I'm looking for my first traction kite and don't know wether to get it with handles or a bar, I plan to use it for snow kiting (after a lot of pratcrice on sand flats over the summer).
Should I get handles first then a bar later on or get a bar straight away?
I intend to get a Ozone Samuarai 4m is this a sensible start? I'm
75 kilos (160lbs) and have used friends kites ranging from diddy 2m things to a 6.5m kite that nearly gave me the arms of an Orangoutang.
Any advice on control bars and/or handles would be welcome!

Please allow me to offer my ideas on handles and bars...
Two sciences here: The science of marketing and the science of aerodynamics.
Bars are marketable because they help the consumer think there isn't much to learn and a gimmick will protect them.
Bars limit control - To the length of the bar.
Bars are familiar - To windsurfers and wakeboarders where most new kiteboarders are coming from.

On the water, one goes out overpowered.
Getting the rider up out of the water and onto plane on a board that isn't very bouyant requires a lot of power.
Maintaining that plane doesn't.

Maneuverabilty slows the kite and reduces power, putting the rider down in the water, so the limited steering of a bar is appropriate.
On the water, one wants constant grunt and a stable kite.

The 4-line rigs on bladder kites (sails) steer with the bottom lines (attached to the tips of the bar) and de-power through the top lines that run through the middle of the bar and attach to your harness.
Pushing the bar away lets the back of the sail out, allowing it to flatten in the wind and reduce the power, but the kite keeps flying.
One must wear a harness and be shackled into it for this to work.

Going out over-powered means that occasionally, sometimes on purpose and sometimes not, you get booted into the air.
The water absorbs most of that energy upon re-entry.

These kites are unlike anything we played with as kids, so we have no memory for context. Most percieve there is little or nothing one needs to "learn" about kites.

On land, we can use smaller, faster, more maneuverable ram-air wings (not sails) and by "zooming" the kite (flying it faster) one increases the power. The faster it goes, the faster it can go.

The risk of being booted into the air is much greater when coming down on hard ground. So going out under-pwered is much safer.

The momentary loss of power maneuvering the kite isn't such a big deal when you're riding on bearings. You don't sink. You don't even stop. You might stop accelerating for a moment, and perhaps have to alter your course a bit downwind, but those aren't problems for us.

4-line soft quads are rigged as 2-line steerable kites with two additional lines attached to the trailing edge of the wing and acting as wing-flaps or brakes.
These kites must be steered with the top two lines, so they are attached to the tips of the bar. The brake lines come throught the middle and attach to your harness.
Now, pushing the bar away pulls in the brake lines and the wing stalls and starts dropping back towards the middle of the wind window.
This is a very different situation. Very different.

Handles allow the flyer more control with less risk.
A strap between the tops of the quad handles allow the use of a harness without the inherent risk of shackling in.

Without always using a harness, bars are pointless.
The transition between bars and handles is only a barrier to those who are afraid and haven't tried.
Except one decries the loss of control with the bar.

There are exceptions.
The Peter Lynn TwinSkins and the Ozone Frenzy.
The Frenzy is notable because it is a bridled foil that works on a bar.

On a foil, bridle lines are named the "a" lines (right below the leading edge), the "b" lines (next row down), the "c" lines and the "d" lines (usually the brake lines).
Pushing the bar on a Frenzy unloads the "b", "c", and "d" lines.
The kite keeps flying on the "a" lines, but most of the power can be moderated.

So my suggestion is to fly on land with handles and build great kite skills.
Those skills will translate to other aspects of this game.

Remember: In the marketplace the buzz word is "power".
But in our world, the word is "traction".
Too much power simply breaks your grip.

Helpful?


"I am often wrong, but never in doubt."

Safen Up! Buggy On!

the coreylama

Sublime post, Corey!

Great post Corey.

As for snow kiting, don't worry about handles / bar. Many of the best riders use both (See video at Semnoz.com).

Handles:
Pros
- Kite flies fast (= jumps)
- Safer (just let go of one handle)
- Your arms are great shock absorbers for gusts
Cons
- Using a cord (strop) between your handles to hook in is a little cumbersome, but just as effective as a bar
- No easy release while hooked in and powered up
- Strop limits your safety system (letting go of one handle)


Bar:
Pros
- Easy set-up
- Minimal line tangles
Cons
- Slow kite
- No real quick release (You won't be able to unhook while in the air) (Frenzy -'05 solves this)
- Wrist straps are a mess (Tangles)

IMHO: Handles for anything except the Frenzy '05

Thanks guys.
I also have something to say about wrist leashes or "kite killers".

I don't like 'em.
You aren't letting go, just releasing control.

Here's what one should learn:
1. Full-reverse on the handles. This should stall the wing and stop any forward movement.
2. Holding the bottom of both handles in one hand, reach up and pull both brake lines. This inverts and reverses the kite. Solves 90% of the problems, but not all, so the last thing is:
3. Let go. The kite is now upside-down and backwards so letting go of the handles isn't bad like if the kite were powered-up.

Killers prevent you from letting go without performing 3 seperate acts: Let go of the handles, release one wrist, release the other wrist.

I don't think we will have that kind of time.

Reality?
A couple months ago, out on the playa for the first time this spring, a group of us were just getting back into the groove.
I came close to camp, about 200 feet out, and sky-ed my kite and went into a slow downwind turn.
Immediately I felt a hit against my lines.
My buddy Dave had been following me across the lakebed, without my being aware, and hadn't expected me to sky up in front of him.
His lines hit mine at nearly 90 degrees.
I looked up, saw the situation, and released my handles.
Had I hesitated, I'll wager both our linesets would have melted.
As it happened, my lines popped over his, my kite luffed and sank to the ground, and he flew on.
I walked maybe 30 feet to my handles, shook out the kite, relaunched and was on my way in less than 2 minutes.
A month later, talking to Dave about it, I had to remind him, as the incident had been such a non-event, he'd already forgotten.

Seems to me the killers would have turned that specific event into something perhaps much more dramatic.

I believe in kite skills.
Part of that is knowing what kite to use when and where.
How to rig properly.
When and where to use a harness (not when to wear it, but when to use it. I wear mine all the time but I'm only using it when appropriate)
How and when to let go.

I do not believe in gimmicks.
"Things" the marketing folks want me to believe I can buy, as a way to success, instead of practice.

BTW... Someone asked my what I have in my bag...
PL 5m Quad Peel
Quadrifoil 75 (actually 82 s/f)
Quadrifoil 25
Quadrifoil 2002
SkyTiger 26
Hi-Tiger 22
Hi-Tiger 30
Flexi Zip-Zap
NPW (20 s/f custom)
NPW (35 s/f custom)
Bullet 1.5
Bullet 2.5
Samurai 3.0
Viper 4.0
Blade 4.0
Rebble 5.0
Firebee 7.0
All On Handles!


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"I am often wrong, but never in doubt."

the coreylama

Oh... Another thing, or two.

Please let us remember the difference between starting out and what we've grown into.
Gear we find most useful now might not be such in the hands of a novice.
"Advanced" technology can enhance the experienced user and at the same time hide from the novice some very critical insights for future understanding.
Part of what makes success is the process.
Offering "short-cuts" to beginners isn't always a help.

While many experienced flyers may be adept at both handles and bars, that shouldn't be the message we always put out.

Please remember the difference also between entry-level kite flyers and entry-level power kite flyers.

Someone without basic sport kite experience probably isn't going to be well served by buying a 4.5m quad as their first kite.

It's not the steering one needs to learn, but the context we fly in.
What makes an acceptable location?
What specific winds are useful?
Set-up and break-down convenience.
How the game works.

If you like, please refer folks to this thread or print it out even and share it around. I'm hoping to get more information out to the increasing numbers of folks getting interested in this game.

A counter-point to the marketing hype.

Oh... "letting go of one handle..." WHAT?
We'll discuss this later.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"I am often wrong, but never in doubt."

the coreylama

Thanks guys, happy kiting!

Hey Guys,
I am very glad I just read this thread, I am that "New Guy" you refer to in the posts. I am also in the market for my first power/traction kite, well not my first (I did just return the Ozone Imp becasue I had over estimated it's power), so I do have a tiny bit of experience, lol. I had called my local chain sports store (EMS) and the guy there was telling me how much better, safer, easier to use, and stronger the bar is over handle for a new kiter (We were specifically discussing the Ozone Samuri (2m and 3m Sizes). Because I am not the knowledgable I just assumed he was right but now I am really rethinking my decision. This is espcially true because I want to stick with the sport for some time and would rather learn the right way now, insted of take the easy road and have it limit my skill in the future. Great Post, thank you!

The real reason I wanted to post was to discuss proper size. I realize the best possible situation is to have multiple kites for specific wind conditions but since I am just starting out I don't really have the funds to do that. With that said and with me being a novice power/traction kiter what are your thoughts on the Ozone Samuri 2m or 3m? I must say I am hesitant to get the 3m because I don't know if it will be to much, on the other hand I am worried that if I get the 2m I will be disapointed and will wish I got the 3m insted.

This is a great forum and I appreciate all your help guys, it is nice to have a resource like this available to new kiters who are intersted in the sport.

Roger,
I would go with the 3. Its really not that big, and if you start in light winds you'll figure it out safely. I would definitely go for handles on your fist foil as they will teach you many of the basics of quad line flying. All of my quads are on handles except for my latest, an Ozone Frenzy 05 7 meter and I bought it specifically for kite ATB ( land boarding ). I've been flying quads avidly for 15 years and feel the bar system included with that kite has some advantages for the landboard.

Good luck!
Dave

Im new to this site so go easy....

I agree that handles are superior to bars unless the kite is bar specific.

You just cant get enough rate of turn from a bar as the maximum amount of line you can move is the length of the bar.

Roger_D25 how much do you weigh? I find the imp 2m does generate a fair degree of pull at the bottom of the wind window however there are ways around this of course. I find the Imp is a great trainer and an ausome starting point. Its the one i use when the local park is full of spectators that want a go.

The Sam is an ausome kite but only if you know how to fly. The 5m can pull very hard in certain wind strengths however the ability to depower the kite is there so I guess if the imp is too outa control maybe the Sam would work. I just get the feeling that if you have hastle with the imp and controlling the power you may be getting in over your head with the Sam.

This is all just speculative of course as I have never seen you fly.

Cheers.

Hope this is some help to you Roger :
I weigh 75 kilos (approx 160lbs) and bought the Sam 4m (handles) as my first kite (though I'd used other peoples kites) and have been absolutely delighted. Its great in winds of next to nothing (leaves and v. small branches moving) and dosen't become a beast untill about 15kph. Having said that I'd probably have been more or less equally happy with a 3m might need a little more wind but could also be used in slightly higher winds. As for build quality etc I have no complaints.
Also I think an important consideration is how many kites you plan to get and what range of winds you want to cover, if you want a very comprehesive collection then starting with a smallish kite could be a good start - you could then progress upwards without having to come back for the small kite for the big winds....