Keepers of the PKF knowledge-

I'm sure I'm like all newcomers in that:

(1) while flying my trainer kite I salivate over larger depowers
(2) I want to pay $10 for the amazing do-all kite that will serve as my entire quiver
(3) I want someone to tell me exactly what to buy so that I don't actually have to think

I am interested in landboarding/jumping, weigh about 200lbs, and will be spending most of my time for now on pavement - the safest of all surfaces. There is a very real possibility of my getting on snow this winter. I'm interested in water as well, but think it's a lower likelihood for now so I'm not super focused on getting something that works in water.

My normal wind range is about 10-20mph (if someone here is a Floyd Bennett Field veteran and begs to differ, please speak up).

I'm wondering what kites I should be looking at / thinking about for my first depower and in what size. Based on my reading on the web, my current list (looking for used) includes Charger, Synergy, Montana (not up on the numbers for the M), Neo (2?). The Ozone Access also seems like an option but I haven't seen as much about that. At my weight and wind it seems like I'd be in the 15m range (larger?) for the twinskins and 11-12 for the Neo and Montana but I'd love the feedback if it sounds like I'll kill myself that way. If anyone thinks there are other kites I should be thinking about as well I'd love to know that too. Also, what is a reasonable price range for something that's in decent condition?

Regrettably I don't think I'll have a lot of opportunity to try kites out locally, but I'm going to try to make it up to Tug Hill and/or Kitestorm. My thought is (correct me if I'm wrong here) that any of the above kites would serve me well (a 4th newcomer trait - don't want to wait and try - just want to buy now!). I think I'm more focused on getting something that works at a good price than on doing a ton of testing etc to get the very "best" kite for me. Please feel free to let me know if this is stupid.

Also a buying question. Is the used kite market like the used motorcycle market, where fall is a great time to buy vs spring or are more people generally turning their quivers over in the spring?

Thanks for the thoughts and apologies for the large number of questions.

Its hard to say when the best time to buy a kite is... but keep an eye on the kite manufacturers, as when they release a new kite model, people tend to upgrade within the first few months and its always a good time to buy as the forums are full of sales.

I'm a bit bigger than you (~250lbs, 5'10") and the 13-16m range suits me good. My Peter Lynn's are my pride and joy, as they're easy to fly, have great float and lift, and are all around good kites. My suggestion for you is to start with a trusted favorite like a Venom or VenomII before stepping to the power and speed of the Synergy/Charger line.

I also have a Flysurfer Psycho4 15m that creates tremendous lift and float, but its pretty scary, so I wouldn't get a Flysurfer until you're comfortable flying depower.

I'd say you're doing a good job being cautious but I can tell you have a desire to learn. It may be worth taking a weekend to go up to Upstate NY, CT or down to DC area and meet some fellow kiters.

Good luck on your search and welcome to the addiction!

//Edit//
I usually fly in 14-22mph winds, 16-18mph being the ideal wind range for most of my kites. 22-25mph is usually the top and sometimes I can fly in 10-14mph but it usually isn't as fun!

InvertedForce - Thanks so much. I haven't read much about the Venoms. I'll take a look. Definitely not looking for an expert type kite for the first depower...

Well, the Venoms are a great all around kite, especially for beginners in depower. It was my first depower kite and I felt like it did me a lot of good. Look around in people's signatures. They hold on to them cause they're good kites, very trustworthy and they know how they'll respond in certain wind conditions.

Keep your eyes open for Venom or Venom II kites (with bar/lines RTF) as they're a great first choice for stepping to the d'Arc side The VenomII 13m is a cherry kite, they're usually hard to find as people have a hard time letting them go!

There are locals up your way. Cheezycheese(Marc) is from up there I know he flies at F/B field. I am not sure how long a drive it is for him, but he had a meet there a little while back. I would seriously consider finding someone to show you the ropes and maybe give you a lesson on how to fly a depower before you go out and buy one. So much could go wrong. I would hate for you to get frustrated and just have one big pile of kite fabric on the ground and not be able to fly it, or have it go up and you not be ready and have even worse happen.

Not trying to shoot you down, just trying to keep any unforeseen accidents from happening! Do you have any safety gear at all?

For those winds and overall ease of use, I would recommend the Montana and shift you down to the 9.5m for those winds for your first depower. It is easy to setup, awesome to fly and there is a new model that could ship any day, the Montana VI. The arcs are fantastic as well, but the Montana would be a better first depower IMHO since it is so straightforward to setup and fly. Everything is included from the MFR as well. With a new model coming out, you could find closeouts on new ones at a discount, used ones from people upgrading, or get the latest and greatest when dealers get them. That kite has a very wide wind range and will give you better power in the lower winds than all but the biggest of arcs.

O.k. I read some of your other post and see that you do have a little time on your kite. Bob is right about the Montana, really nice kite, good for what you are looking for! I would still have some company when you fly it for the first time!

I've got a couple of Montana's and I like them a lot for the wind I get, I use them mostly for snowkiting. I have the older generation ones and they're still great kites, I've flown the more recent generations and they're even better.

Where are you from, sounds like NY somewhere. I'm in Albany, and there's an active snowkiting group up this way, especially if you head west of Albany...

Well, I was at this springs get together at Floyd Bennett and personally I would suggest going one or two kite sizes smaller on pavement. I agree with Bob that something along the lines of the 9.5 montana would be a great size to go with for your size presuming your on the beach/grass. The pavement at Floyd Bennett is not forgiving of mistakes and it's very fast. When we were there this spring the winds were around 15-18 on the second day and Paul(doublespeed360) was on a 4m ozone access doing 40mph runs. The rest of us were on small FB's. Pavement has little resistance and large kites aren't really necessary. I don't know if Floyd is going to be your main spot to fly but if it is then you can easily drop a size or two.

Hope to see you at the next get together at Floyd

I'll go with your title to this thread, if you take a Montana 9.5 onto the pavement in it's wind range without a couple years experience flying and riding you will get hurt. A 3 meter kite will spank you on pavement in the middle of it's range. Just to big of a jump in kite size IMO.

I think the statement Pavement is the safest to run on means you have never fallen off a bike on the road. If you are going to ATB on pavement you would be far better off spending your money on protective gear like helmet bodyarmor, knee & elbo pads. A few hundred bucks on this will be way less then the recovery time spent from roadrash!:dunno:
Best of luck with your selection of a kite and just follow all the safety rules.

Guys-

Thanks for the feedback. It's so nice to have access to everyone's experience and I appreciate the willingness to share.

Update on me: Had an AWESOME (for me) session at the airstrip today. Winds 15-20 and (according to the weather report) gusting to 30, which made the Hydra 300 feel like it was generating a lot of power. It seemed like I couldn't really hold speed on the ATB without working the kite a bunch, but I was able to get going fast enough on the pavement to realize that a crash at that speed would be pretty painful. What amazing fun - especially doing a power stroke and feeling the board surge down the runway. Need to work on the transitions and generating consistent pressure. Tried to take a movie but my camera batteries don't seem to hold a charge anymore.

Rich - appreciate the input and completely agree on preventing accidents. Today I was out with helmet, wrist guards and knee and elbow pads, gloves and long pants and sleeves. When I visit my parents for Thanksgiving next week, I'll pick up my armored mesh motorcycle jacket and a pair of spandex (whoop whoop) armored pants. I'd like to add a motocross style helmet but for now I have a regular one. Hear you on flying with someone else to start with. May be able to do that this winter in the snow.

Bob - I've been looking at the Montana and didn't realize that the overall setup launch/land would be easier than an arc. Good to know. Will keep an eye out. Any view on what the wind range of a Montana 7 would be for me in the snow/grass?

Ben - I'm in new york city. Definitely want to make it up for some snowkiting this season. Was thinking Tug Hill, but if you have a good place that's closer, I'm game

kteguru - Good point - Not sure how fast I was going but it felt fast (and I've been snowboarding for years). I didn't feel like I needed a lot more speed. That may change but I'm also interested in learning to jump, which I'm reading is safer on larger kites (in lower winds…). Maybe bottom line is I stick with the hydra for now unless winds are low, and think about a larger depower for snow / grass / lower winds. It seems like the hydra isn't that great at flying at the edge of the window - although this may be something I'm doing - any thoughts on a kite that's small enough to be reasonable on pavement but large enough to start to jump on? Also yes can't wait for the next get together at the airstrip.

Roc - was kidding on that comment about the pavement. I've had some unpleasant road rash (front bicycle tire exploded going down a hill at speed - 10 feet or so of just me and the pavement - painful but at least I had a helmet) and not looking to repeat it. For now though FBF is my overall best spot. I'm lucky that I have a bunch of protective gear already so I don't have to make the investment.

So what I take away is that the Montana 9.5 is a great beginner depower, but is too much power for a newbie on pavement in upper teens winds. Is there something I should think about that's big enough to start jumping but also not an accident waiting to happen on the pavement? Maybe a Montana 7 but would that be too small for the snow? My planned next step is to get a harness and add a chicken loop so I can practice flying hooked in on the hydra, although I was considering the Hydra depower mod as well. Seems like people are pretty split on the board between "save your money for the next kite" and "great way to learn depower without strapping into a big kite"

I'd love to hear more of people's thoughts.

Quote:

So what I take away is that the Montana 9.5 is a great beginner depower, but is too much power for a newbie on pavement in upper teens winds. Is there something I should think about that's big enough to start jumping but also not an accident waiting to happen on the pavement? Maybe a Montana 7 but would that be too small for the snow? My planned next step is to get a harness and add a chicken loop so I can practice flying hooked in on the hydra, although I was considering the Hydra depower mod as well. Seems like people are pretty split on the board between "save your money for the next kite" and "great way to learn depower without strapping into a big kite"

A harness and loop for your hydra is a good next step. There is a reason why everyone who's been kiting a while has sizes to cover all usable wind ranges and surfaces. Snow has a ton of drag,,,,a 9.5 montana in the high teens can be perfectly reasonable in those conditions. On the other hand if you jump on your landboard at Floyd in the high teens with a 9.5 montana I'm sure it will end very badly. High drag surfaces require more power than low drag ones.

If you were in 20-30 mph winds with your hydra it's likely you were going downwind. If you were holding an efficient line you would have been moving along in the low 40's easily which is unlikely. The pavement at Floyd is old with the aggregate showing through making it very grippy. A landboard won't slide at all on that surface making it difficult to maintain control of the board even at more resonable speeds. It's just my opinion but if you plan on using Floyd a lot then I'd stick with your hydra for a while till you master board and kite control, then move on to some depowers later. If you look on Angus's site (coastalwindsports.com) he's got a wealth of information/tutorials to get you up to speed quickly on understandling the wind and buggy/board control. If you see low 20's gusting to 30's frequently in your area then the 9.5 as a next kite is probably a bad idea. I don't want to dissuade you from buying one but bear in mind that using the right kite in the right wind is imperative. In another thread you may have noticed that CJ, a beginning landboarder got lofted by a kite too large for the conditions he was flying in and ended up in the hospital with serious damage to his back.

Of course if money isn't an issue then you could always get a 5,7, and 9.5m depwer and cover your wind ranges a bit better. That being said,,,, nothing replaces making good choices regarding wind speed and kite size,,,,and that changes depending on the surface your riding on. Floyd is a small kite kind of place unless the winds are extremely low.

Hope that helps

Quote:

Originally posted by Statistic ... My planned next step is to get a harness and add a chicken loop so I can practice flying hooked in on the hydra, although I was considering the Hydra depower mod as well. Seems like people are pretty split on the board between "save your money for the next kite" and "great way to learn depower without strapping into a big kite" I'd love to hear more of people's thoughts.

I like my hydra depower but I mainly purchased it for my son to learn depower. I use it as a depower trainer for bigger people too when the winds are right for it. I have buggied with it in high winds a couple of weeks ago and in grass it takes work to get the power I need but on hardpack and asphalt it would probably be fine in lower winds. IMO buggying takes less wind than landboarding. Alot depends on your money situation. If you have the money to depower it but not the money to get a bigger kite then??? Just realize you will lose a little power with the mod. but gain some flexibiliy with conditions

Guru thanks a lot - hear you loud and clear on the idea that pavement is a bit of a different animal (the read through is, obviously that you don't start jumping on pavement…makes sense).

Sounds like I'm on the hydra for now. Assuming that depower is the direction I'll be going eventually: If I wanted to get started on learning depower, is there a small one that would make sense for landboarding on pavement, or is there really no point to a depower in that situation and I should be on the hydra or another small FB? If so, how would the power compare to my hydra 300?


On the depower hydra - looked at the pic on the website but couldn't tell: Is there a trim strap or depower only with the bar? Anyone have a view on how significant the depower is?

If the winds are up at Floyd it's definately nice to have depower. Those of us on FB were scrubbing aggressively to control speed (Dan and I were anyway) and all you could smell was burnt rubber in the air . Paul was on an 4m Ozone Access and he still had tires at the end of 5 hrs unlike Dan and I. Using board/buggy control to adjust for wind conditions/speed is less of an option on the tarmac at Floyd. Having depower definately makes it a lot easier to ride floyd when the wind is up. Perhaps something along the lines of a 6m Access? Not overkill at Floyd and can still be a great higher wind machine when your out in the snow this winter. Just a thought.

Perhaps best case scenario would be to try and make Tug Hill or Kitestorm that way you can try out some of the Ozone, Peter Lynn, and HQ kites and decide which will suit you best to start building your quiver.

Hope that helps.