So what is the right (or the fastest way) to get from point A to point B while going directly downwind in a buggy?

You would need to tack back and forth downwind, and if you're real good tack back upwind.

Another way of saying it is to swing the kite to the right as you cut your buggy to the left, then turn the kite back to the left while you oppose it by turning to the right. That keeps line tension all the time if you time it right and don't let your speed get faster than you can maintain line tension. You can do the much less revered Fred Flintstone technique, but expect ribbing from anyone around you that knows better! :P

At Nabx we should have a competition for this; release a balloon (organic, decomposable one toward a finish line and see who can out run the balloon the most. Or something like that.

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Originally posted by luv2glyd So what is the right (or the fastest way) to get from point A to point B while going directly downwind in a buggy?

You don't. Not for more than a moment. Then you run over your lines, wrap them around an axle, and next comes the wrenches or worse, a knife. I've seen it plenty and it is never good.

Going downwind is trickier than upwind, which is counter-intuitive to many.

Bobby and Weldngod are right; you have to tack (jibe). Start on a beam reach to build speed and apparent wind, then the faster you go, the more you can fall off to a downwind broad reach. You will reach a point where one degree too far off and the the kite will fall beside you. If you have a small fast kite you can work it hard by flying it backwards behind you then diving it down in front, but only to a point.

the fastest way to get downwind is a suicide jibe. racers use this technic when doing a downwind leg, but you cant maintain it for super long legs. there was one section of the course at Worldcup which was perfect for it.

PTW posted up videos before and you can search them out and in one my LONG vids has rides doing them.
see here: http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder?g=51041021

in simple terms you want to get up to full speed and loop the kite and bring it over "like a paraglider" and drift yourself downwind, remember to release the brakes (or OBE). another way so to get to speed and send it up high quickly as you begin to coast downwind.
when you feel the pressure of the kite release its time to turn out and regain pressure.

the right way would be to jibe / gybe

Well....I have to say, the quickest way to go from point A to point B directly down wind.....is directly down wind (once you have built your speed up), I cannot do it, but most top racers can, (you're right Rips in saying a suicide gybe would get the speed up to start with) I was on a beach in South Wales, the wind was cross shore about 25-30mph....another guy and myself tacked about 3 miles or so up wind, then he said "race you back".....of course, I did what you guy mentioned above, and zig zagged across the beach down wind.....my mate also did this a couple of times, then when I looked across, there was my mate hurtling directly down wind, he was actually going faster than the wind....in the same direction, amazing...how did he do this? well he was continually looping the kite, forwards then backwards all the time, it was fantastic to watch, I am not kidding when I say I got back to him about 10-15 minutes later, I got out of the buggy and just shook his hand, "How the hell did you just do that?" he said if you cannot do this in racing you will never win, and I believed that, bearing in mind he gained about 3 miles on me in a few short minutes for him....

Snowman Taff, Pembrey South Wales






This was actually the first day for me back on fixed bridles, a friend had lent me his 2m rage, and the lines were a right mess.....any way, this is what happened, it also gives you an idea of what the wind was like that day

PTW, Belly Scud

and SMT and me racing from the shore to the dunes hitting 50mph Here it was quite a surreal experience, the beach was moving one way, we were moving another....nothing was still

Nice moves there Carl. I guess who ever is willing to hit the dunes win the inbound race. Sounds like us when we were kids on our bikes!!

OK, I've done the jybing downwind myself like you guys mentioned - buggy one way, kite the other. Was just wandering if there's another way similar to what you see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPvGTjmn9y0&feature=relat...

more details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHsXcHoJu-A


Carl, can you elaborate more on what your friend was doing? When you say:

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well he was continually looping the kite, forwards then backwards all the time

what what was the exact trajectory of the kite? what do you mean by "backwards"?

When your driving downtime instead of jibing you can also loop the kite which keeps pressure in the foil. This can also be done by trimming your brake tension with your handles slowing down your kite so it doesn't shot to the edge of the wind window. It's fine control between slowing the kite down to stalling it. Normally this is why we hold handles under the leader lines.

There is a Tutorial I had on my blog website.

Yes. Looping the kite implies that you are going downwind (point A to point B directly donwwind) slower than the wind, though, doesn't it? In other words, in order to have any pressure in the lines you at least have to have 2 to 3 mph of wind in your back so that the kite does not fall.

How is it possible to get from point A to point B (B directly downwind of A) faster than the wind itself, like popeyethewelder described?

Because the kite is flying through the local air faster than the speed of the local true wind. This is called "apparent wind". You are flying the crap out of the kite and it "feels" more wind on its surface than standing still in the breeze.

Going downwind, the forces and apparent wind are more complicated, but if you start out on this kind of reach across the wind it is easier to understand...

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/BetterBuggyBasics.html#10

Then it is easier to work out in your head what is going on when going downwind. I make the case that you cannot normally go straight downwind- that sooner or later you reach a limit of what you can do with the kite and apparent wind - and this is still true with most pilots and most kites, but Pops and Ricardo are making the point that it CAN be done with the right kite and the right skilled race pilot flying it like they stole it. I'm sure it can be done when everything is just right.

Man, so much what I wanted to say and couldn't find the words! AC comes through again! I'm still groovin' on that point that comes when you've just got your fingertips on the handles, and you flowin' along at the same speed as the kite, like weightless almost!

Another way to explain...

An engineering paper once suggested that you can measure the Lift to Drag Ratio, or L/D of a kite by knowing the local true wind speed and then measuring the maximum speed of the kite through the window.

The Peter Lynn designers said in a technical article about the Reactor buggy kites that the max L/D achievable with modern kites was somewhere around 6.

This would suggest in the above exercise that the kite could achieve 30 mph through the window with 5 mph at your back. Of course you would get yarded!

Theoretical, but the point is made I hope.

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Originally posted by luv2glyd Carl, can you elaborate more on what your friend was doing? When you say: Quote: well he was continually looping the kite, forwards then backwards all the time what what was the exact trajectory of the kite? what do you mean by "backwards"?

Ok, I emailed my mate mentioning that I was talking about his down wind run, and asked if he could explain it for you guys, here's his reply

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Hi mate …nice to hear from you boyo. Not flown at all this year with work and family grrrrrrrr…I’ll be back though lol You can’t go straight downwind as such as the kite will luff, but you can get very close to it with practice. It’s not easy to explain lol…it’s more a feel for the pressure in the kite than anything else. Head downwind as fast as you can at the start and the kite will power up , almost like staying in the same piece of wind if that makes any sense, you stay in that gust for as long as you can, sometimes that gust in the kite can last for hundreds of yards direct downwind. But once you get the speed and start to overtake the wind you turn very small amount with buggy to keep the pressure on kite but at the same time you are looping the kite back and forth in front of you, so if I steer slightly to the right to keep pressure I will loop kite as far left as I can then once I am getting a small drop in pressure on kite I loop it back to the right , downturning for max speed, at the same time I will keep tension on the kite by “small” steer with buggy in the opposite direction. So you think I am going downwind direct but I am making hundreds of small turns with buggy and big turns with the kite. You almost always have to loop the kite downturning to keep the pressure on or it will luff. As you have seen Carl if you can get it right you go very fast almost direct downwind, I once raced Jon Hopewell and he caught a gust with his kite and rode it for over 2 miles almost direct downwind and overtook almost the entire fleet that were gybing down the course, the fleet made maybe 10 turns Jon made none. Practice it but be careful on the edge of the window as you need to over fly the kite as far as u will risk once you start having to turn, take it gentle and practice just for 100 yds or so then make it longer as you get the feel for the kites needs for pressure. Sorry if this is a babbling mess mate, let me know if you need any further NON clarification lol See you on a beach in 2011 for sure J

I was on the beach today infact, it was a cross onshore....25-30mph SSE, I need an east for good runs up and down the beach. I was remembering our conversation about going down wind, and thought I would give it a bash.....I tacked up wind for a mile or so until I got bored, I then went for the down wind run....I kept looping the kite to gain speed, all was going well, as well as looping forward, and back looping I was aggressively sign waving the kite......and after about 1/2 mile.....I was in the zone, the zone of nothingness, although the wind wind blowing up to 30mph, I could not hear or feel the wind, it was like I was flying through space...amazing feeling, I have to say it was not directly down wind, but as down wind as I could possibly get it...I tried to capture it on video, but only caught the odd glimpse of the kite as I was whipping it around.

I will post it later when its uploaded

It was a fun day and I was the only kiter/buggier there. I was flying the new Cooper 2.1m VR for the first time...and I loved it

haha!.... I think I get it finally. The point of the very slight turn to the right is to produce a very small amount of apparant sidways wind on the kite from the right, just enough to have the kite stay up in the air with lines tensioned, while still running very very close to downwind with about the same speed as the wind. The sideways move also causes you to slow down just a bit compared to the speed of the wind.
Will have to try it out next time I'm out! Thanks for getting the explanation from your friend.

I will have to try this tomorrow. Realy cool info.

here we are


Cross Shore Wind, Down Wind Running

Nice vid, liked the beginning.