A four wheeled craft would offer more stability and better traction. The problem with trikes is they are more likely to tip over at a 45 degree angle
when turning.
What are the advantages of a three wheeler over a four?
I can think of a few possible ones:
1) Less rolling resistance (although this might nullified especially on soft terrain because there will be less weight on each wheel in a four
wheeler)
2) Simpler/Cheaper. Although I would think some clever engineers could come up with something that could compete with a trike cost wise.
I also wonder why there are not "leaning" trike buggies. It would seem to me to be as simple as simple as attaching the seat frame to the rear axle
with one pivoting connection and securing the side rails to the axle with adjustable length bungees. The bungees would keep you from going all the way
over, and could be tightened for a stiffer ride. This would also make for a cheap, light semi-suspension system.
I have never kite buggied before, but these questions came to mind while researching to get my first buggy.
Thanks for the help : )USA_Eli_A - 19-3-2009 at 09:45 AM
alignment, stability, simplicity, portability. There are many styles, but for me the 3-wheeled suites my need the best.KYTE SLINGER - 19-3-2009 at 10:30 AM
stability......... is highly over ratedacampbell - 19-3-2009 at 10:32 AM
Yup as Eli says.
The wheel/ tire/ bearings assemblies are among the single most expensive components that make up a bug, so all the cleverness in the world will not
get you an relatively inexpensive 4-wheeler. Libre makes a 4-wheel.
Notice how low the center of gravity is on the average bugs, especially the racers. They are generally very stable. They can flip, but usually when
you catch a rim on something and/ or powering up the kite in a direction and position that yanks you over (pilot error). It's called an OBE (out of
buggy experience) and we have all had them.
He has the skill, knowledge and resources to fabricate any kind of buggies, yet they seem to end up as trikes.
Welcome to the forum and I hope you get out on a buggy soon. Where are you located?nailimexam - 19-3-2009 at 10:52 AM
Hi, thanks for the replies. I see what you mean about, the wheels/bearings, it would add a considerable amount of weight too.
Any thoughts on my crazy leaning trike idea?
I have another crazy idea too. What if the trike was set up with two wheels in the front and one in the back, so that it had more resistance against
the forward/side tipping force from the kite and/or from turning?
I live in St. Paul, Minnesota. Any one on the forums live near here that could give me some tips on flying locations etc.?
Thanks.ragden - 19-3-2009 at 10:57 AM
Interesting idea, though I do not think it would work very well.
Couple things to consider:
Steering is from the one front wheel, via foot-pegs around the wheel. I am sure there could be a way to move steering to the back, but it would be
more complicated, and again add weight to your buggy.
I would think that putting the single wheel in the back would make the buggy a bit more unstable. Your center of gravity would be more towards the
back (the single wheel), and if you did get the kite going in the wrong direction, your chances of flipping would be significantly increased (imo).
Just things to think about. I am sure some of the guys making them will have more intelligent answers. acampbell - 19-3-2009 at 11:06 AM
Remember, weight is not a bad thing for a buggy- it helps you hold down more kite. Some riders will install lead weights near each wheel.
Buggies are simple by themselves so any bug you learn in would want to be like the one you end up riding.
If I follow your idea of the bungee correctly, it would be counter-productive. You need to hold back against the side pull in order to transmit that
power to the buggy and wheels, and any lateral springiness there would not help.
Suspension can have a place on a bug, and the purpose is to keep all the wheels on the ground for maximum traction, and not have one wheel lift. So
in that case the suspension should be independent on each wheel.nailimexam - 19-3-2009 at 11:12 AM
The steering could probably be accomplished by simply having foot pegs in front that attached to the pegs on the rear wheel via a rope on each that
ran under the seat.
However, you make a good point about the kite pulling from the other direction. which would happen very often when turning upwind to slow-down/stop.
Any thoughts on the tilting trike idea?
Edit: was posting this before I saw you post Angus. For using the tilting effectively, the bungees would just be there to catch you if you go to far.
It would be like a kite-bike with a safety feature.nailimexam - 19-3-2009 at 11:23 AM
Also, if the bungees were tighter, leaning against the kite would cause the bungees to exert a tipping force on the buggy that is opposite to the
tipping force of the kite and would put more pressure on the upwind wheel. I would think that this would give the buggy better ground contact because
the kite force would tend to lift the upwind wheel off the ground.
Am I missing something?ragden - 19-3-2009 at 11:40 AM
An interesting idea, though I would hope not entirely necessary. Not to say that I would not be intrigued to see you set this up. It just isnt
something that I would invest time in trying to do.
I think you will find once you start riding, that a getup like this will not be that necessary.
The other problem that comes into play when your buggy starts to tip, is that if the kite has any upwards lift, you will come right out of it. Keeping
the buggy on the ground is great, but the kite can still lift you right out. If you invest in a seatbelt, then you run the risk of having the whole
thing land on you if something goes catastrophically wrong.
I think your best bet is to hook up with a local and get out there and try it. acampbell - 19-3-2009 at 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by ragden
I think your best bet is to hook up with a local and get out there and try it.
Absolutely! Nailimexam, I'n not for a New York Minute knocking your creative imagination, but when you experience all the dynamics of the bug first
hand, it will be a real clarifying moment. Then you will know better where to focus that imagination.
Look at a high-end race bug and notice how much engineering and diagonal cross-bracing goes in to keeping that frame as stiff and true as a locomotive
on tracks.nailimexam - 19-3-2009 at 01:53 PM
Sounds Great!
Now, If I could find a local...
Anyone know any Twin Cities Buggyers? : )lad - 19-3-2009 at 02:09 PM
and the best reason is ...... It is easier to get on two wheels when ya only got three! :wee:kitedog - 19-3-2009 at 03:38 PM
That vid of the 5 wheeler is pretty impressive. A 1.2 mtr stunt kite? The wind must be howling!
I'm surprised we haven't seen more of these 5 wheelers.WELDNGOD - 19-3-2009 at 03:48 PM
calling kyte slinger come in kyte slinger.
acampbell - 19-3-2009 at 03:52 PM
Peter Lynn made a two wheel axle truck until recently. I don't see it on the VO site but could ask. Would not be hard to have fabricated.WELDNGOD - 19-3-2009 at 04:17 PM
if you can envision it,it can be made........ the question is ,at what cost. $$$$ I build stuff for a living, and I can tell ya . The more out
there it is the more it will cost. Just because you can't " just go buy one" cha-ching!! $$$$$ PAY THE MAN!! $$$$$KYTE SLINGER - 19-3-2009 at 04:24 PM
on a stock P.L trike the tandem set up is so-so ......you'll have extra wheels right off your flank that loves to grind of chunks skin off your
elbow and gobbles up any slack break lines and you'll lose any type of tight turning ............ but if your able to stretch out the wheel base like
the chopper fricking rock solid or super rooted like a race buggy
nice way to be able to hold down more wing w/o having to add the extra wh8 on the axlesWELDNGOD - 19-3-2009 at 04:35 PM
That is so Bad a$$! The pimp mac daddy of kite buggies fo sho.KYTE SLINGER - 19-3-2009 at 04:36 PM
Oh! and I forgot the tandem set up articulate up & down like suspension and even rotate around the axle on a bushingripsessionkites - 19-3-2009 at 06:13 PM
Most recumbent trikes are two wheels in front, single drive wheel in back. None that I know of have steering on the back wheel. I think rear wheel
would make the steering too sharp making tipping a problem, think fork lift trucks. The steering mechanisms are very expensive with many custom
parts. No amount of engineering will ever make steering two wheels as cheap as steering one wheel.
SUSA_Eli_A - 20-3-2009 at 08:40 AM
I've got a 2-wheel adapter for the hardcore if anyone wants to try it.
Love the pimped buggy of Dave S. CleanWELDNGOD - 20-3-2009 at 01:55 PM
I just realized that I ride a five wheeler too.. That ShortTerm MemoryLoss must be kicking in.heliboy50 - 20-3-2009 at 02:00 PM
Just blame it on the fumes, WG:bigok:Bucky - 26-3-2009 at 02:27 PM
Why 3 wheels?
Answer this: On an uneven surface, why is it that a 3 leg table will be more stable than a 4 leg table?
Why? Because 3 points of contact on a fixed object is the maximum number you can have while still insuring that all points make contact with the
surface. In other words - A 3 leg table will be stable on any surface, while a 4 leg table will wobble unless the surface is perfectly flat AND the
legs are perfectly aligned.
The only way to compensate is to either add suspension or use a sway bar bar assembly (like Libre did) which greatly adds to the complexity and cost
Otherwise a fixed geometry 4 wheeled buggy will actually only truely be gaining traction on 3 of its wheels when on any uneven surface (which is what
we all tend to ride on) so you end up having added complication and cost with no real benifit
In response to the inquiry about making a "2 in front, 1 in back buggy"
Although there would a significant stability improvement by placing the wide part of the triangle towards the front, continuing to use the single
wheel as your steering would be ill advised. Rear wheel steering is INCREDIBLY unstable. Its only used in applications where you have low speed, but
need high manuverability i.e. forklifts. Definately NOT buggies.
A (2F- 1R) three wheeled buggy with front steering (via a linkage assembly) would work, but then again, you run into the problem of added complication
and cost.
A 1F - 2R buggy is most common because its the simplest, most cost efficient design that still works relatively well.
And anyhow, any inherant instability in this design is just considered part of the sport. In much the same way, surfboards are unstable and hard to
balance on, but a perfectly stable board that you can't fall off of, probably isn't that much fun.lad - 26-3-2009 at 03:50 PM
That is the most succinct explanation about 3 vs. 4 wheel design I ever seen.
As a counter point, it seems that the 300 mpg hybrid Aptera car arrived at a 2F-1R arrangement. But this was for lightweight, aerodynamic, front-steering considerations.popeyethewelder - 28-3-2009 at 06:57 AM
The answer to your rear suspension idea via some kind of bungee...is really a no starter as far as I am concerned.
The rear end of a buggy needs to be a rigid as possible, if you have suspension, when you are fully loaded with a power kite, the buggy will lean over
kite side, which is the last thing you need. Front suspension is a different matter, I have tried various types of suspension, some where just a
mountain bike shock pivots on the goose neck, but the problem here is your feet still go up and down with the front wheel. A much better idea is to
use the leading link that I have used on the Dominator and Cheetah buggies, the front wheel rises up and down, but your feet stays still, every beach
using this method is like a billiard table, the ride is very smooth even on a very rippled beach, you just glide over the bumps without even noticing
them.
The perfect buggy for me would have three wheels, believe me four have been tried and tested many many times and they simply dont compete against the
three wheeled buggy for speed and racing.
The best rear suspension buggies out there as far as I am concerned are the Hungarian Buggies, they build their own to suit their very rough terrain
