Hi everyone this is my first post and im pretty much a noob to kite boarding I have owned a 10m Wind-X and a Cabrinaha Nomad 11m . I just picked up a PL 15m Synergy but the guy from the kite shop keeps telling me these are not much good for kite boarding on the water, not enough grunt to get up and go, slow is this true because I don't really see to many foils out on the water but im real keen to give it ago. How do you think it will compare to my 11m Nomad LEI.

Hey Bro, welcome. Foils are preferred for land, and snow and ice. Inflatables for water. That is the norm. They all have their own characteristics. Horses for courses some say. But there are no rules that must be followed. It is such a gear intensive sport, that some guys get wrapped around the axel. Try as many kites as you can. as your experience increases, your needs will change. Have fun and safe kiting, no matter what you fly.

A wise man once told me,
"Only kite as far as you want to swim."

Oh thanks for the info man I was looking at the Flysurfer they look just as good as LEI hope to get one of them one day.

Quote:

Originally posted by twojay Hi everyone this is my first post and im pretty much a noob to kite boarding I have owned a 10m Wind-X and a Cabrinaha Nomad 11m . I just picked up a PL 15m Synergy but the guy from the kite shop keeps telling me these are not much good for kite boarding on the water, not enough grunt to get up and go, slow is this true because I don't really see to many foils out on the water but im real keen to give it ago. How do you think it will compare to my 11m Nomad LEI.

dude at the shop has limited experience, 15m arc rocks just need a fast board. arcs do require a knot or 2 more to feel powered same as a tube. i have flown arcs and tubes for years really comes down to pilot skill and knowledge. the 15 syn will have slightly more power than an 11M, but would be used in same air.

oh finally some positive feedback about using arcs on the water can't wait to give it a run

Welcome!

Different kind of ride - like comparing bikes; two-strokes versus V-twins versus inline 4s...
With arcs versus LEI, think "wing in the sky" versus "sail in the sky" - you gotta ride 'em differently.

Flysurfers are my favourite kites - so much hang time!

Welcome to the forum twojay.

Like Phree said, the shop guy just doesn't know anything (or very little) about Arcs. The 15 Syn is a great kite and the sweet spot in the size range for that kite. And Phree's right, pilot skill and expirience really count. The more you use the Syn and get a feel for the in's and outs the more you'll like it. Just like most kites.

And Kami's right i think in his comparison which would prpbably hold true with the Flysurfers vs. LEIs. And the hangtime on a FS is pretty sick.

The types of kites you see can vary greatly from region to region. We never see LEIs here, almost exclusively Flysurfers and Peter Lynn Arcs even on water. Open cells like HQ and Ozone fill out the rest. But I've been to places where I was the only foil in the sky and everyone was on LEIs. There's a lot of brand loyalty and design loyalty out there and people will ride whatever thier friends ride etc. but I think people should try whatever they can get thier hands on and see for themselves. I never fly LEIs but got to fly some flavor of F-One a couple weeks back. It was great!

But I wouldn't give up my Arcs for one. :D But I wouldn't turn one down if the price was right either.

Twojay,
These guys are dead on! Phree, Kami, and Feyd all speak the truth. I've just converted to foils after 10 years of ridding every type of inflatable made. Do NOT listen to all the stuff people will say about foils. The people that say the most have never tried them.It's a heard mentality. Beta vs. VHS! That said, both type of kites have pluses and minuses. Don't try to compare the two, you'll just go crazy. Have fun with your 15 Syn. It's a great kite!

arcs kick it on water as do tubes..........................great intel above......fly both and you decide.......Syns are sweet on water......either way lessons mi amigo, lessons!

...this always helps , nice fat kiteloop trans in this one

http://vimeo.com/29077165 last summer

schweet vid.........................good luck on your decision!

best advice, the board --->NO concave on the board flat and slick, very little rocker, and razor rails.

Thanks for all the replies there's some great advice from all you guys has really made me feel like I did make the right choice buying a PL kite, I havent used it yet but already feel like its my favorite kite. I have the day off and the wind looks like its going for 15+ knots so going to give it a bash sure I will like it , oh and nice vid too Phreerider

You will find that folks on the water aren't familiar with Foils and Arcs. Expect to be somewhat on your own but not completely alone . Many on here use arcs on water and many more on land.
Here is a good arc site .
www.arcusers.net

I ride on land but my 15m Synergy is my go to kite. Love it from 10kts to mid 20s . It will serve up lots of power just in a different way. Same with relaunch. It is all what you know !

Arcs DID have a problem with slow turning and not a ton of depower at 1st but the Synergy is in with the newer FAR better arcs !

I was talking with a guy today and he said that the one I got is an older one and doesn't have a lot of depower as it was one of the first synergy that came out is he correct the bar moves about 30 cm from power to depower and is this something to be worried about in the higher wind range. It was blowing up around 17-20 knots today so I was a bit worried to put it up.

I could be wrong, but a synergy is a synergy. There is no old or new synergy. If its a synergy... its a synergy. And from what I've heard, they have decent depower and range. I would still recommend launching it in the lower winds of its range though. If you are learning, start with lighter winds, then work your way up.

Supposedly, early batch of Syns needed extensions added to the rear pigtails. If you find yourself shortening the trimstrap significantly to keep it from stalling all the time on the lowend of it's wind range, then the extensions should be added. Because if you don't you will lose that depower range from your trimstrap. I needed to add 8" to the 15 and 4" to the 10. The Syns have awesome range!

Rags is right. A Syn is a Syn. They didn't make any Syn variants, models went from the Syn to the Charger. But like Zero say's there were some that needed tweaking.

True, the amount of depower will rely a lot on your bar choice. The Syn came with the Peter Lynn '07 bar but will work well with any bar that has the same leader lenghts, trim range and throw. Infact it will work better with longer throw and longer trim range like on the Peter Lynn Navigator bar.

If the leaders on your bar aren't the correct length you can compensate and tune it with the addition of pigtails either at the bar or at the wing.

CHeck this site out. It has a TON of useful info for setting up, tuning and modding Peter Lynn Arcs. It also gives you what you need to know in regards to using non-peter lynn bars with Arcs.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

I agree with Ragden, take the 15m out in light winds and just try to get a feel for it. If the winds are below the wind range on the 15m you should stiull be able to static fly her no problem. Just remember that internal air pressure is critical on Arc kites. If you don't have enough air, if she's not fully inflated, then it's bowtime city.

You can offset low pressure by alternating back/front line pressure and keep bowties at bay until she inflates but it takes practice.

Also, run all internal settings (the straps inside the wing) at full loose. It will make life a little easier at first and then you can play with those adjustments later once you get flying it more dialed. A lot of people have personal tastes in how to run those straps but I've found that full loose give me the best all round performance. Pepijn Smit, the designer of the Syn, (the V2, the Charger, the Phantom2, the PL LEIS)recommends running them full loose as well.

You have a great kite on your hands. Once you get it figured out I think you'll be super happy.

Thanks heaps guys for all the time you took to help a new arc flyer out just got a few more quick questions I had to replace the kite spars due to cracks in the old ones so I found some titanium 10 mm tube with about 1-2 mm side wall all up they probably weight double the weight of the old ones will this be a problem? And when I was flying it today it was almost wanting to fly backwards could this be because of the internal strap pulled too tight or the spars weighing to much wind was about 8-10 knots.

Where the heck did you find Ti tubing? My concern with the Ti would be flex, but then I was told that the more flex in the spars the better the profile. Fiberglass driveway markers work well and weigh about the same as the Ti does (I bet) so I wouldn't be too conserned about the weight.

And I'd be curious how they work.

If she's backstalling then your center setting is possibly too tight. As I said before, loosen them all for now. The kite was designed around NOT having those settings in play and will fly it best (in most conditions) with all loose. If the center setting is all loose and she still backstalls then your back lines are possibly too tight.

Give her a little trim, don't pull the bar in, and try to launch and see if trimming it helps. If it does then you're back lines are too tight and it needs adjustment.

In those wind speeds she'll be a little hesitant to get of the ground. She'll resist flying when you launch her until she gets about 1/3 the way up the window. (assuming this is a hot launch)

Launching an Arc in light wind is a finesse thing. Grab the center line leader just enough to put tension on the lines.

Take a step back while SMOOTHLY pulling the center lines towards you body. Hold the lines near your body as she rises. When you see her climb rate slow down let he have some slack while stepping back and do the step/pull/hold again. (If you do it right you will feel constant tension, wrong and the kite will stall out. )

When the kite is about 1/3 the way up give her a series of short sharp yanks. You will know you are doing them right because she will flap her wings very much like a bird.

Watch my F-arc launch video. The F-Arc 1600 is the hardest Arc to launch, and near impossible when it doesn't have any air in it but you can see in the video what I mean by pulling the center lines and keeping tension.

http://youtu.be/sdBV2njwwJg

Thanks Feyd, and with the Ti tube the guy in the kite shop said the same thing I don't know your knowledge on metal types but the blades in High bypass gas turbine engines are made of titanium so I don't see titanium flexing too much and flexing it by hand the titanium tube was by far much more stiffer then the original alloy tubing as Ti is harder more heat and vibration resistant then alloy. Oh and as where I got it from I work on aircraft and I may have found some in the bin lol if you know what I mean. lol did yo and u get home ok that day the wind looks to me not much.

Hey twojay! As long as you took the titanium out of the bin that's fine. But us flyboy's hate it when you steal it off the plane then put little "in-op" stickers up! We know what you guys do.

Ti6Al4V, score!

Oh I'm having trouble working out where to connect my safety leash to on the synergy bar it's a zero 7 bar I believe , on my cabrinha bar it is easy but not too sure on the synergy, anyone have a picture of the zero 7 bar and where the safety connects to as if the red leash catch comes undone by accident I will loose the kite

Here you go:



The design is that the leash is attached to the spinning ring on the chicken loop to be able to spin the bar freely. When you push the top hat away it leaves the chicken loop and the leash at the spreader bar. This releases all the velcro attachments and the kite flags on a single outside line. However some have modded the bar to flag on one of the front lines. If that is the case then you need to attach a leash to a ring on the appropriate front line. Probably above the trim adjuster where the line "Y's". Many found the front line flagout to be safer because it would still allow you to flagout the kite in the event that it got caught in a pin wheel death spiral. Hope that helps.


shaggs

Well I stopped being a cheap skate and ordered some carbon fibre tubing I still think the titanium is a bit too heavy well for the lighter winds in reality is why I bought this kite anyway and what would be the highest wind speed I would go out on this kite, I'm pretty used to my 11 m now and I sort of know when not to go out with that one but still unsure of the 15 m synergy

Twojay, I think you will find that your synergy has a HUGE wind range. I know how your feeling, unsure of it. But if you have good kite skills, you'll find it will work up to when others are out on 9 or 10 meter flat LEI's. It will work up to roughly a 14 meter LEI, but you'll find the top end starts fading off. But don't be worry about it, throw it up when you would have used your 11, and you'll see the gient wind range.
The depower is amazing, but it's not instant like your 11. But fear not, it's there.
BTW, a cheap alternative for poles is like Feyd mentioned, fiberglass rods.
In his snow country sounds like they use them for driveway markers. Here they are field fence poles for electric fences. Cut to length then round the tips. Bout 2 bucks per pole.

Wow took the Synergy out today for the first real time and had heaps of power for such low wind but one thing i was having trouble with is we I dove the kite and started to bring it back up again it was loosing all power and I was sinking back into the water again, is there some technique I need to used as its so different from my bow kite.

after a power stroke, let the bar all the way out quickly redirect straight to top of the window for another.

when the bar is all the way out the unit will turn faster and when depowered it will zoom to top of the window faster. if you HOLD it(bar) in, it will choke out if you are not going fast enough.

during the down stroke bar should be in with solid powered feel. really have to let the board run to start...have to get the speed up THEN the kite will come in speed and better power. all about quick hard thumps, letting the board run on the power strokes then carve up wind as speed builds

its a subtle combo of board and kite action to satisfy the speed balance at 13-15mph to start which is light to begin with... with MORE wind its a stroke, missile launch and right to speed. board action really plays in to the flow of things ESP. with ARCS, tubes aren't that sensitive in low wind/low speed they just kinda drop below threshold and stop.

Thanks Phreerider you have been a Hugh help I wll just keep at it I'm sure I'll pick it up soon enough