and he knows how to kitesurf, which i have yet to even attempt.

cheers,

furbo

Bladerunner - 13-6-2008 at 11:07 AM

Actually, although I have taken a half dozen lessons I was held up trying to figure out how to handle a surf board. I'm much better 2 footed. ( skis and blades ) I still suck on water. I can handle myself on an ATB well now so hope this is my summer to get upwind on water !

The extra power advantage with 4 lines is MOST obvious when riding. You can tweak the brakes to bring the kite back in the window and give a boost of power when moving .

Bryan_Jarvis - 13-6-2008 at 11:09 AM

Wow True Gurus in Action,

Thanks for all the help I’ll take the info and run with it. One more Quick question what does fly static mean?

Thanks, again

furbowski - 13-6-2008 at 11:12 AM

that's right, i still remember your snowbird days...

sorry to have miscalled your kitesurf abiltities, but still think you are a better kiter than I am, certaintly one of more broad experience as I have yet to experience apparent wind and the extra power boost you mention when flying such winds...

not to mention that flysurfer quiver, would love to fly those...

@ jarvis: flying static means you as the kite flyer are not moving around so much, standing up on your feet and maybe running around a bit (esp in the light and gusty wiggly wind) rather than riding some kind of board.

apparent wind kicks in when you begin moving at some kind of speed across the ground, ie moving downwind at 5 mph in an 8 mph breeze gives you only 3 mph apparent wind, but upwind at 5 mph in a 8 mph breeze will give you 10-11 mph (not 13 mph as it is impossible to sail directly upwind with any kind of kite / sailing equipment, the best possible is about 40 degrees off of directly upwind in a racing sailboat, more than that with most other sailing / windpower kit)

cheers,

furbo

cheers,

furbo

awindofchange - 13-6-2008 at 11:37 AM

For a little bit more clarification on question #1.....and because you are a complete beginner (which is very welcome on here) and also because there are tons of lurkers on here who have not yet asked the excellent questions that you are asking, I will go into a bit more detail on this one.

First lets explain what a Bridle is. The "bridle" of a kite is the line or network of lines that run from the sail of the kite or skin to the point where you attach your control lines to. This can be a very complex network of lines that "V" off into several other lines which eventually attach to the kite....OR, it can be a very simple one or two lines that runs from the edge of the kite to your flying lines. Basically any line or lines that are permanently attached to the kite that you hook up your flying lines (or control lines) to is considered a bridle. There are many different types of bridles on the planet, for this purpose we will only be discussing the two most common bridles used in power kites. This would be the "Fixed Bridle" and the "Depowerable Bridle".

A "Fixed Bridle" is basically what it says. The bridle is "Fixed" or permanently attached to the kite and is set up in such a way that it should not be changed. In most cases it is not recommended to change or adjust a Fixed Bridle. A Fixed Bridle is usually set up from the factory to give the optimum performance of a sail shape. By altering the bridle you will alter the shape of the sail which will usually negatively affect the performance and/or stability of the kite. To put in in simple terms, a "Fixed Bridle" kite is one that the bridle of the kite is permanent and the physical length and settings of the bridle cannot be changed during flight. With multiple bridles (dual or quad), you have the ability to change the angle of attack of the overall kite wing, but the actual shape of the bridle and sail is in a fixed position.

The other type of bridle that is discussed mainly on kites is a "Depowerable" bridle (also referred to as a "Depowerable Kite"). The easiest way to classify this type of bridle is an "Active Bridle System" that can be changed on demand from the pilot during flight. This type of bridle starts out similar to the "Fixed Bridle" in that the majority of bridle lines are still attached directly to the sail, but this type of bridle will usually be quite a bit more complex and usually incorporates additional pieces such as guide lines and pully's to make the bridle active and adjustable during flight. With this type of bridle, the pilot will have the ability to change the physical shape/curvature of the sail as well as change the overall angle of attack during flight and pretty much "on demand". The most common setup would be with using a free floating control bar that can be pushed/pulled to change the curvature of the kite (through the active bridle) while you fly. The basic operation is that when you pull the bar towards you, you don't necessarily change the angle of attack of the sail but instead pull in the trailing edge of the kite (bottom) as well as the middle of the kite while the leading edge stays constant. This is done at a ratio that will allow the kite to increase or decrease power while still maintaining stability and control. Think of it as having a large bed sheet and holding it in the wind. If you hold onto the very top of the sheet and let the rest of it hang loose, the bottom of the sheet will be picked up by the wind and it will just flap away in the wind with very little power. Now have someone else grab onto the bottom of the sheet and start to walk back towards you, pulling the sheet so it catches the wind. The Sheet will billow up and start to produce power. This would be similar to what is being done on a depowerable kite while you pull the bar towards you. You are "cupping" the kite in the wind to create more power. When you let the bar out, you spill the wind off the sail and the kite becomes "Depowered". Because of the design limitations of depowerable kites, they generally produce less power per size than a fixed bridled kite. Remember that the curvature of a fixed bridled kite is set at maximum power all the time. A Depowerable kite needs to be adjusted by the pilot to find the optimum power setting for the current winds. Also, because a depowerable kite needs to be able to stay flying and maintain stability when not set at the optimum setting, extra design and material must be used to keep the kite inflated and flying at settings that are far from optimum. This comes at a cost of overall performance. Because depowerable kites are usually quite a bit larger in size than fixed bridle kites to produce the same power, Depowerable kites are usually slower and not as agile as Fixed Bridle kites.

To put it in a nutshell and in simplest form. Fixed bridle kites have the bridles that are in one "Fixed" position and (in most cases) should not be changed. Depowerable kites have an active bridle that can be altered on demand from the pilot during flight.

Fixed bridle kites will produce a lot more power per size and be more efficient. Depowerable kites will produce less power per size but will have more wind range that they can be flown in because they can dump the wind and power as it increases.

Fixed bridle kites are set in the power they deliver in a given wind/speed. Depowerable kites can give bursts of power on demand by powering the kite up in excessive wind conditions. (Think getting big air on your board at any time!) :)

I hope this helps and also hope that I didn't screw anything up while typing. Any other experienced pilots, please feel free to comment/correct me on any of this if you can.

Bryan_Jarvis - 13-6-2008 at 04:17 PM

Kent Fantastic information……Thank you, for taking the time to explain….Power kite forum is the best!
Bryan

Bryan_Jarvis - 13-6-2008 at 04:23 PM

Question This Depowerable kite....IS the Beamer 3m one of these Kites? and does it have closed Cell or Open? Is that a request i can make to the Kite store? can you fly a Closed Cell kite on land? If so,is ther any disadvantages to flying the closed cell on land? Everyone is great...thanks for talking to the Newbee.
Bryan

WELDNGOD - 13-6-2008 at 04:29 PM

what the hell is a closed cell foil?

furbowski - 13-6-2008 at 08:06 PM

@ weldngod: bladerunner defines closed cell foils in his post. I've never seen one, but i hear flysurfer makes some pretty nice depowerable ones. Their SA 19m makes my kite lust kick in pretty hard... totally unreasonable kite for me to get at this point, though... You might mean what is a foil? "foil" is short for airfoil, the name for the shape a powerkite uses to get its power, maybe that is what confusing you... You got a good quiver, you're not pulling my leg are you?

@ bryan: depower kites are more expensive and have more complicated bridles and set-up / maintenance issues and as well demand more skills. B3 is a straightforwards, no-nonsense 4-line fixed bridle open-celled foil on handles and has a lot to teach you! closed-cell foils can take a few minutes to inflate, with something like the b3 you can fly as soon as you have set it up on the ground. Yes you can fly them on land, but stick with an open celled 4-line on handles for now, if you get the bug you will be getting lots of kites, get the closed cell foils and depowerables later.

BTW, I'm pretty new to kites, just the first to be quick on the keyboard after reading your posts. "awindofchange" is the closest thing to a kite guru to have posted on this thread.

Bryan_Jarvis - 13-6-2008 at 08:14 PM

Cool Thanks everyone....I walk away being less of a newbee.

:yes::lol:

Bladerunner - 14-6-2008 at 08:52 AM

You are thinking along some good lines !

It sounds like your focus is getting going on the water? MOST of the folks on here ride on land !!!!!!

To get going on the water you NEED to take the baby steps that EVERY new kiter has to. The 3m open cell foil that folks are talking about is like Furbowski described. An indestructable , simple, stable, fun tool to figure out the tricks to flying safely and relatively cheap. You just may end up wanting to re-sell your trainer. Most folks on here don't need closed cell or LEI so hold on to the the 3 as thier high wind kite + trainer. If you re-sell a Beamer you will get a good price and not have trouble unloading it. You can also use the 3m to start your body dragging phase.

IF WATER IS YOUR GOAL YOU MAY WANT TO LOOK AT THE HQ TSR OR SCOUT !!!! They come on a bar with a loop to hook in. They are designed as a kitesurf trainer ! You can always put a beamer on a bar though.

If you are moving to water you will move to a DEPOWER kite next ! It will fly on a bar + you will need to be hooked in to a harness.

Without a doubt the BEST money you can spend AFTER a trainer is to get proper lessons !!! The instructor will speed you through the learning process and have you riding safely on your own in no time. Figuring it out without an instructor can be very slow and hard !!!!

To ride on water you will be looking at LEI ( leading edge inflated ) kites most likely. Get a good used 1 or 2 for your 1st set because you will be hard on them. Best "waroos" and Ocean Rodeo "rise" are a couple of models that are great beginer kites at a great second hand price.

If you stick with foils Peter lynn makes an ARC shaped closed cell. Flysurfer and now Ozone make bridled ones. NEWER foils are very good . Older ones .... not so much. The same sort of applies to LEI's .

WELDNGOD - 14-6-2008 at 04:44 PM

I have never heard of a ram-air parafoil that has closed cells. Is this some kind of inflatable foil? All my kites are ram-air parafoils, that is what I prefer

flexiblade - 14-6-2008 at 06:51 PM

The Peter Lynn arcs are closed cell airfoils (twin-skins) - they have intake vents on the face (the part that faces towards you when you are flying) of the kite that are opened before launching to fill the kite with air - these are then shut with zippers and the kite launched from the side of the window. After launching there are a series of small one way inlets on the leading edge of the kite that finish off the inflating process. These are not ram-airs since the inlets on the leading edge are designed to allow air in and not out. The difference between the 2 is night and day - the twin-skins are a bit slower than ram-airs in turning but with the amount of depower that you can control and the amazing wind range (12 - 28mph with the 13m venom compared to say the 4.9m blade III 12 - 20mph - and higher only if you're crazy and don't really care about how you eat your food) it makes the twin-skins more affordable since one kite can cover the range of multiple fixed bridle ram-airs and the depower makes the operation of the twin-skins much more controllable and overall safer to fly.

WELDNGOD - 15-6-2008 at 04:28 AM

thanx flexiblade , never heard of it. sounds sweet, different but sweet. good info bro'