Wonder if static was keeping the vents shut - kinda tough to get into them though.

As I see it this is the thing about Arcs that makes them troublesome for some and a breeze for others. People have varying tastes or methods for doing stuff.

Bob states that he didn't want to fill the wing anymore than he had because of the wind conditions. I ride with a guy here that does the same and he has more kitemares at launch than any other Arc flier in my neck of the woods.

Where I always fill the wing to just below the point that it won't lay clamshelled. I'd launch a wing with less air if I had to but as I use an inflator and a weight to keep her in place (sometimes if needed) I just fill it completely.

I think Kami's right, I think it's possible the vents weren't completely clear.

Check this vid I made this morning and you'll see how much air I usually put in.

http://youtu.be/bMmVygMdJ9o

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd As I see it this is the thing about Arcs that makes them troublesome for some and a breeze for others. People have varying tastes or methods for doing stuff.

Dang, thats exactly my point! Markite was saying orginally that he wasn't having any trouble with that 15m charger, and either was the first owner. Yet the other guy had lots of trouble. I was getting the feeling that many people aren't using the charger correctly then they are complaining about having problems with them.

After all of the kite events i've been too this year, i have noticed that many arc users do not know how to properly launch their arcs, even though CTB has put out the best how to videos. The main thing they do wrong is that they don't set up their kite the same way everytime. that is key. repitition so it becomes second nature.

The other thing is that many guys out there launch arcs with almost no backline tention while under inflated. that tention keeps the tips from clapping together and allows for the kite to flare open and fill the intake vents.

I understand that every once in a while you get in a hurry since you havn't had a session in a long time, so you get a little hasty. We all do that. But when 5 people use the same kite and there's no issue except for with one rider, then i start to think that the one rider is less experienced and isn't doing things the proper way.

i was getting frustrated last week when this mod thread was first posted. I know that Markite is a very experienced kiter and he knows when there is an issue, and he just wanted to pass on some great info to the pkf family. but i think installing a mod on a kite because you don't know how to launch your kite properly is a big mistake.

I know that PL is flawed in that they only have out one arc at a time. I think they should have a high performance arc, and a beginner to intermediate arc out for sale at the same time. I understand when guys want to slow down the charger because it is REALLY fast, especially the smaller sizes.

thanks for the input krug......you have somewhat confirmed what i was feeling last week

The kite looked pretty good for inflation and he flew it a while dipping it off to the side of the wind window and it seems to be gusty. Just before things start to happen Bob has a bit of tug and goes downwind a little while the kite also comes down to the edge of the window. I'd bet at that point the kite caught a rotor where it actually surged forward a little, Bob went forward a little and with those 2 small things and then a lull or some backwind on the kite it opened right up and drifted back and then got the side wind clam shelling it.
When I have a tip clap - usually much less air inside on a launch - I'll often let go of the bar or just lightly hold it for steering and reach up and aggressively yank the centre line as high as I can reach to pop the kite open. Tough one when static flying, your body is taking all the resistance and you are sliding (this is where you don't want to be on rough ground), on skis or something else you can at least be sliding downwind a little when the kite clamshells and prepare for the power surge if it opens pointing straight up.
It is that tip clapping and getting it re-opened that some people find more of an issue than others and I've sen it happen throughout sessions in the winter - not just on a launch, but it usually happens in turbulent conditions when throwing the kite around. It's easier to pop open in lighter winds over stronger winds and having the ability to move toward the kite a little will also usually help it open.

On underinflation, the collapse usually looks a little different with the leading edge dropping down first and then it will do a dramatic inversion or flop/twist or clam shell.

Quote:

Originally posted by markite When I have a tip clap - usually much less air inside on a launch - I'll often let go of the bar or just lightly hold it for steering and reach up and aggressively yank the centre line as high as I can reach to pop the kite open.

This is the trick every new arc user shoud learn! pull that bar in and yank those center lines!

Quote:

Originally posted by flyjump This is the trick every new arc user shoud learn! pull that bar in and yank those center lines!

so do you find you are pulling in the bar and yanking Adam? I usually find getting the tension off the back lines (don't touch the bar) and yanking to open.

yes i pull in the bar to stall the kite out so that the tips will open up and the intake vents will inflate. If it stalls out too much i think yank on the center lines to get it to move just a little bit forward to start to fill up again.

but i usually fly in stronger winds with a big kite, so i make it stall out so it won't accelerate forward and send me for a ride

yup, I see what you are doing
cheers
M
- hey, shouldn't you be teaching?

hahaha yeah my students are taking a quiz right now. Scientific method and graphing. easy stuff. i'm getting so stoked because winds are starting to come through our area again. my kiddos keep asking me if I will take them flying lol

I guess I was misunderstood about the kites inflation in the video. It was very windy that day and no problem to get the kite fully inflated. Any underinflation it had was because it might've leaked down a little between last zip up and launch. It flew fine for a bit and looked like a tight sail the whole time. the gusts seem to be the problem here. The Charger has pushed performance right to its limit and that's why I've never seen that happen on a synergy, phantom, or Venom.

The kite was fully inflated from what I could tell.

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob I guess I was misunderstood about the kites inflation in the video. It was very windy that day and no problem to get the kite fully inflated. Any underinflation it had was because it might've leaked down a little between last zip up and launch. It flew fine for a bit and looked like a tight sail the whole time. the gusts seem to be the problem here. The Charger has pushed performance right to its limit and that's why I've never seen that happen on a synergy, phantom, or Venom.

oh sorry bob, this wasn't about your video. i was talking about marks friend that has the issue with tip clapping. I think your video is just a lull or a vortex of wind. i've had that happen with all my old arcs, but i also live in the middle of the ozark mountains. junky wind makes that happen every once in a while. for you i don't think it was so much the kite as it was the wind.

AD72, I had to watch the vid twice because the first time I was too busy drooling over that beautiful field :D I've never seen something so nice before! The biggest thing I've had the pleasure of flying on is a football field.

Seems like a bad batch or bad tuning to me.

Hey Mark, your 6m ever clap?

Haven't flown it enough to get a full fair assessment of the kite.
1st flight - fairly light air for that size of kite and pulled it out just to beach fly it and amazed it flew in the low wind range and delivered some power
2nd flight - pulled it out in some good higher winds for buggying and wicked fast - never had any tip clap but super sensitive to steering input at high speed and found I was constantly watching not to oversteer and at high speed a bit more hands on the bar to keep it level for fear it would rip up to the zenith
3rd flight - at a sports field with some different adjustments to try and slow down turning - again light to moderate wind static flying - no real tip clap - didn't slow down the turning at all with different setting and started to make a new bridle to try out
4th flight - winter - looking forward to the fast speed and turning but absolutely crazy swirling gusty winds with every kite doing a hula dance that day - wild launch with the kite all over the place and well past 90 degrees then opening and drifting - trick is GET OUT AND MOVING ASAP to get steady airflow. Standing around trying to tame a kite after a launch in bad conditions will usually end up with a twisted kite. Get moving and it all locks into place. It was as good as any other kite that day (which was brutal for everyone), except I wasn't getting trashed until it ended as I bottomed out in a foot and a half of quicksand slush surprise. So the 6 is a bit of an untamed stallion - the clapping I've seen has been on larger sizes but more often in our gusty conditions in the winter and happens when you get in wind shadows or overfly after a jump etc and the kite luffs and not even frequent enough that I would call it a design problem. Very similar to flying a race foil vs a moderate profile wing in gusty conditions - you need to adjust to the kite and conditions.
Hoping to get more time on the 6 soon - thinking that might be one I'll put tip adjusters on to see if it will give me a range of steering control for different uses.

Seanny, I used to have a field like that a stones throw from my house but now it is a tomato patch. So now I go to the water where I can kite for miles.:wee:

I have tip clapped the 18M Phantom but that was due to underinflation and 21M lines. Has not happened since with 24 and more inflation. I remember Flexiblade having problems with his 12M Phantom and short lines.

Bob, i was watching your video again to see what happend to your kite for the wild ride.

I have had this happen on all of my arcs in extremely unstable winds. I think the smaller kites are more suseptable to the kite fallinng to pieces until it finds another reasonable piece of clean air to grabl ahold of.

I think the larger arcs to a better job at avoiding this simply because there is more kite there to balance out any wind vortex or dead spot in the bumpy wind. Still I think any arc will do this if the wind is junky enough. I had my old 15m phantom do this really bad before and it caused the kite to bowtie even though I had been flying already for 30mins. The wind direction that day was coming across the entire city, so there where plenty of holes and shifting gusts etc....... I think the only way to avoid this is to fly in clean winds lol:saint:

Also I wanted to adress the problem of launching underfinlated(general statement not talking about anyones kite in particular). When you ride the smaller kites in really high winds, the time it takes to get to your bar and hook in and launch much of the air can be pushed out of the kite. There is no way to avoid this unless you have somebody hold the zipper open until you are hooked in and ready to go. the helper can zip it shut right as you are starting to launch to help avoid a sketchy launch. if you are like me and fly by yourself a lot, there is no way to avoid this.

there was a guy on year last year or so who wrote about his 6m synergy(?) and having to launch it in big winds. He said the air always got pushed out so someone had to hold his harness down as he launch since the kite always fluttered into the powerzone where it would inflate quickly and launch him forward down wind.

I haven't had any tip clap on my smaller wings that I can recall. My 15m kites have been the most prone, my 19m has never and I don't recall my 10 or 8m doing it. I don't know if the small sizes are more or less prone or if they seem less prone to me because when there's a hint trouble the kites is fast enough to be repositioned before things get to the point of clapping.

They seem much less prone to "air bricks" than other kites.

Good description on the 6m by the way Mark. Very similar to my expiriences with the 8m and the 6m P2. Even though they're small they're still Chargers and unintentional placement in a power/lift building position and they will pull you right into orbit. But without the glide of thier bigger siblings.:Ange09: And at the speeds the move it's easy to make a mistake.

The power the build is Ahhhhhh-Mazing. While sining the 8m I was able to go nearly as fast as I could on the 12m. I was very suprised by this. Initially I kept crashing because she was so fast and one little mistake would go all to hell before I knew it. I slowed the hell out of the steering but that's all it did was slow the steering, not the kite. So sure it kept me from over correcting and making mistakes but if I hit turbulence it was so slow to respond that the kite would accelerate into troube before I could get it back.

I was going to take the VPC off and see how that worked but after a session or two on it stock my handling got up to speed and everything smoothed out.

I agree with Adam on the low volume wings and how they are affected quickly by air loss. But even my 6m P2 hold air longer than my 16m Scorp did. Hell I can hold my breath longer than that kite could!

The Syns and the Chargers see to hold air the best IMO. The thing about low inflation launches is that with a lot of practice they are manageable and once you get the hang of it and get that skill of balancing front and back line pressure to keep the wing's form while launching dialed your confidence and security goes way up. When we first started flying Arcs we would stay close to our anchors on light wind days in case we got stuck in a lull and lost air pressure. Now I'll fly 30 miles out on an F-Arc with hardly a worry because I've practiced getting her airborn with about 1/3 the air she needs.

Makes flying Arcs even better!

@ AD, Thanks on the avatar. People give me grief about the full face, all the black I wear and the black kites and call me "Vader". Didn't plane the color scheme (except for the kites, I asked for black) so I figure what the hell?, Darth Vader is a bad A$$ so I'm gonna embrace it.

I think my avatar would look sick on my kites.:evil: