I feel like I’ve got an OK quiver of FB’s to buggy with. Serviceable, but kind of cobbled together with kites picked up here and there.
Now I want to upgrade to depower, and I want to have more of a plan. I'd definitely like to get all your helpful advice on how to build a buggy engine depower quiver.
Budget-wise, I would need to keep it to two kites, is this possible? I’ll look at new or used, and I’m open to everything, FS, Neo, TS, whatever.
I weigh 215 and fly both inland and on beaches.
Am I better off waiting for the Matrixx or dare, I say it, the Phantom II, to come out? Either to get one of those, or to take advantage of the used market that will open up as others upgrade to the new stuff.

I think ragden uses primarily his two outlaws, I think 8M and 12M, but he also has the 15m Speed(I think it is) for the light wind days. He also has a hooj set if ya know what I mean!:bigok: He doesn't sit around much at the bash's I've been to.

The Matrixx and Phantom II are definitely worth the wait... if you can afford it. New kites are always expensive. Personally, I desperately want to get my hands on a 15m Matrixx. But, we'll have to wait and see about pricing.

Just make sure you get two kite sizes whose wind ranges overlap slightly, but cover all of the wind you will be facing, e.g. a PL Charger quiver of 10m/15m would be good. That's just an example, because Chargers are a bit expensive.

Just keep checking the for sale section of the forum. Great stuff pops up all the time

Remember, the Matrix is supposedly a closed cell Montana. The montana is a fantastic buggy kite, and you don't need the closed cells. You could get 2 sizes of Montana right now and never regret it. If you want to tone it down a tad, you could step in to 2 Apexes. They are not as high strung with turning speed but don't give up much in performance. Question is, do you want to wait for release/availability, or do you want them for spring buggying?

It took me a while to sort out what series of kites to assemble.
Considering , skill level, wind conditions and speeds , and budget the Apex kites looked really good. My skills are good but in no way match what other guys are doing with higher performace kites. Winds in central NY are always gusty and I like higher winds , I've flown the 5m in 20 gusting to 30 and the 7.5m in only slightly less violent winds.
The prices on Apex ll could not be beat and now that the lll is out you can pick up 3 brand new kites for what you would pay for a big used FS.
On a light wind day we all know whats out there flying and I'm guessing by some one with light wind skills.
Good luck

If I could only keep one kite it would be the 5m Apex II. Not the most exciting or the fastest but very stable and I can use it from about 12 knots to 22 or maybe a tad more. My 7.5 gets a lot of use also but it's really too close to the 5m in wind range. So I would go for a 5/10 combo in the Apex. Or maybe a 4/8m in the Access XT. I would have to fly the Frenzy's a bit more to make a decision on them - I've only flown the 9m and didn't like the huge sideways pull going upwind. Manta's aren't really a light wind kite and need a lot of work - still a very nice kite though with heaps of depower. Haven't had a crack at the Apex III yet, but I'm told it turns faster with a bit more depower than the II.

What some forget is that the Montanas are just as stable as the Apex but faster. You can trade the great lift in for speed and that improves upwind work. Don't get me wrong, the Apex is a great easy kite but the Montanas really deliver. The "intermediate-expert" label intimidates some, which is a shame because at HQ Demos Days and JIBE we have frequently put Montanas in the hands of first time de-power riders with no troubles. There will be Montanas to try at JIBE for sure!

Thanks for help guys, need it bad.

@ John, What speeds have you hit with the 5m apex? I'm a little worried that a smaller kite wouldn't get my fatbutt moving.

@ Angus and BB, What Montana combo, 7 and 12.5? Just missed on bigben's 7m.

Also taking a good look at the arcs in the For Sale section.

And Frathouse just sold his Neo today. Damn, gotta be quicker!

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@ John, What speeds have you hit with the 5m apex? I'm a little worried that a smaller kite wouldn't get my fatbutt moving.

My best so far with the Apex 5m is 63.1kph (39.2mph) that was a downwind run in about 15 knots. I'm about 187lbs and my buggy is a vmax with midi's/backrest/luggage....not real light!

One combo that could be very nice is the 5m Apex III and the Montana 9.5. I nearly went for a Montana myself.....still might - they're very highly thought of here.

You may have seen this -5m Apex at 13th Beach

One thing I have to give my two Apex's - they are the easiest kites to fly one handed while I muck about with the camera!!

Actually for the low wind battles I was used to on the East Coast, I might say the 9.5 and 12.5. You might not get much use of the 7m since you could buggy with the 9.5 up to 20 mph winds I'd say. You could roll with 7-8 or even a few less. Adding the 12.5 would take you down even a few more. But you'll want to put it away after 12 or so. On the lakebed, I'd just get the 7, which is something all this talk has me thinking about. I want to fly one at nabx back to back with the new apex 3 7.5m.

Yeah... I went with a two-kite quiver for buggy riding for quite some time. Thought I was good with that (8 & 12m FS Outlaws). I could use the 12m in 10mph of wind, with some work. The 8m I can hold down until about 30mph, gets a bit sketchy over 25mph, but doable.

Now that I have the 15m S3 Dlx, I use that from about 5-15mph. Over 10, I still reach for my 12m mostly, but I can hold the 15m up to about 20 mph (gets sketchy over 15mph).

Granted, I'm not exactly a small guy. I weigh in at about 190lbs right now. Add in my PL Comp XR at about 50lbs more.

Hope that helps.

Ragden, thanks for the breakdown on the Outlaws. Good details there.

I like the idea that John and Angus have both suggested, an Apex/Montana combo for high/low winds. Ideas on sizes for each? 5 or 7.5 Apex with a 9.5 or 12.5 Montana?

I'd also love to hear from any Neo experts - 6 and 11? 8 and 11?

Thanks guys.

For East Coast flight, I'd go for the 9.5 Montana/7.5 Apex. Most that have 2 neos have the 8 and 11.

For me the 5m Apex II is good from about 12 knots to 22 ish Better flyers than me will run it harder than that. My 7.5m is about 8 knots to nearly 20. The 9.5 Montana easily pulls away from the 7.5m Apex - don't know the bottom end, I would expect 6-7 knots and I've seen the guys flying 'em in 17 knots...ish. Guess it will depend on your local winds. I do find the 5m has a lot of overlap with the 7.5m.

5 or 7.5m Apex III would be a good start. Montana would be my next choice for DePower buggying.

I have a Neo 8m and 11m and I am pretty impressed with them. If it is too windy for the 8 I got to a 3m fb and the 11m with some finesse will get me down near 6mph on hardpack 10mph on grass. So I can buggy from about 6 to 16-17 with the 11 and to just about 30 with the 8. I am inland and usually on thick grass and my 200lbs helps me hold the kite down too but the combo works really well for me. Expect a learning curve when going from fb to depower in the buggy but once you get the hang of it the whole world changes in my opinion.

Thanks stetson, that's just the kind of info I need.

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Originally posted by acampbell What some forget is that the Montanas are just as stable as the Apex but faster. You can trade the great lift in for speed and that improves upwind work...

Is the lift for speed trade off done with something like an AofA setting, or is it more of a technique?

It's with the center depower strap adjustment pulled in for shorter, which yes, is turning down the AoA, trading off grunt and lift (and higher drag) for for more speed, less drag and flying closer to edge of the window for improved upwind performance.