Well I bit the bullet and went for the 8m Access thanks for all of your posts

let us know how it goes!

I met up with a fellow snowkiting in Calgary ( Canadad ) this winter who has used an 8m as a one kite quiver for 3 years with no complaints.

Winds can really pick up there and He found 8m gave him a huge range.

Good Choice.

10 mtrs i fly a 8 mtrs ozone access when is really windy 25 knots to 30 and i am 163lb

This kite is super solid no problem with 10 mtrs ....the transition is very easy from you kite to the access.

This kite has some lift too

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i fly a 8 mtrs ozone access when is really windy 25 knots to 30 and i am 163lb

goes to show the difference between landboarding and buggying. In 25 knots, I'm pulling the 4m Access XT out of the bag. (actually, I'll pull the 4m XT out of the bag around 18 knots and still be nicely powered). There is no way I could handle an 8m in 25 knots. In the buggy I keep the kite low, I guess on a board, you're using the kite high.

Now I'm cornfused. The buggy weighs a shload and then you have a rider in 18 knt you run a 4m XT? I agree you have the wing lower than I see most boarders. When you say you couldn't handle the 8m in 25knts what exactly would happen?

I ask because on skis I'm having a ball on the 12m Ph2 or a 7m Apex 2 in 30knts and working really hard but hauling the mail at about 35knts +. And this is with a kite low in the window and in cold dense winds.

I don't get to play with buggies here so i'm very curious about this.

With my limited buggy experience I found that I had less rolling resistance in the buggy than the atb. I was rolling nice on a solid reach with my 6m access in the buggy. But I could only roll down winders on the atb in the same winds and same kite. So with that in mind I think you could go violently fast in a buggy and take the same kite onto an atb and find yourself well powered but in control. Maybe it has something to do with body positioning.

Holy smokes - a 7m Apex in 30-35 knots??? I'm starting to go sideways in the buggy at 22 knots with that kite. In 30, I'd just be yanked violently sideways with no control.

In 18 knots, I have plenty of power with the 4m XT and have nearly hit 70kph in 20-25 knots with that kite. I simply could not handle a 7-8m depower in those sort of winds. You are talking knots, not kph ???

Sorry for the mini hi-jack!!!

Second the apologies on the mini hi-jack. Yes I'm talking knots. =)

I thought it might be an issue of edge hold. Beamer Bob and I had discussion about this in the past.

My goto size for speed is the 12m Phantom2 (prior to that the 10m Venom, 12m Syn and 12m Charger) so roughly 7.5 m PA. And most of my fast days are in winds gusting up to 30mph gusting 40mph+. And I need the gusts to get what I'm looking for.

I'm thinking that my runs are much shorter than a buggy run? Also my runs tend to follow an arc, getting max speed right at the sweet spot in the balance point between the crosswind/downwind point and edge hold while a buggy run is more straight?

Edge hold on skis (assuming my legs are up to it) is like rails. If I'm moving forward I only get downwind drift if my legs give or my edges are sharp enough. That is if I'm on a kite with fast forward speed. A kite like my 12m Ranger has too much grunt and the extra power with wind increase DOES pull me off edge as the max forward speed on that wing is around 45mph. (I've had it up to 50mph but was being pulled off edge.)

I gotta get out on a buggy and see what its like. I assumed that the extra weight of the buggy would help offset the lack of edge hold when on dirt vs. skis. This doesn't sound like its the case. Now I'm starting to wonder what sizes of Arc a buggy guy would ride vs. a snowkiter in the same wind conditions.

All of my buggy runs that get any speed are on the beach and are usually between 3 - 7km long depending on where I am. Not many arc flyers down this way...only one is regularly out in a buggy. I think he has a 14m Synergy/Scorpion hybrid which I think he runs up to around the 20 knot mark...maybe a bit more. Only ever flown it once briefly myself but was hugely impressed by the depower range. Our runs are pretty much straight line. Tend to keep the kite very low to the deck. Above 30knots, for me, too much can go wrong too quickly and the danger v fun ratio is too much. In those sort of wind, I'll watch from a sheltered spot....but you've got my respect!

There's a vid with the Synergy/Scorpion hybrid in it here: Sandy Point Feb 2012 Nigel (the bloke flying it) has the fastest speed in Aus at the moment at 98kph which I think he got with an 8m Scorpion ??

Figure if we're gonna hijack a thread....may as well do it properly!!!

Lol don't mind the hi jacking def interesting. I've not been bugging long only about 18months, finding locations large enough is the problem. The longest near me is 1.5km and is a 2 hr drive to get to. Most beaches and open spaces frown apon and even ban traction kiting. Hence why I'm in the progress of learning kite surfing as well. I'm itching to get some good long runs, the best I get locally is between 50-100m.

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Originally posted by Feyd Now I'm cornfused. The buggy weighs a shload and then you have a rider in 18 knt you run a 4m XT? I agree you have the wing lower than I see most boarders. When you say you couldn't handle the 8m in 25knts what exactly would happen? I ask because on skis I'm having a ball on the 12m Ph2 or a 7m Apex 2 in 30knts and working really hard but hauling the mail at about 35knts +. And this is with a kite low in the window and in cold dense winds. I don't get to play with buggies here so i'm very curious about this.

Feyd, in a buggy on the playa, we run in a straight line if we aren't well powered. If you get an increase in wind and you ease into overpowered as your speed builds, you deal with the power and build the speed by making a parabolic "bearing off downwind" till you can handle the power and not be sliding sideways. My 63 mph run was very surreal because the pull from the kite was very low but still accellerating me. That's the vapor running way out front and me pointing probably 45 degrees towards downwind by then.

I can't wait to get a database of knowledge about the phantom IIs in my world to compare to yours. I'm guessing in 30 knots, I would be holding on for my life with the 9m and pretty sure the 12 would be out of the question. If I was overpowered, the buggy would slide sideways with any angle much above dead downwind. I can handle sideways but I have to get back to the car. upwind isn't so bad since I can control speed with my upwind angle and speed is kite power. Disc wheels are on the way and I understand they will be more rail like in their ability to maintain angle. Lots to test and learn about soon.

Hey Bob, we get that same parabolic effect. But it's almost immediate. Like 1) I'm hooked into the gust 1...2....3.....4.....5...maxing into the apex of parabollic....6......7......8 ...... out of parabolic and losing speed and bearing downwind. Total distance between 700-1600 feet.

The disc wheels, what is the tire width and what type of air pressures are you running?

new world for me. Tires look to be about 2.5 to 3 inches wide. No idea on pressure, but that's something I'll fiddle with to balance traction and comfort. Link to Landsegler is in my signature, so you can take a look at the wheels/tires.

At the point where you feel the power increase, our distances could be the same in the parabolic curve. I wouldn't let it take me downwind and double my speed though if I'm approaching a mandatory turn around. I bet you know where the surge of wind is going to catch you as well and you seek that out. Even with the lakebed being 2 by 6 miles or so, I'll use probably a 2 by 2 mile section for set up and then the run downwind for speed along with room to slow down. You seem to slow down from top speed in 50-75 feet! I could only do that if I tossed the kite loose.

Correct, we have the luxury off killing off our runs in between 45-100 feet. Stopping in a short distance really kills skis and takes a toll on your body so I like to feather the stop out. Sometimes we know where ther surge is but alot of the time you catch a gust at a random point and just redirect to get the most out of it. It's handy that we can see the snow, even if it's just a little bit of snow, blowing across the ice. We can usually see gusts and hook into them.:wee:

I looked at the wheels on thier site. Interesting that the lace a radial pattern instead of a 2,3 or 4 cross pattern. When I build wheels (assuming no disc brakes) I will usually do a radial for the front and mixed raidal on non drive side and 3 cross on drive side for XC bikes. Basically going for low rotational weight over survivabilty.

If I'm building a bomb proof wheelset it's 3 or 4 cross, destressed a minimum of 5 times (via side load). If the wheel is is going to be REALLY thrashed I'll wire wrap and solder the crosses. Those wheels can take serious load side or otherwise but they ride ungodly stiff. On a DH bike with 8" of travel it's not much of a problem tho.

It looks like you ar running 20" wheels. The short spokes help a lot with strength and it looks like a pretty stout guage. I wonder what durometer the tires are.

The wheels are 16". They get away with the radial spoke pattern because the wheels don't drive or brake. Their only real load is vertical and lateral. 16" is much less vulnerable than a 26 or 29 bike wheel that takes stress from virtually all angles. Stephan and Mano dished out untold abuse to the wheels and they looked good as new after more than a week of it. I don't think I'll ever ride as aggressively as they do since I probably won't ever race much. They should be great for Wexler and I.

I never thought about brake type changing the load on the wheel but yes it is night and day different.

Holy 16'? Wow, limits your tire options I bet but definately helps the strength end of things. Lowers your COG too I bet.

I was thinking about the differences in buggy and snowkite riding and one thing I keep forgetting is you guys are usually on fixed bridles where we are always trimming in and out. Like when I stop I bring the kite to the edge, feather out the skis (hard edging on ice blows ski edges out) in a slide and trim out the wing.

I gotta get my hands on a buggy and poke around on the coast.

There are tire options in that size and they tend to be cheaper as well.

That's a difference I noted from one of your videos. I have the Phantom IIs on order(still) and frequently fly the HQ Montanas so depower gets to ride about half the time for me. I tend to trim and forget unless conditions change. I see you running with the bar all the way out and working your trim strap often and usually its a big adjustment from all the way in to all the way out. I tend to set it so I can backstall with the bar all the way in and I'm very depowered with the bar out. I usually run with the bar about 2/3rds to 3/4 pulled in.

I was thinking about this yesterday. There are some really nice tires in that size range actually, mostly fort the recumbent market. I have some Maxxis Hookworms in that size from when I was making chopper bikes.

Yeah I like my bar at an arm's reach but still generating power. So fully sheeted out she isn't as depowed as she could be. Close but not quite. The depow available with these new arcs allows me to set it up this way and if I really need the full depow range I can still get it with a little or a lot of trim.

I like being able to trim, lock into the run, spool up speed, pop the trim and get the kick in the pants speed increase.:tumble: