Okay. So today I learned that in marginal, sketchy winds 20m lines on a 15m Phantom aren't exactly what the doctor ordered. The kite was wicked responsive but wouldn't sit in the power long enough to have much effect.

Which leads to the question. I bought the lines with the intent of making a new set comprised of 20m mains, and 10, 5 and 5m extensions with the ultimate goal to stack the arcs but to use as full time flying lines as well. Thing is the lines (Climax) are sleeved and tied, not stitched and I'm worried that the gnurly nobs formed by the knots at the extension joint will be too prone to catching, snagging and ruining a launch.

Anyone know if these lines can instead be sleeved and sewn and where one can find the tutorial on doing so? I'd keep the kite and bar ends of the lines as tied loops for adjustment purposes but really am concerned about the midline knots.

If you put the knots on the kite end then you shouldnt have any problem with them snagging.

If you want to remove the knots and sew and if you are ok with sewing then you can make a jig for yourself. Just notch out a piece of heavy duty construction paper or cardboard the same thickness of your lines and sleeving. Add on the sleeving or just untie the knots and re-use the sleeving that is there - insert the line into the cardboard cutout so it holds it in place and then slide that entire cutout into your sewing machine. run a heavy zig-zag stitch over with some poly or nylon line and your good to go.

If you want to get really fancy, overlay your line end cutout with another piece that is cut out to fit your foot on your machine perfectly, that way it holds the pattern/die exactly and makes it much easier to sew.

If this is not clear then I can probably get a picture for you.

Hope that helps

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Originally posted by macboy Okay. So today I learned that in marginal, sketchy winds 20m lines on a 15m Phantom aren't exactly what the doctor ordered. The kite was wicked responsive but wouldn't sit in the power long enough to have much effect. Which leads to the question. I bought the lines with the intent of making a new set comprised of 20m mains, and 10, 5 and 5m extensions with the ultimate goal to stack the arcs but to use as full time flying lines as well. Thing is the lines (Climax) are sleeved and tied, not stitched and I'm worried that the gnurly nobs formed by the knots at the extension joint will be too prone to catching, snagging and ruining a launch. Anyone know if these lines can instead be sleeved and sewn and where one can find the tutorial on doing so? I'd keep the kite and bar ends of the lines as tied loops for adjustment purposes but really am concerned about the midline knots.

since there is already sleeving on it ... slide the sleeving down to the desired lenght, and just make an overhand knot in the center and than loop it together. i will get pics.

you can also keep the line straight, tie a knot at the end of the sleeving, but also tie a knot at the end tip of the flying line.

yes, you can sew the sleeving together if you'd like. TDMC96 has Climax sets that are sewn sleeving. (Ken #2, take a pic for me)

where ever you cut the line, its good to light the ends, gives it a cleaner look.

i run 27m -30m lines on everything arc.

20m lines just not usable for a big kite , i've had good luck with tubes but not arcs on short set ups

i prefer sleeved and knotted and have 20/10m ext. setup with knots and never a problem. actually my land set up is perm. ext with sleeve/ knots lines . zero problem.

short set ups are a fun "novelty" but would never look for a power choice in that direction esp. for an arc. the cell compression and distortion in the LE really seems wrong. the timing flow is quirky and end up bang up good junk.

Thanks guys. Interesting to know you've been trouble free Phree - I was really worried it was a disaster waiting to happen. I assume you run the 20m set off the bar and the 10m set at the kite so there are no knots to bung up the sliding ring for the safety?

Really though, is the knot/stitching mostly cosmetic, partially structural anyway? I mean, if you just doubled over a line and made a larkshead it'd hold (I know this because the Phantom is being held up to melt / dry right now this way). I don't mean to say I'd fly that way but it gives me comfort thinking that the stitching isn't what will be the difference between saving my life or not as it's just to keep things tidy and locked in.

Given our lully, dirty winds I think I'll opt for the stitching. I think I recall seeing a post somewhere on here with photos of the sewing jig.

longer on the bar end for the slide, but the ring is on a knotted sleeve ANYWAY,so it passes w/o hindrance everytime.

the sand the abrasion all of ...i just like dacron sleeving.

after all the stitched/ heat shrinky dink loops from the factory start to pop off(and they will) i'll redress the whole set to a new length. all tidy , matched knots blah, blah blah...

thats what happens to busted sets, re-serviced into ext. /back up /novelty short, mostly for land. i try to keep my water set fresh and sand free. the land sets just get abused by the nature of the beach. in the surf and violent water launches is where i usually discover failed lines, thankfully close, but i knew! it was going to happen.

waves and surf , the SHOCK LOAD everytime. not a jump load. but slack to shock load.

trim strap slide has to be large enough to allow for pass thru!

i never had issues with a knot in my sleeving. why are some sleeved and some sewn I have no idea. sewn seems to have a cleaner look but not every brand sew the sleeving to the end and leave a tip also.

with dyneema or spectra if they arent for extensions you could spice it back into itself by a foot and have no sleeving at all. when you hit NABX ill show you Faster Arie's flying lines, no sleeving / no knots.

W-W-W-Whaaa.....?

Kidding. I've seen it done...actually I think the Flysurfer lines are that way - braided back into themselves to form the loops so it makes sense but isn't that PILE of finicky work?

Either way, looking forward to learning. That's awesome.

Look up the fishing knot called a blood knot, will do the job no problem. IMHO

I happen to have a handy dandy knot app on the iPhone and sure enough....looks like a gooder but still a little bit bulky for this application. I'll hold tight for some splicing/braiding enlightenment. I can make some sleeved extensions for the time being (have a third set of 20m lines for making a "good" set with).

I've spliced loops in 3/16 amsteel- it isn't really that hard but it takes some practice to make it look good. Heat shrink over the knots. The U-turn Butan has that in the bridle and it looks/works fine.

Update. Added 7m extensions, sleeved and knotted as per the factory Climax knots and have to say, while there's not one thing wrong with the lines - quite like them actually, those knots at the 7m mark from the kite really tend to be snaggy. I think I'll try the stitching and see how I feel about that but might send the 20m sets to the fixed bridles and order a 25m set for delivery to the Playa (hint hint Rip ; )

Will still need the extension sets I made up (10, 7 and 3) for varied uses like stacking kites and parking lot flying.

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Originally posted by macboy I think I'll try the stitching and see how I feel about that but might send the 20m sets to the fixed bridles and order a 25m set for delivery to the Playa (hint hint Rip ; )

sorry, im so behind on getting pics ... i need to stop working and take pics and/or fly a kite.

you have to catch me first, look for the little asian guy in the pink skirt. see you at NABX.