OK- I know before I start that I'm probably opening up a huge can of worms here BUT between FS, PL, and now the HQ Neo and Matrix I've been thinking a lot about closed cell foil kites, and how you don't need to pump them up.

It's got me wondering why we don't all fly closed cell kites (yup- that was the can of worms ). I figure there must be some significant differences in the performance/flying characteristics of the two kites that escape a noob like me.

So, what do you think? Tell us what you fly and why. I'm especially interested in hearing from people with experience flying both kinds of kites in the water.

Mike
If you ride land,snow and water you need lots of kites to maximize riding time. Every kite has it's niche and being able to pull out the right kite at the right time makes it all worthwhile . I say try them all and see what you like.

@g-force sound advice to be sure. I've just been wondering about the differences others have observed as it seems that it would take many years for me to try them all on my own (much as I would love to just buy one of each!).

It seems to me that I rarely see LEI kites on land or snow- whereas they seem to reign supreme in the water.

The rigid shape makes them easier to handle, especially if you park them up on the beach. Rigidity also makes the LEIs a little easier to relaunch for newbies too ... the perception that they're "simpler" and "more robust" helps fuel their widespreadness too ...

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeDobbs It seems to me that I rarely see LEI kites on land or snow- whereas they seem to reign supreme in the water.

Things vary on the other side of the Atlantic. The lads of Essex and Frinton seem to like their LEIs a lot.







ATB,
Sam

I ride my LEIs on land all the time; today in fact. The winds are really gusty and shifty at the park I ride at, and my open cell foils sometimes do weird things (tip tucks/collapse) due to the turbulence. I prefer my LEIs because they hold their shape, don't weird stuff, and they have enough depower to let me spill the gusts if I need. Plus I'm already used to the turning speed, feel, amount of lift and float, and wind range they have from riding on water with them so much.

Open/closed cell foils on land are great because if you crash the kite, there's no bladder to worry about. Plus they provide gobs of float (at least in all the videos I've seen). For snow, they pack down much smaller and not having to spend time in the cold pumping them up is a big plus. That said, I have see quite a few vids of LEIs being ridden on snow. As IndigoWolf showed, things are different in other areas.

The best thing to do is demo as many as you can and find your preference amongst the kites you try.

The open cell foil are easier to put down on land. You can back stall all the way to the ground and they sit put with a stake. Closed cell tend to want to bounce around a bit and go back to flying - which is great for on the water. They are manageable on land - you just need to have your landing and stakedown technique dialed in.
LEIs - I have only used on water so far but have done a couple of self land which was very easy. I have not yet tried to self launch. I completely agree with gusts and the rigid structure of the LEI beneficial. If you have an LEI that you can dump power easy like a SLE/Bow with a long throw bar it is a great combo.
When you get that Pulse, try out the two settings on the mixer with the lock collars. (you will see what I mean when you get the kite). One setting is for higher wind that is supposed to make the kite more stable. I meant to try that out but did not get around to it.

If I could find a foil that gave me the same flying performance that I get with my Bularoos I'd switch in a heartbeat. I ride waves and do downwinders, something foils suck at. Still looking but haven't found any that even come close. Otherwise, foils have numerous other advantages over inflatos so if you do other types of kiting they may be your better option.

i fly both all the time the pump for land is extra work.

quick n easy launch on a foil and tough! really good for the long haul and less maintenance .

i have some of the same foils i started with years ago. i have eaten a bunch of tubes ,BECAUSE I USE THEM ON LAND and DO SELF LAUNCH/LAND, and a ton of repairs, all bladders!

the soft kites tend to be smooth into power and easy on the body and a floaty air feel esp. like matrix/FS .

tubes have very steep power rate. tubes are safer for the beginner. tubes have more rigid feel and this acceleration free power allows the pilot not need to be a "kiter" . this "slow power" or "grunt" conveys confidence in the beginner and makes it easier. plus its your float boat if something breaks ...and it will, promise.

foils require the pilot to accelerate the kite to SPEED for power more aggressively and most newbies are not that invested in KITE PILOTING. the dynamic system just requires a little more speed esp . arcs (and a fraction more air for powered on the water) while FS/matrix really do well in clean air.

light air foils are better but tubes will have the "grunt factor" which translates into alot of power and speed on land starting about 10mph.

i like both. its really about the breeze and how much time and if land or water.

water typically a tube is choice, but combo sessions can go either way.

and 2-3hours on a tube my back will hurt, 2-3hours on an arc my shoulders hurt....hmmm i should get matrix! less bar pressure!

wow, great discussion.

Around here for snowkiting, on average it is about a 60-40 foil-lei ratio. I finally got one after my buddy kept bringing up the particular benefits of LEI kites. I have only got a chance to try here and there on water and mostly on the landboard. For landboarding, would agree with Burritobandit, in the winds we get here, the rigid structure of the LEi and crazy depower on the bar allows for some riding in conditions my foil would complain a lot. I really like my foil for snowkiting though, like the jumps and float for sure, quick to pack up and down. I am curious to see how I'll like LEI on the snow.

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeDobbs It seems to me that I rarely see LEI kites on land or snow- whereas they seem to reign supreme in the water.

I'm not sure where you are snowkiting but most places I have been LEI have been the most common kite out there ? Around here 95% of the snowkite crowd are the same folks that have been kitesurfing the area before freeze up. Foils and arcs are usually the minority. The only days I can think of that foils are most common are the near no wind days when LEI won't fly and the locals stay home.

I really only have Green Lake and the Montana Snowkite rodeos as my reference.

Once you are used to the routine pumpming isn't such a big deal. I bit of a workout forced on you pre ride. OFTEN folks are pumped up before mother nature has inflated my arcs ! Bladders deflate a lot faster than my arcs for faster pack up.

Foils have the advantage of packing well for travel and flop and go flying. They will stand up to crashing a bit better and often can be repaired on the go to save the day. Soft kites used to be less responsive but that is changing.

It really IS a matter of preference ! I think the trick is to have kites that you are familiar with so you can relax yet get the most out of them !

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far!

Bladerunner- I've actually never been snowkiting, it just seems to me that when I watch vids on YouTube that people on land tend to be on foils- never intended that to be a declaration of fact, just something I noticed.

It's really great to hear all of your comments on the differences between these kites and why you might choose one or the other for a particular day. I'm planning to do some snowkiting this winter and now I'm thinking I should pack my Argo along with my Montana to see how they differ.

I'm pretty new to this sport having only gotten past flying kites and into moving with them this summer, so it's great to hear from all of you- helps me to better understand the equipment. Now I know that in gusty winds I might be better putting up my Argo even if landlocked : )

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner Quote: Originally posted by MikeDobbs It seems to me that I rarely see LEI kites on land or snow- whereas they seem to reign supreme in the water. I'm not sure where you are snowkiting but most places I have been LEI have been the most common kite out there ? Around here 95% of the snowkite crowd are the same folks that have been kitesurfing the area before freeze up. Foils and arcs are usually the minority. The only days I can think of that foils are most common are the near no wind days when LEI won't fly and the locals stay home. I really only have Green Lake and the Montana Snowkite rodeos as my reference. Once you are used to the routine pumpming isn't such a big deal. I bit of a workout forced on you pre ride. OFTEN folks are pumped up before mother nature has inflated my arcs ! Bladders deflate a lot faster than my arcs for faster pack up. Foils have the advantage of packing well for travel and flop and go flying. They will stand up to crashing a bit better and often can be repaired on the go to save the day. Soft kites used to be less responsive but that is changing. It really IS a matter of preference ! I think the trick is to have kites that you are familiar with so you can relax yet get the most out of them !

Here it's all Peter Lynn Arcs and Flysurfers. Most of the snow only riders are riding Arcs here. We have stupid gusty conditions 90% of the time.

Almost all of us started on Ozones and Jojo's. We never see Ozones here hardly ever now. We see more HQ's.

When I raced at Mille Lacs last winter it was full on LEI fest. We never see LEIs here so it was quite a trip for me. Slingshot pretty much was THE kite there. I've never seen more Slingshot kite in my life.

There were a couple of Ozone Manta's but the wind was so light during the race I don't remember seeing them on course. There were no FLysurfers that I remember.

I was the only Peter Lynn there and my (or Rudeboy's) Synergy Arc won the Kite Xing. I didn't compete in the short track race the next day because I wanted to explore the lake.

True tho, try anything you can get ahold of.