To me, when a seller says "no damage or repairs" it means exactly that. No pin holes, patches, rips, broken lines, etc. etc. It should be just like brand new except for some gentle wear and minor staining. But to some people, it seems (and I won't name names) a kite that has "no damage or repairs" can still have pin holes, patches and broken bridle lines. When people post double talk like this, it makes me wonder just how bad the kite's condition really is? Does this bother anyone else or am I just being too fussy?

+1

"No damage or repairs" means, to me, that there is no damage or repairs. Pin holes, broken bridles, those all qualify as damages and if you repaired, them, repairs. Being upfront and honest right from the get go works a lot better and leads to no misunderstanding down the line.

Would definitely get me a bit confused and hesitant to do business...

BK
There is a Good (bad) Trader list that is an effective way of dealing with some sellers. I have gotten to the point.. if they aren't willing to take a return I will not buy it.

L

Not being too fussy at all.
"No damage or repairs" is a fairly straightforward definition wise.

In a perfect world, staining, LE Mesh condition (if applicable), state of "crispiness," and condition of bridle, lines and control gear would be enumerated seperately and in detail.

Since you can't inspect the kite, in person and most people's ouija board skills are marginal, you are counting on the seller's thorough and accurate description of the "state of kit."

Someone described a kite as "like new" and it came through with noticeable LE mesh snags.

Another person sent through a kite with miss-matched, fuzzy, salt encrusted lines and the kite was actually brine-soaked & wet with 2 pounds of damp beach sand... and they tried to double-tap me for the shipping.

I realized it was coming from across "The Pond," I just didn't realize that meant it spent the entire trip dragged along the side of the boat. :puzzled:

In fairness, I have also received kites that looked like they had been pulled from store stock, still had factory creases and were wrapped in the OEM shipping ribbon. In good enough condition for me to believe that someone sells "new kite smell" in spray bottle form.

In the former transactions, no one died and no animals were injured or mistreated (at least I didn't find any gull feathers), but it still peeves and is rant/soapbox worthy.

ATB,
Sam

I agree totally...... No damage or repairs mean just that.....

This falls squarely on the seller to represent the kite he is selling as honestly as possible. Surprises are not very fun after you have shelled out your hard earned money.

I know myself I try to take pics and video so the buyer can get the best look possible at the kite before buying. If there are ANY repairs you need to let people know and yes a pin hole is kite damage and if repaired it should be stated.

I have also purchased those "closet" kites in which old pictures or no pictures were used in the description. These kites are listed as the seller "remembers" how they were when they put them away or the last time they flew the kite.

Sam's last statement really wraps it up......

virgin to "been had by the team" for three seasons. difficult call....NEVER USE THE "GIFT"
on paypal. AND ONLY PAYPAL.

-went up on a deal for a kite and cat was IN JAIL! ebay/ paypal made good on that one.
-lots of pics close up and PUMP AND HOLD DAY OF SHIP!

i want drag up old stuff... or maybe i will .....dude sold me a kite LE and one strut is all that would air ...dude completley blew it off...POS....but i fixed and did this....

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=19854&p...

did a short vid of the repairs with in a ride vid

http://vimeo.com/34418262

sometimes you have this

Quote:

Originally posted by PHREERIDER i want drag up old stuff... or maybe i will

Epic freudian slip

Re Paypal gift option, this was recently posted on another forum I frequent:

• Requesting and/or requiring a buyer to use the PayPal "gift" option for payment of goods is a direct violation of PayPal Terms of Service! (TOS) and effectively asks the buyer to commit fraud by declaring the payment as a gift rather than payment for goods.
  
  
• While CPF is not in the business of enforcing PayPal TOS, CPF does not and will not support or condone what could be considered 'illegal activities'.
  
  
• Morality and illegality aside, the "gift" option removes the buyer's right to utilize the PP protection, and his ability to lodge a PP dispute and/or claim vs. the seller if something goes wrong (package doesn't arrive, contents not as stated, etc). In making a gift payment, the buyer has absolutely no redress at all.
  
  
• Therefore, the request and/or requirement from a seller for a buyer to use the "gift" option for the sale of goods in a sales thread in a public forum is prohibited in any and all buy/sell/trade threads on CPF and CPFMP.
  
  
• In addition, PayPal TOS states: " You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods)."
  
  
• Members who violate this policy will be asked to edit their posts and/or the post will be edited by a Moderator.

ATB,
Sam

I think the kite should be listed honestly as the condition it is actually in. No damage or repairs should mean the kite has "no damage" or has been repaired!!! Pinholes can be a little bit hard to really get into because sometimes the customer may not know that one or two of them are in the kite. If he is flying it and taking care of it as best he can, he may not even realize there is one or two pinholes in there.

Now if the kite is plastered with excessive wear and has tons of pinholes throughout, I feel it is the obligation of the seller to list the kite as such. With that much wear it obviously wouldn't be listed as "Like New". If the kite is listed as "flown a lot but still in great condition" I would kind of assume that there will be normal wear and tear and that the kite may have one or two pinholes.

I feel integrity plays a big part of this. If I listed a kite as "like new" and then the customer found some wear parts that I was not aware of, I would do whatever I could to make it right either by taking the kite back or by offering the customer some sort of compensation. It is unfortunate that not all people are like this.

Just my two cents.....

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER i want drag up old stuff... or maybe i will Epic freudian slip ATB, Sam

for some, comedy phlows.... just need the proper audience

nice catch !

Like everybody I think No Damage No Repairs is a pretty black and white statement. Like new is a step above. At that point you can expect no stains or wear on parts.

I have sold a kite that I must have damaged during cleaning for shipping. It was an honest mistake . I took the kite back + paid shipping with the return payment. You should get no less !

I think one of the best parts of PKF is the for sale section. The good traders list is part of what helps make it clear this is not the place to unload gear not as described. Bringing these issues to light is important in keeping our reputation as a good place to trade in gear. It has been done before and I think it is good. Serves up warning to others.

If this person has sold you gear with all the damage you describe and you aren't satisfied I would be interested in knowing who it was ?

Did you ask for / get pictures? I expect ALL defects to be shown if I ask for pictures.

I sold a Libre Spirit to a guy in Germany last year which I thought was in really great condition and advertised it as such. The German dude was not happy to say the least and posted back lots of pictures magnified many many times until the rip-stop squares were like an inch wide on the screen.

It show of all the faults he found including pin holes which I never knew were there, mould and colour runs in the material.

He wanted me to refund him 50 euros to make the problem go away but I refused as I knew it was a great kite. I refunded his money straight away and he returned the kite.

The kite fly's beautifully despite the pin holes. The 4 millimetres of mould is hard to make out from 30 meters away and the manufactures colour stain has only marginal effect on fly characteristics and aerodynamics.

Some peoples idea of damage will always differ from others. I'm the type of person who likes to fly my kites, not keep them on show behind a glass cabinet.

Around my way you get a lot of weekend warrior kitesurfers with brand new kites in pristine condition and boy they suck. I think they buy the latest kites because they look cool and have a cool name.

I remember seeing this one dude heading for the water with a very old kite covered in patches. The kite was almost entirely made from patches and no attempt made to even colour match with the original material.

His kite told a story of his many battles with the wind and surf and I really respected that.
I want to be that guy.

I think "no damage or repairs" is pretty obvious as to what it means, and if you wish to sell it as such, you should make a bloody effort to check the product!

Pinholes like RedSky mentioned are easy to miss but colour runs etc don't #@%$#!in matter unless you're asking top dollar for a pristine product. I'd have been pissed if that was me.

Caveat Emptor on used goods but you bloody well expect an honest trade!!!

Sounds like most of us are in agreement on this. The reason I brought up this topic is because of a few ads I've seen recently (both here and on eBay) where the seller claimed the kite had no damage or repairs, but then immediately started to list all the repairs and damage the kite had, with photos of patches, wear spots, etc. I even saw a kite advertised on eBay as "new" but it obviously had been repaired numerous times and was well worn. It's almost as if the word "no" really meant "not many" or "just a few" to some people. I'm not naming names, but I hoped that maybe a bit of peer pressure might bring this sort of blanket ignorance to light.

Quote:

Originally posted by RedSky I sold a Libre Spirit to a guy in Germany last year which I thought was in really great condition and advertised it as such. The German dude was not happy to say the least and posted back lots of pictures magnified many many times until the rip-stop squares were like an inch wide on the screen. It show of all the faults he found including pin holes which I never knew were there, mould and colour runs in the material. He wanted me to refund him 50 euros to make the problem go away but I refused as I knew it was a great kite. I refunded his money straight away and he returned the kite. The kite fly's beautifully despite the pin holes. The 4 millimetres of mould is hard to make out from 30 meters away and the manufactures colour stain has only marginal effect on fly characteristics and aerodynamics. Some peoples idea of damage will always differ from others. I'm the type of person who likes to fly my kites, not keep them on show behind a glass cabinet. Around my way you get a lot of weekend warrior kitesurfers with brand new kites in pristine condition and boy they suck. I think they buy the latest kites because they look cool and have a cool name. I remember seeing this one dude heading for the water with a very old kite covered in patches. The kite was almost entirely made from patches and no attempt made to even colour match with the original material. His kite told a story of his many battles with the wind and surf and I really respected that. I want to be that guy.

had very a similar event. flew the unit maybe 20 hours and it just did fit my fly style ... sold it, i stated the canopy was in great shape. i never even looked over the unit i just flew for few sessions, handling it, pack it, i was very impress how fresh it felt and certainly no repairs or blems....dude gets the unit and finds a 1" seam open inside a jet flap thingy and freaks out and gets all pissed. i told him it was news to me. i returned his $ (-shipping) and told him to keep it.
dude certainly did not offer to send it back! i suspect the seam being open was there when i first got it. i knew it was an old unit, i just wanted to fly it. i bet he resold it !

"things" and the perception of "ownership" how they are peoples masters...

Quote:

Originally posted by "no names named" "no damage or repairs" it means exactly that. No pin holes, patches, rips, broken lines, etc. etc. It should be just like brand new except for some gentle wear and minor staining.....

How does this sound ?
"In excellent condition, with the exception of 3 pin hole repairs....."

Would description like this represent what it is or perhaps from now on all our posts should be run by "PKF Morality Board" to make sure they fit the standard or bare minimum requirement of this forum.

No one twists ones arm to buy or sell anything here.
It is a risk for both seller and buyer.
One can sell the perfectly good product to a Rick that will look for any faults and try squeeze more after the sale, instead just asking up front for details.
New to buying kites, ask someone experienced for advise.

It is always resposibility of both the sellers and the buyers to make sure transaction is fair to parties. Unless either does not care about the end result

Kharma can be a "female dog" or a lady, it is a personal choice on which side of hers one wants to be ;-)

Quote:

Originally posted by RedSky His kite told a story of his many battles with the wind and surf and I really respected that. I want to be that guy.

+1 I feel like that in every sport I seriously participate in
It is the swordsman, not the sword.

In my opinion, descriptions like "excellent", "good", "like new", etc. are all subjective, meaning what's "excellent" in my eyes may not be in yours. I'm good with that and pretty much ignore subjective descriptions since I'm the fussiest guy I know anyways. But when someone says "no damage or repairs" and then posts photos that clearly show patches I say to myself, "Huh?".

I don't see this happen much here on the PKF forums, but I have seen it with increasing frequency on eBay which is kind of surprising because a negative feedback pretty much scars your selling ability for a long while.

No question, buying something used is a risk. Buying a new kite in the shop after having seen it with your own two eyes is pretty much the only way to be 100% certain of what you're getting. I'm happy to say that I haven't had any bad experiences here (knock on wood). In fact all my experiences buying and selling on PKF have been positive, that's why it's the only place I buy and sell used kites.

I have always tried to be super honest about the condition of the kites I have sold and if anything have painted their condition as worse then they actually are because I would never want anyone to be disappointed or surprised in a negative way with what shows up at their door.

I have bought kites (not from anyone currently active here) that came with damage to the sail or lines that was not disclosed prior to the sale. Having experienced that disappointment and frustration, I don't want to provide that experience to others.

I bought some dinner plates for my wife on ebay that were listed as "A1 Perfect condition". When they arrived 2 of the 4 were "seconds" and the other 2 were as described. It was a horrible exhibition of non customer service in emails to work it out and when she wouldn't agree to give me my money back on the 2 defective plates, and cover return shipping, I had to go to ebay which told her to do what I had been asking all along. Then she was incredulous that I gave her a negative review in the end and wanted me to retract it. I asked her what single positive thing she did willingly that I could give her a positive review about. More nasty emails. I stuck to it though and she had to live with the negative review.

It is up to the seller foremost....to disclose all information he would think that the most picky buyer would want to know. To do less is at least not well thought out- and at worse -purposeful omission.

That's called being a good seller. It's called being forthright and honest.

It's a buyers responsibility to ask questions ONLY when the seller has not been thorough through haste, mistake, or the details are so much- it's insurmountable

Or the buyer should ask questions if suspicious of any detail, as well as nondisclosure.

No it's not easy to think of all the details on a product to describe...but this is where the SUPERIOR seller comes in. There's bad, there's good, and then there is superior.



If the seller did the former well, the buyer may easily not need to ask a single question!

(.....except to ask a question already answered because they're anxious about any exact fact, or it's TOO thorough a description-and the buyer's incredulous of their good fortune to find what they're looking for in the condition they hoped or BETTER) ...especially if based on previous experience with less forthright sellers.)


BTW...We are ONLY talking about kite condition here. How a kite flies for you or them is a whole other issue
If a seller doesn't really know a model or has not tried it-and though it might be pristine condition...the disappointment after purchase in the KITE PERFORMANCE may be a issue where a buyer might accuse the seller of NONDISCLOSURE because the seller did not tell them about performance in satisfactory detail or did not match buyer's experience.

Just to make the issue more complicated(just when you thought the thread had ended!

:singing::roll::singing::roll::singing::roll::singing::roll:

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkahuna In my opinion, descriptions like "excellent", "good", "like new", etc. are all subjective, meaning what's "excellent" in my eyes may not be in yours. I'm good with that and pretty much ignore subjective descriptions since I'm the fussiest guy I know anyways. But when someone says "no damage or repairs" and then posts photos that clearly show patches I say to myself, "Huh?". I don't see this happen much here on the PKF forums, but I have seen it with increasing frequency on eBay which is kind of surprising because a negative feedback pretty much scars your selling ability for a long while. No question, buying something used is a risk. Buying a new kite in the shop after having seen it with your own two eyes is pretty much the only way to be 100% certain of what you're getting. I'm happy to say that I haven't had any bad experiences here (knock on wood). In fact all my experiences buying and selling on PKF have been positive, that's why it's the only place I buy and sell used kites.

If you see or experience this kind of behaviour on this site I would hope it is brought to light. I like to think of this site as honest and well priced. !

On Ebay, I think it is buyer beware !