ifly3dd - 3-1-2009 at 10:14 PM
Hi folks.
I'm Danny from Shreveport, LA. I've been flying powered paragliders for a couple years now and have been thinking about getting into kite buggies or
land boards for when the wind is too strong to fly my ppg. I'll still do more ppg so I don't want to spend a bunch of money - maybe buy some used
equipment from someone who just upgraded their equipment or got new stuff for Christmas.
I'll be mostly inland on soccer fields, but might take the rig to the beach once a year. I'm about 195 lbs and in pretty good condition to be over
40, but I don't intend to be trying too many extreme maneuvers.
Any suggestions? Thanks.
Danny
furbowski - 3-1-2009 at 10:32 PM
search for "kite buggy speed shop" for a good selection of buggies.
i haven't yet made the jump to buggies -- no money, not much room where I live and mostly fly static.
I don't know how the skills transfer from PG to kite flying, but I reckon kite flying will be far more dynamic, you'll be throwing the kite around the
air a lot -- lots of folks on here do both, I'll be curious to see what they say.
the conventional wisdom on the site is to start with a small kite about 3-4 m and move up in size once the skills are in place, but from the times
I've seen folks ground-handling their PGs I reckon you could start quite a bit bigger?
How much wind is too much for PPG? around 10-20 knots? 5-8 sq. meters will move a buggy with ample power at 10 knots, at 20 knots you could get by
with 3 sq. m. again, that's just conventional wisdom, not my own experieince, I reckon folks with more credibility will be by soon...
You've already got a helmet, you'll need more body pro if you don't already have. $100-300
A couple kites, at least, for your wind range. $300-800 for a 3-4 sq m and a 5-7 sq m, smaller than that for wind range 15-25 knots. Some kites are
much better for buggies than others, ask on this forum before buying used.
Buggy $500 - 2500. Don't buy Rockville or Nova, the peter lynn comp or Flexi basic buggies can be found sometimes for $500, usually a bit more.
Harness $50-150.
Some kind of quick release homebuilt for 5$ to top notch wichard and snatch block $200 and lots of other options in that range.
may have left out a couple things, you're looking at $1K minimum, more likely 1.5 to 2K, and could easily spend upwards of 5K to get started.
also go to the kite buggy section of this forum and read all the threads with over ten posts, that will give you a good base of book knowledge.
and search for "popeyethewelder kite buggy" for the best gallery of buggies on the web.
and that's as much as I can say. The experienced guys will be along soon to correct all my mistakes!
ifly3dd - 3-1-2009 at 10:48 PM
I do have a good bit of time ground handling my pg, so that shouldn't be a problem. It's a 28 sq m wing.
I don't like to fly here at much over 6 or 7 knots. It just gets too bumpy as the trees create lots of rotor.
We have quite a few days with the wind blowing at 10 - 15 and sometimes more, but just as many days at 0 - 5.
Thanks for the info.
furbowski - 3-1-2009 at 11:01 PM
this kite would do you well:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=7905
it's maybe more than you would want to spend, but the quality and pedigree of the kite is top notch and it's built by one of the oldest companies in
the business -- flexifoil -- specifically as a low-lift high-traction for buggy use.
check to see if the angle of attack is adjustable, if it is, it will be a very versatile kite, if not, still quite solid.
have fun with your research...
Bladerunner - 4-1-2009 at 01:02 PM
This is the best deal on here for a beginer at the moment IMHO ! I'm SURE He didn't take $125 !
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=7513
stetson05 - 4-1-2009 at 01:45 PM
go to the for sale area, and look for that IMP or a HQ beamer. I think I saw one for sale lately. You can always build a home made buggy. I built
one for between $50-$100 that worked ok. I bought a Rockville buggy and then a couple of weeks later saw a PL comp for sale for about $100 more and I
could have kicked myself. If you build your own buggy you could get rolling for closer to $200.00 if you time it right. Good luck!
ifly3dd - 4-1-2009 at 03:27 PM
Thanks, guys. I've emailed the guy about the 3.5 imp.
Are there any plans available for buggies? I could manage building one if I had some more info. I've built a trike to mount my paraglider on that
worked out pretty well.
I've also seen a Mongoose landboard that is available. Is buggying or landboarding harder to do? Does one or the other require a larger wing? I
guess the Imp would be able to pull me around a flat soccer field ok?
Bladerunner - 4-1-2009 at 03:45 PM
Go to Popeyethewelder's website for buggy builds.
Avoid the Mongoose ! A cheap option but not a great option.
Buggy is slightly easier to pick up for most people.
Yes, the Imp will be big enough ! Typically You end up with 3 kites ! Low average and high wind kites. The Imp will become your high wind kite as You
progress! Next You will want a 5 or 6m for the same winds that scared You on the Imp. After that an 8 or 10 for low winds !!!!
Trust me on this one 
furbowski - 4-1-2009 at 04:42 PM
yeah the imp is good. idk if you'll be fully powered in 10-15 knots, but you'll definitely get moving!
and yes three kites is the absolute minimum, esp with fixed bridles and narrower wind ranges. Not many folks are even happy with three depowers (more
expensive, wider wind range) trust BR on that one! But the good news is that kites are wayyyyy cheaper than PG's!
flexiblade - 5-1-2009 at 06:20 PM
If you've got some experience on a skateboard or have exceptionally well developed balance you could do the landboard - if not then you may end up
spending about $200 for a board that will smash your hips up on the learning curve - painful experience I paid only $60 to learn.
Buggying on the other hand can be picked up fairly easily - it's really all about you kite skills.
If your winds' top speeds are around 15 knots than a 3m kite will be a good start - most people suggest the 3m beamer - I prefer to go with a 3m Pansh
Legend - reason: half the price for a kite you're going to move up from anyways. Later on you'll come back to it mainly for nostalgic reasons since
you're skill level will have pushed you farther up the kite food chain. Depowers are the way to go but not until you have mastered the basic skills
of: Piloting, Powering, Panicking.
Piloting being the basic skills of putting the kite where you want when you want.
Powering is knowing where to put the kite to get the most power you can out of it and where to put the kite to get the least power you want out of it.
(I take it from you PPG experience you know about the wind window and all that jazz)
Panicking is the most important skill to master - what to do when something goes wrong ... horribly wrong. This can only be learned through
experience. Again your time spent paragliding will speed this whole process along compared to someone that doesn't understand the wind and its fickle
nature.
Bladerunner and Furbowski nailed it if you want to build your own buggy - Popeye the Welder is the man - his site will answer most if not all your
questions about a buggy build. http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder
ifly3dd - 5-1-2009 at 08:29 PM
Yeah, I could see how it could be easier to do a nice face-plant from a land board.
I think I'll go for the buggy. Now the fun part is finding one. If anyone knows where I could find a decent used one, please point me in that
direction. I could build it, but buying would be quicker. Are there other forums I could look at? I've searched for yahoo groups, but didn't see a
lot of activity there.
I bought the Ozone 3.5 Imp, so the kite is on the way. (BTW, do you call them kites or wings?) I've taken my 28m pg wing out (just ground handling)
in 15 mph wind and it's a hoot to try to hang onto. But once it's up, it wants to stay right overhead. I can get a few seconds of airtime just
moving the risers around, creating the resistance as you describe, and jumping against wind.
But I do understand how much the wind determines the flight. Rotor / thermals / gusts can be very bad when you're 20' in the air.
Thanks for the very useful info. I'll take all the advice I can get.
Danny
flexiblade - 5-1-2009 at 10:06 PM
For a used buggy you can find them on Ebay - this forum - craigslist - its all timing unless you can afford a new buggy.
A new buggy can be anywhere from $250 - $350 for a rockville/radsail brand buggy, $500 - $600 for a flexifoil/peterlynn buggy, and $800 and up for a
libre (these are a really nice ride).
This is why I decided to build my own. The first incarnation took me a week and worked but needed improving - a year and a half later and 3 major
modifications to the same buggy and I'm set, here's some pics http://s414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/waxphone/?albumview... - I wouldn't trade my buggy for the best and newest libre - I would trade popeye
for one of his but I would definitely be getting the better end of the deal - the man is a craftsman. If I were you and I had the availability of the
tools and material needed I would build the buggy as I worked on improving my flying skills - I was flying for three months before I even sat in my
buggy. Don't rush it - it's like a good woman - you want to take your time to get to know her before you make a pass at her - make it last and enjoy
every step of the way.
And by the way, yes we refer to them as "kites"
ragden - 6-1-2009 at 06:06 AM
Flexi, How much did that cost you to make?
flexiblade - 6-1-2009 at 08:52 AM
the first one about $110 total for steel - wheels. By the time I finished with the fourth generation about $550 - the Nankang Big tires were $40 a
piece - one of the bigger expenses - but so worth it. The most expensive thing in making a homebrew buggy is time - the total time I've spent working
on my buggy, about ... hard to tell ... in hours .... about 150 - but that was mainly trying out different designs then changing them and then
changing them and then changing them. If anyone is interested I'll post a design layout in a little bit for the "bare bones buggy build" a buggy
for under a hundred dollars.
ifly3dd - 6-1-2009 at 10:12 AM
I'd definitely like to see the design layout. Will you post it here or on a new topic?
I mentioned above that I've got a really simple trike that I made for mounting my paramotor. I could possibly work toward modifying that into a kite
buggy. It's made of aluminum since weight is more of an issue if you're trying to fly, but it should be strong enough.
I was wondering where you get the wheels and if you can you get the axles from the same place. I was using 12" bicycle tires on my ppg trike, but I
don't like how they are mounted on the rear axle. I've got a picture of it, but not sure how to post it here.
BeamerBob - 6-1-2009 at 10:25 AM
I gave my 13 year old son (Wexler) his first buggy lesson last week. He is very intuitive with kites and impresses most everyone that sees him fly a
kite. When he got in the buggy, he forgot about half of what he apparently knew flying static. The lesson here is to be VERY comfortable with your
kite(s) to the point that you know what they are going to do before they do it, and your pre-correction is accurate and timely every time. The other
way of looking at it is you should be able to watch a less experienced flyer and be frustrated that they didn't see a problem about to happen and make
it go away before it actually occurred. Then you are ready to sit in a buggy, but you will still be embarrassed at how badly you fly your kite on
your first few buggy trials. Another thing a wise buggy guy once said (don't remember the author) if things are going bad in the buggy with your feet
on the pegs, they will most certainly get worse if you put your feet down.
kitemaker4 - 6-1-2009 at 12:01 PM
Hi Danny
There are several of us that buggy in the Lafayette area to bad you are not closer to join us on the weekend. You will find inland wind can be very
gusty at times. We fly in the middle of Lafayette in a large parking lot. We have discovered that nasa wings do very well in gusty inland wind. I
have been flying nasa wings for over 3 years now and have not flown a foil in years. There are two beaches in Louisiana that you can buggy on. The
first one is Grand Isle and the second is Holly beach and we are close enough to just go for the day. We also go to Galveston but that is a weekend
trip or longer. Let me know if I can help.
Susan (npw goddess)
Taper123 - 6-1-2009 at 04:56 PM
Hmmmm....
If you want to make it to Texas one weekend when we're headed to the beach, you could enjoy the best of both worlds. Bring your powered paraglider
and have some fun... then land and join us and fly some kites. There's usually someone who will let you try a buggy if you can fly a kite well.
If the weather is good, looks like there might even be some kite buggy races January 24-25 on the western end of Galveston. But if not, the buggy
gang in Louisianna is a ton of fun as well.
ifly3dd - 6-1-2009 at 06:43 PM
Taper,
I've flown my PPG at West Beach in Galveston. It was awesome. That laminar air off the gulf makes for 1-step vertical launches and zero speed
tip-toe landings.
While there, we saw some monstrous kites that they pulled back down with a Hummer. I do hope to make it back down there sometime this year.
Shreveport's not too far to drive down for a couple days.
flexiblade - 6-1-2009 at 08:12 PM
Wheels are generally wheel barrow tires which can be picked up for as cheap as $10 a piece or even cheaper depending on where you go and what size you
get.
piku303 - 7-1-2009 at 12:31 PM
get a used pansh legend...
if you have access to a welder and angle grinder build your own buggy...
all in all with kite, steel, wheels, grinding discs blah blah blah
maybe 300
somebody mentioned above 1000 for a new setup....you can buy a kite, a brand new welder, and the materials to build the buggy for under 1000. it just
depends on how willing you are to metal fab...PM me if you want to know more about metal fabrication to build your own buggy
furbowski - 7-1-2009 at 12:56 PM
of course you can go way cheaper if you build your own...
but if you if you want to fly quick and try to buy cheap, you get cheap: it would be hard to cover a full wind range, be protected, and have decent
buggy for less than 1K if what you do is go out and buy all your stuff in a week, that's what I was on about above.
If you build, and already have tools and TIME then can go way cheaper.
But if you have time -- and the patience / ability to learn -- then it's a no-brainer, build! you'll get all your tools and kites and have a buggy (or
two / three / ???) for less than 1K... plus a lot more skills....
dylanj423 - 7-1-2009 at 02:02 PM
I wish I had the space to build a buggy... I definitely would if that were an option. Until then, I will just keep on saving for a Libre.
By the way, in reference to an earlier post (easier to do a faceplant on a board)... I have been buggying about 4 times, now, and I think that I have
taken as many spills out of a buggy in those four times, as I did off a board the first 4 times I tried it. That doesnt count how many times I got off
the board 'cause I knew I was about to fall, though.
I have also been somewhat aggressive in the bug, so that probably factors into it, also. Just cause youre sitting down, doesnt make it completely
safe, though. Safer... yeah.
All in all, you will be able to buggy more than you would be able to KGB (kite ground board) because the terrain and wind requirements are a bit
different.
I recommend you keep an eye out for a good price on a good board, and get it, too. I love it all... unless the wind aint blowin'
WELDNGOD - 7-1-2009 at 02:15 PM
Hey Flexiblade,:cool2: Pretty work dude,do ya work in the metal trades or just hobby? Either way ,nice build.:bigok:
And Half the fun is going back home and improving it. Then go back out and test it. Try to break it then rebuild it. Doesn't even seem like
work to me, more like meditation.
WG
That's why my garage is full of buggies now
IF3DD , what you need to ask yourself is "do I really not mind getting body slammed on the hard pack? At 25-40 mph? Trust me ,it hurts. I have
wiped out so hard once, I felt like my guts were gonna fall out of my butthole. Buggy is way safer, until you get bored with safe, then... well you
know.
flexiblade - 7-1-2009 at 06:43 PM
I work in a foundry that does Bronze casting - and I feel the same way about the time involved - it is meditating - unTIL THE STUPID THING DOESN'T
FIT!!! It's always something in a build - a part is a 1/16 or 1/32 off and you have to take it all apart and grind off a little nub then fit it all
back together and find that it's still off 1/64. Ehhh - it just reteaches you the old rule about measure twice and cut once.
I still think that starting with a pansh 3m Legend ($140) take some time to learn what the kite does in different winds (start out in 8 to 10mph and
work your way up in wind speed - try and stay away from gusty winds - they can take what you think is a weak kite and turn it into a killer) and start
a buggy build while your learning to fly the kite - by the time you get mastery of the kite you will have yourself a nice homebrew to put those skills
to use.
What dylanj423 said about buggying can be true - if you push it hard - I used to dump my buggy all the time with the first generation design (the rear
axle was about 4 1/2 feet wide and would tip easily to one side when slightly overpowered) and I wanted the thing to move faster than 5mph - you will
learn what surfaces work best for buggying (beaches by far are the best followed by playa (dry lake bed - a bit bumpy but fast to ride on) and finally
grass - which can be difficult depending on how deep it is and how "clumpy it is - asphalt parking lots are a resort of the desperate- they will
destroy your kites and put your person at serious risk of getting cheese grated). I will be posting my buggy plans later tonight for scrutiny of the
forum members - especially the builders - I'm curious to see what people will have to say about them.
ifly3dd - 17-1-2009 at 06:08 PM
My new (to me) Ozone Imp 3.5m arrived a couple days ago and I was able to take it out today. The wind was about 10-12 with gusts over 15. It
launched very easily and after a couple minutes of getting used to the way the brakes work, I was able to make it go pretty much where I wanted. It
did have some decent power when the wind picked up... I'm sure it would pull a buggy across the flat soccer field. Loops with the power lines were
pretty easy and even quicker when using the brake lanes. And with the brakes, it slowly came back down for an easy landing.
So, now what? What other flying techniques can I try? What else will these kites do?
I do have a buggy coming this week, and I'm sure it will be challenging to get on it and start moving around the field.
I'm also getting ready to make a NPW9 4.8m. I've got the material in hand, but need to find some dacron hollow core line for the bridles. I was
thinking about just using the flying lines and handles from the Imp. Is there a potential problem with that, or should I have different flying lines
for each kite?
furbowski - 17-1-2009 at 06:58 PM
sounds like the imp didn't have too many surprises for you with your previous PPG experience...
that should change when you get the buggy going, esp. with winds steady above 15 mph! and that's when 3m kites begin to deliver decent power...
kitemaker4 is the NPW guru on the forum, she's the one to respond to your NPW Q's, search her threads for her builds.
your lines and handles should work fine for the NPW, but my understanding (not having flown them) is that you'll need to fly them with constant brake
tension...
flexiblade - 17-1-2009 at 10:16 PM
Yeah, the npw's fly weird compared to a ramair kite - just as furbowski said they need to have tension on the brakes in order to maintain their shape
- nice thing about them is you can put them anywhere in the sky - they can even fly backwards - you'll get the hang of them pretty quick - sounds like
things are moving right along for you.
DAKITEZ - 17-1-2009 at 11:08 PM
One of the best pieces of advise I got to transition from static flying to a buggy is: " You need to be able to fly the kite without watching it".
This is sooo true. When most people fly static they are standing there watching their kite constantly. When you are in a buggy you need to watch where
you are going not the kite.
furbowski - 17-1-2009 at 11:16 PM
yeah, that was my biggest problem my one time on buggy after a year of flying static. It drove me nuts trying to look at the kite and where i was
going at the same time since it is impossible!! :o (on the beam reaching i was doing that day with a big kite in light winds, not so hard I would
imagine going downwindish with a smaller kite in bigger winds)
Since then I've been doing the coreylama "kite chi" thing as much as possible every session, think his "kite chi" video is still up on youtube. It's
helped my jumping immensely... that would be something to work on...
just occurred to me that you might have much of that skill already as i imagine PG pilots don't look at their kite that much while flying:dunno:...
ifly3dd - 18-1-2009 at 07:57 AM
We usually take a quick glance on launch to make sure it's coming up right, but the adjustments after that are usually by feel. Once in the air, I
don't look at it unless I'm getting bounced around the sky. If I'm flying straight and smooth, the wing is doing its job.
What is the best transition from standing to getting in the buggy. Which side do you mount from? Do you start with the kite moving in the direction
you're pointing or get it still before sitting down and then fly it toward the direction you want to go? What path should the kite be on to get it
moving into the power zone? I hope that question makes sense. Is there an optimum angle for the kite to be flying to get the most power, or is that
just a "feel" thing? To slow down for turning, do you bring the kite back to 12:00? Are turn-arounds always made down wind?
Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I've actually never seen anyone buggying close enough to pay attention to those details, and most videos I've
watched show the buggies already in motion. If there is a video somewhere that covers this, I'd like to find it.
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback. On other forums, folks aren't always as nice and helpful as you have been.
Be safe and have fun!
Danny
dylanj423 - 18-1-2009 at 09:27 AM
I just started buggying, so I am certainly no expert, but I will tell you how I do these things. Also, I think it will greatly help to get out and
buggy with some people in your area. I know that we have some members in your area.
Most importantly, make sure you are flying the right kite for the conditions. I have made the mistake of going too big. It wasnt much fun.
What side mount from?... I get in the buggy from downwind. This is just in case the wind drags me a bit, I dont get combed over my buggy.
I keep the kite directly overhead until I feel secure in the buggy, then I bring the kite down in the direction that I want to travel.
What path should the kite be on to get it moving into the power zone?... There are a couple that I like to use, depending on my speed, wind speed,
and how much balls I have at the moment... To start with, sine the kite into and out of the power zone. This basically means just fly the kite towards
zenith, and then back down into the power zone.... then repeat. The ballsy move is the power-loop, make sure that the kite is able to do a complete
loop, and bring the kite all the way around (up, or down) and back onto the tack you were on (careful, this can bring LOTS of power), you will
probably be a few feet downwind
. The loop is also tough on your equipment.
Is there an optimum angle for the kite to be flying to get the most power, or is that just a "feel" thing?... The angle that I feel has the most
power when I am buggying is about 40 degrees from the ground. To tweak a bit more power out of the kite when you are moving, give the brakes a little
tug!
To slow down for turning, do you bring the kite back to 12:00?.... That is one way to do it, just remember to steer upwind. I dont always bring the
kite up to zenith to slow for a turn, but I always do to stop. Besides... turning under full power is quite a bit of fun, albeit that is where all of
my OBE's (out of buggy experiences) have happened... so be careful.
Are turn-arounds always made down wind?... I have some buddies that are working on the upwind turns, but I havent tried them on for size, yet. So,
yes, you can turn upwind, but I dont know how you do it.
All of that said... check out this link, I found it very useful.
http://www.awindofchange.com/lessons/lesson3-2.html