Power Kite Forum - Differences in Ripstop

Differences in Ripstop

lunchbox - 27-9-2008 at 06:11 PM

So I'm assuming that not all ripstop nylon is the same (as it relates to kites). Which made me curious, what makes one type of ripstop brand better than the other (i.e. more durable, stronger etc. - assume fabric weight is equal - 3/4 oz.)? Is it the material itself (i.e. different 'grade'), the 'special coating' they use?

Thanks.

NPWfever - 27-9-2008 at 07:03 PM

I know ripstop varies greatly in paragliders, Porcher is used in the Ozone Ultralight, and I know Apco coats their gliders with a special coating that is EXTREMELY UV resistant, there was a pilot I ran into today that had a 2004 wing that sounded like he just pulled it out of the box.

I'm assuming the same type of thing is done with kites.

ripsessionkites - 7-10-2008 at 08:47 PM

ripstop nylon and ripstop polyster come in different forms and weights, and coatings

Ripstop Mylar (75 gram)

UV treated 200 and 420 Denier Nylon

Ripstop nylon (60g/sq m)

Ripstop nylon (48g/sq m)

Icarex PC31 ripstop polyester (31 gram)

Icarex PC38 ripstop polyester (31 gram)

Chikara (42 gram)

Porcher Marine (38 gram)

Aqua Ripstop Porcher (40 gram)

Skytex Porcher sport (40 gram)

hope this helps.

BeamerBob - 8-10-2008 at 04:25 AM

Ok Rip, now you've done it. This is where the discussion begins about who uses what and to what advantage/disadvantage each one offers. Anyone know about fabrics certain companies use?

kiteNH - 8-10-2008 at 06:12 AM

I know that I absolutely love the 40D nylon that Ozone uses on the Access. My favorite kite material out of any kite I have. I wonder if this is the same as any of the ones that rip listed above?

lunchbox - 8-10-2008 at 08:37 AM

Thanks Rip!

Quote:

Ok Rip, now you've done it. This is where the discussion begins about who uses what and to what advantage/disadvantage each one offers. Anyone know about fabrics certain companies use?

Hey BB,

Yeah this is the real reason I had posed this question. I was and am still on the quest to find the perfect light wind kite that delivers the most power for it's size. One thing that I've noted is that different manufacturers use different types of ripstop and some are lighter but just as durable as others. Obviously this makes a big difference in really light wind.

Thanks to Rip and others I've been able to try different kites. Right now, I would have to say that my favorite is the Ozone Yakuza. The fabric they use is very light yet so durable and the power is definitely there and soo stable. The RM+ is right there as well on all counts, just need to fly it a little more...

BeamerBob - 8-10-2008 at 08:56 AM

You say the yak is stable? I had developed the impression that it was particular about having good winds otherwise it would go into tantrums. In other words don't consider it for inland winds. Am I wrong on that?

kiteNH - 8-10-2008 at 09:25 AM

This kite material stuff is confusing. Here is what Ozone has listed for the Yak:

High tenacity Toray rip-stop nylon

And for the Access/Frenzy/Manta:

40D Nylon Rip-stop

Does anyone know the weights of these materials?

lunchbox - 8-10-2008 at 09:57 AM

Quote:

You say the yak is stable? I had developed the impression that it was particular about having good winds otherwise it would go into tantrums. In other words don't consider it for inland winds. Am I wrong on that?

Well, I should have probably added, very stable for a race kite

It is definitely not as stable as a Cult or Rage for instance and if the wind is extremely gusty, it would probably not be the best kite to put up.

....but for normal inland gusty conditions it's really nice. I was actually very impressed with it's stability compared to other race kites and even intermediate kites I've flown.

If you have a chance, you gotta fly one!

revpaul - 8-10-2008 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox

Quote:

Well, I should have probably added, very stable for a race kite

have you flown a Razor at all? i'm curious if it handles relatively as well as a Yak.:puzzled:

awindofchange - 8-10-2008 at 11:48 AM

I think the Yakuza (and other race kites) have got a somewhat bad reputation as being a nasty kite to fly. This is very far from the truth.

Race kites have a very high aspect ratio, in simple terms they are very long and very narrow, compared to a low aspect ratio kite that is not as long and has more material in the center. Race kites also have a very refined wing tip and usually come to more of a point where low aspect ratio kites are more rounded on the wing tips.

What happens is that a race kite will cut through the air very fast and maintain its speed through the entire wind window, this produces a tremendous amount of virtual wind which gives the race kites their improved performance and much more power per size than slower kites.

The problem isn't that the race kite is unstable, it is that the race kite (because of the speed and increased virtual wind) will overfly the window very easily without giving much notice to the pilot that it is or has passed the edge of the window where the kite remains stable. A qualified pilot will realize this and redirect the kite back into the window before the speed slows and the negative wind on the kite finally takes over (Luffing occures).

A Race kite will also be a little more twitchy in gusty conditions because it will accelerate much faster than a lower aspect ratio kite. So when the gust hits the kite wants to take off and utilize the increased wind instead of absorbing the gust and being less responsive.

A qualified pilot who is in tune with the kite and knows how to get the most out of the kite will have very little problems if any from a race kite in any wind condition - no more than any other kite in the same conditions. Most of the time you have to hold the race kite back a little where on a lower aspect ratio kite you can just let it fly in any condition.

It is funny when we get out on the dry lake beds here and I finally talk one of the newer pilots to give the Yak a try. It usually takes them a little time to get use to it but when they finally figure out the personality of the kite they love it. The bad thing is that when they get back on their lower aspect ratio kites they always seem to be yanking the lines to try and get it to fly faster like the Yakuza.

I stress that you shouldn't be afraid of the Yakuza (or other race kites) but realize that when you fly it you may need to give the kite a little more attention and be in tune with what the kite is doing while you fly. But the reward is incredible awesome power and mind blowing speed.

Ok, end of the hijack on this thread....

Back to topic....
The material used in the kites is usually so close from one to the other that it makes very little difference in one to the other. Ripstop Polyester is stronger and less prone to stretch than Ripstop Nylon and is preferred by most of the higher end kites. Still, the material isn't the most important and it usually comes down to the coatings and processing that is done to the material after it is made. For example, PC31 (Icarex) is just Ripstop Poly with that companies special coating process. That doesn't mean that another company using Ripstop Poly and putting their own coatings on it isn't the same stuff....or it may be a little different. PC31 Icarex is also a trademark for the company that produces that material - and because they are the only ones that CAN produce it, it is one of the most expensive materials on the market. Still, other manufactures can use a Ripstop Poly and their own coatings and it may be just as good or even better than Icarex.

It is hard to compare one brand to the next because manufacturers have started using their own names for the same material depending on the coatings they put on it. For example I could order in Ripstop Poly in bulk, coat it with some fancy wazoo chemical that I happen to come across (water proofing stuff from an outdoor sports store) and then turn and call it something like "Charkazic" and boast it is the best material in the world....or at least better than brand Y's material.

Icarex, Porcher Marine, Skytex, Aqua are all basically the same type of Ripstop Nylon or Poly with different types of coatings....heck, they could even be the exact same thing, just called different for patent reasons.

I personally believe that the actual design and bridling of the material is much more important to performance than the material used.

Anyways - great thread - hope some of this babble helps.

lunchbox - 8-10-2008 at 12:23 PM

Excellent feedback and information as usual AWOC...Thanks!

Quote:

It is funny when we get out on the dry lake beds here and I finally talk one of the newer pilots to give the Yak a try. It usually takes them a little time to get use to it but when they finally figure out the personality of the kite they love it. The bad thing is that when they get back on their lower aspect ratio kites they always seem to be yanking the lines to try and get it to fly faster like the Yakuza.

Soo True...Kinda sucks though...Had this great 6.0 Rage that I used to love to fly,,,then I flew the Yak....about 10 mins later I knew what I had to do...The Rage was sold a week or two later....God I love those Yaks!!!!

Quote:

have you flown a Razor at all? i'm curious if it handles relatively as well as a Yak.

Unfortuantely, I haven't flown a Razor and so can't comment...But for what it's worth, I have heard that they don't like gusty winds and are less stable that the Yak.

Taper123 - 8-10-2008 at 05:45 PM

Like Kent said... kite design plays a huge part in how a kite flys, and the material choices play a part in it's longeveity. I find even certain brands of the same weight of cloth can have different characteristics. For instance Challenger and North both are the same weight, but I personally prefer one over the other.

How it's put together, stress point reinforcement, bridle material, etc etc etc... all play a part. I make all my personal kites with sleeved spectra bridal lines. Once I finally made a bridling board... all of my kites have flown better since.

Tons of things go into making a kite. If you ever make one, it will make a person appreciate what goes into it... and they either make more of their own, or simply save the time/money and buy a high end kite that will be reliable for years. The big name brands deliver a quality product that fly consistently for years, while the cheaper brands will have more stretch, bridle problems, and design issues... or at least that's my opinion.

Funny... it's just like tents. Same plant in China might make the wally werld special one day, and the REI's and other high end tents the next. Same with kites. The materials specified and the engineering behind it make a huge difference in how well a product holds up. I've had my tent up in high winds before and it held up well while the cheapos were blown over or had the framework snap.

awindofchange - 8-10-2008 at 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taper123
Funny... it's just like tents. Same plant in China might make the wally werld special one day, and the REI's and other high end tents the next. Same with kites. The materials specified and the engineering behind it make a huge difference in how well a product holds up. I've had my tent up in high winds before and it held up well while the cheapos were blown over or had the framework snap.

Hijack alert again...
Speaking of tents, best tent in the world is a Springbar http://www.springbar.com . I have the Family Traveler and it is over 15 years old and still in perfect shape. If you want a tent for life, check these babies out! Simple to set up, will hold up in 50 mph winds and has a ton more space (& headroom) than any wally world tent.

end hijack...

BeamerBob - 8-10-2008 at 06:07 PM

Wow, I feel like I just sat down to class with the Jedis of kiting. Very informative but yet not surprising or arguable once you lay it all out like that. AWOC, you make me want to try a Yak someday. Maybe my buggy skills will be to a level to be able to make use of its abilities and appreciate the intricacies of the kite at the same time. I need to let the smoke clear from my quiver for awhile anyway. I have 2 kites in the mail this week, and a month old buggy. Taper I agree with you and AWOC that expensive fabric can't make up for a bad kite design, but I'm sure that with a primo kite design, the right fabric can make a difference in performance.

ripsessionkites - 8-10-2008 at 06:36 PM

thx kent for settling the record straight on race kites. :tumble:
if you're flying your race kites inland or in gusty conditions, you can do certain things to slow it down so the pilot doesnt luff it.

you should all be flying race kites, once you do ... you can fly anything fixed bridle. :smilegrin:

Toray is company that makes ripstop nylon if i remember correctly. just like Chikara / Skytex etc etc. personally i like ripstop polyster, yes the ripstop grids are bigger so your rip/tear will be bigger. however polyster is lighter, and also is more water resisant.

IMO, and still my favorite light wind kite - Skytiger HI 100 (Icarex), modied / removed trailing edge flaps. this kite got me going up to 15km/h in about 3km/h using a pl standard. i believe jellis was also another owner of one of these.

i'd have to write a book about every kite manufacture and what materials they use for each model. i think its better you just check the websites. ROFL.

did the topic change to bridle material and kite profile?

BeamerBob - 8-10-2008 at 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites
i'd have to write a book about every kite manufacture and what materials they use for each model. i think its better you just check the websites. ROFL.

did the topic change to bridle material and kite profile?

It would be a moot point now that its been pointed out that the fabric doesn't make the kite but can only let it be the best it can be. No way would most of us choose a kite based on its fabric alone. We might be curious about the fabric but other factors make us want it.

RonH - 8-10-2008 at 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites

Toray is company that makes ripstop nylon if i remember correctly. just like Chikara / Skytex etc etc. personally i like ripstop polyster, yes the ripstop grids are bigger so your rip/tear will be bigger. however polyster is lighter, and also is more water resisant.

Toray is poly... nice and soft and very durable.

I think that some manufactures use quality material and use techniques that prolong the life of a kite. These companies can and do charge a premium for their products.

Others may not have the best designs and even the best fabric can fail if the design does not allow for the high stress points/wear point on a kite.

I am not saying don't buy a new brand of kite but there are reasons why "some" are considered the best. (until an upstart company knocks the crown off)

Ron

Roger - 14-8-2022 at 10:11 AM

most people might already know about the Aluula material, but this will point out the Quantum leap in ripstop material .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p2NezULivk

Randy - 14-8-2022 at 03:04 PM

I've been trying to figure where to get some, but haven't had much luck. As I understand it, aluula replaces the heavy dacron fabric on kitesurf kites and wings. This mainly the tubes that hold the bladders.

rtz - 14-8-2022 at 10:09 PM

Some of the competing brands are coming out with their own lightweight versions of it. Alula is expensive for now because I think the brands have to pay a royalty to use it.

bobalooie57 - 20-8-2022 at 01:04 PM

Randy, are you still making kites?
I have a near new China copy of an early Peter Lynn kite that I flew once. It had stretchy lines with it, and didn't fly very good. It might be good to reclaim the nylon from. I think it's 5M.
If you want it, I'll send it to you.

Randy - 20-8-2022 at 04:06 PM

Check you U2U Bob!

bobalooie57 - 21-8-2022 at 09:36 AM

Replied

bobalooie57 - 24-8-2022 at 01:31 PM

Hey Randy, check your U2U

Randy - 26-8-2022 at 01:23 PM

Hey Bob,

Got the kite today. Thanks again. We'll see what I can do with it.

I tried to send another u2u but some reason it keeps saying over run my limit, even after I delete bunch of them....

bobalooie57 - 26-8-2022 at 02:20 PM

Wow! I didn't think it would arrive until tomorrow. I'm glad it got there. I hope you can get it flying. I tried to fly it once or twice on the lines that came with it. They were very stretchy, and I didn't have much control. Have fun!:D
I've had issues with the U2U here too, but I can't remember what I did to solve them. Though it might have to do with the subject block being left empty?

bobalooie57 - 26-8-2022 at 02:22 PM

I guess that wasn't it:D

Randy - 26-8-2022 at 05:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bobalooie57

I guess that wasn't it:D

Got your new message as you suggested. Tried sending a new message, but didn't work. I'll just delete some more messages. Anyway, just wanted to let you know it arrived and I'm getting some ideas together. One I thought might be interesting was something like this. First, however, I want to see what's going on with the kite as-is.

bobalooie57 - 30-8-2022 at 04:02 AM

I've forgotten how to do so many things here, now that you mention it, I think I had the same problem, back when you could only keep 100 on file.:D
Thanks for reminding me :thumbup: