Hey all,
Summer means essentially no wind where I'm at, often times not even enough for my Twister 5.6. So, I've been thinking about a depower for a long time because I don't think a FB in the 6-8M range is the direction I want to go with the main reason being my size. At 125lbs that's still a lot of kite even in low wind.

Next consideration is that shortly I'll be getting BeamerBob's buggy he listed and also have an ATB I'm learning to ride. I only have access to grass fields so low wind + grass means I need a good bit of power to get going. Any ideas on what size/brand I should be looking at would be helpful. Also, I could use a rundown on what other peripheral gear I'll need to get started. I know my climbing harness will not work so at a minimum I suppose I'll need a harness and spreader bar? I have protective gear so at least that's covered.

I saw a new 6M Access listed on here for sale but I'm pretty sure it's too small for my conditions. Basically I need help determining what size kite given my wind conditions will be the largest depower I can get to both learn and get regular use out of? On a separate note, I realize I'll be a newbie when it comes to depower but I am athletic and have been a quick study so far so hopefully that will allow me to start on something bigger than say a 6m?

Sorry, I thought this was being posted on kites, lines & accessories...my mistake.

What's your typical wind speed during the summer?

0-5mph, gusts to 10 is most typical. But usually not much more than 0-5mph sustained. Oftentimes I can't even fly my ultra-light stunt kite.

Not much in the way of ANY depower is going to work in 0-5mph of wind.
The only thing I can think of would be the 21m Flysurfer Speed3. Which is going to cost an arm and a leg. If you can get it inflated, and off the ground, you can probably ride with it, but 0-5 does not exactly inspire much confidence.

Is there anywhere you can drive that might get better conditions to try riding in? I noticed that summer in DC yields much the same wind conditions. However, if I drive for four hours, I can normally find somewhere that gets a little bit better wind exposure and I can actually ride... Is this an option you can exercise?

Wow, I thought I had it bad here with 5-10. Bad news. Depower may not be the answer. They like wind. I've had a couple of depower foils. HQ Apex II 10m and an HQ Montana V 9.5m. Both excellent kites but the Apex wanted 6-8 just to fly well, the Montana was about the same. Riding on grass, you will want 8-10 most likely. I LOVE depower but due to my low wind conditions, my quiver is almost exclusively fixed bridal now. Others may have better input for you, I can only speak from my personal experience, I just don't think depower will be a great way to go for your conditions.

It's strange, the wind picks up nicely in the fall and winter but summer in the inland south is hot and generally pretty windless. There are some good wind days here and there, but even then by about 3PM the wind will pretty much be gone. I don't mind being out in the heat of the summer but most of the time the wind situation means I'll be on the golf course instead of flying.

So a larger size FB might actually be a good bet then given my size huh? You think maybe 6.8-8M?

My 8.6 gets me rolling well in 4-6 mph on grass but I'm 210lbs

I would look for a reactor or a bego for low wind

There are plenty of places I can go but none that will realistically be any better for kite flying. I'm about 7 hours from the Pensacola/Destin area on the gulf coast of Florida. If I road trip it's to mountain bike because it's a manageable distance, unlike what it is for kiting, unfortunately.

I'm hoping to get to at least "try" one of BigKid's 8M Soulfly's that he was thinking about passing around as demos...that might help give me a clearer direction. It sounds that in fact FB is actually my best option. Thanks for the input Mogul.

AnnieO, I have been teaching my son and some of his female friends from high school to fly. The first thing we found out is that....girls hips and divine harnesses don't mix. They also have had trouble with the PL Radical harness. I have purchased a couple of Mystic harnesses for the girls to use. They are an 09 Mystic Warrior II and a Mystic Blazer harness like you can see here....http://www.live2kite.com/mystic-blazer-waist-harness-p-961.html.

They are not seat harnesses and do not have leg straps. I do know there is a blazer harness that does have leg straps and I think that one would work.

The Mystics that I have seem to run a tad small. The girls are in the 110-115 pound range and use a size medium. I got the small and had to return for the medium.

I have not been able to talk them into getting active on the forum yet, I think that is do to my son telling them it is mostly old people out here.....

They have flown my Flysurfer Pulse II 8m and my arcs. They all prefer the arcs. They like that they can just let go of the bar and the kite goes to the zenith when they want a break or wipe out. We are still working on relaunch technique.

We take a leaf blower with us to inflate the 19m on the light wind days that we fly in. The 19m will get them moving in 6mph to 10mph wind on ATB, coyotes, skis or snowboard. Since my son bad mouthed buggy riding and doesn't like it none of them will try it. I can get rolling in the buggy on grass with the 19m Venom in about 8mph wind and I am 200 pounds.

Arcs are great but, as with any depower it would be great if you had someone to show you the ropes. I think the kids would also like the Flysurfer Viron. I am planning on adding one of those to my quiver for my 10 and 11 year old to fly. Since there big brother won'f fly FB's anymore they don't want to.

The Unity is also a great kite to consider. It is very beginner friendly and relaunch is very easy. When you crash it will just float to the edge of the window and sit there for you.

In my opinion a Unity or an arc would be your best bets. The Unity also has great depow. The Unity also has a bit less grunt than the equivalent Pulse II which the Unity replaced. The Unity's bridal system is also cleaner than the Pulse II's.

Both the Unity or an arc can take you land, snow or water.

A 13m Venom II would be an awesome starter for an arc and I think a 10m Unity would be OK in that line as it has less grunt than the Pulse II did and greater depow.

These are just my opinions....... I am sure others will chime in.

Myself I would go for the 13m Venom II. If you can ever catch a video of the way Phree can work that kite in lower winds and get moving you would be amazed. It also has an excellent wind range so if the wind picks up on you, you don't have to put it away.......

But at those low wind speeds your talking.........you will be doing lots of work to get anything going. I should have waited for the wind speed response.....or asked the question.....I got old timers...lol

I thought you said low wind....... not no wind

You could try the new 24m Phantom II...................it might fly down to 5mph

I like the idea of an arc given the versatility. Even though it's hard to admit, in reality I suppose, kiting won't be much of an option here during most of the hot summer months. The arcs you describe sound perfect for the fall, winter, and especially spring! I'll have to start doing my homework and maybe start looking for a used arc. I just wish I had some kite people around to show me the ropes but I've made this far on my own and i like a challenge...

AnnieO....ask around.....check things out.....as you are already doing......the thing I learned the hard way teaching myself to fly arcs was starting to small...... I started with an 8m and it beat the crap out of me. This was due to a couple of factors. The high winds needed to fly it. The gusty area I live in. My total lack of experience with arcs and knowing anything about them...... I can say thanks to reading and research on the forum and the arc faq sheet on Angus' website I had a very successful first launch with no issues on the first go. The bad news is that that dang kite was so fast I was not ready for how fast it would turn and how fast it would move when a gust hit it. I got superman'd many times by my 8m Venom II.

I learned from flyjump that you should start in the 13m range. Once I moved up and started working this size I caught on really quickly. When I am working with the high school kids I usually start them on either a 13m Guerilla II or a 13m Venom II. These kites have great range, can fly in lower winds so they can get the hang of it and the auto zenith has saved my kites from abuse as much as it has helped the kids out when they are learning.

On another note.....my area is a lot like your in the summer.....real low winds. I had a 8.3m Reactor and a 10.8m Reactor II. The big RII would fly in a gnats fart but it was a lot of work and even more work to try to ride something in those low to non-existent winds. I learned my lesson.....when I do get a good summer day I get out there, but they are few and far between.

Check out videos by Phreerider, Carltb, Feyd, Flyjump and the list goes on.......in regards to arc flying. Carltb has some great how to videos on youtube for setup, flying, landing and relaunch as well as many tricks and such on the ATB.

The 13m VII is a phenom kite but may be hard to track down as those that have them usually don't let them go......

I love my 19m Venom in low winds. Even the lightest girl at 100 pounds has flown it in 5 to 10mph wind on ATB......it is a gentle giant.......

Anyway.....check things out........I really think an arc or a Flysurfer Unity is the way to go.....IMHO......

I will chime in with "bladerunner's" mantra... if there isn't enough wind to inflate an arc then there isn't enough wind to have a decent ride...

At our park in the summer we all ride FB foils except bladerunner. While we are all having a blast, bladerunner is still messing around with an arc. (sorry k2)

We had a 15 speed 3 here for a demo and in the really low wind the FB's won out..

My 2 cents,

Ron

RonH....I agree, although we do bring a battery operated leaf blower to speed things up with the 19m.....she will inflate in 5 to 7mph of wind but it takes some time.......

Here is a 19m launching in 6mph and a buggy ride at 8mph in the snow..... we forgot the leafblower that day.....



That is my 120 pound 16 year old at the controls in the beginning.....

If you can come up with a bar... I'll make you a deal on a larg arc for those light wind summer days....

I'm open to any ideas and will entertain anything that people more experienced can offer for sale kite-wise. I believe that a depower is more than likely in my future anyway, but I'll still need one suited to favor the lower end as my area doesn't have regular nuking winds even as winds pick up after the hot summers. I'm sure I could source a decent bar set-up if I have to.

For those low winds definitely go with FB!

You want to try De-power though! specially if you are planning on land-boarding.
Shred your Credit Cards before you do. That's when it gets expensive. And you will want lots more kites than what you have/want know!

Pansh Ace 12m OMG it'll rip your arms off and make your forearms explode :D
Blade3 8.8 or whatever it was, was a pretty good low-wind kite too ...

Oh, depower ... Flysurfer? HQ Matrixx?

Feyd is usually a good place to start a hunt for a good used bar for arcs.......I am fresh out......

The only arc I have available is a big ole 20m Bomba......super float......super grunt......but you better have at least a 60cm bar and a strong arm to turn it.....

Bomba's are not fast turners......may not be a bad thing for learning.....but a 20m Bomba is a huge kite and probably not a good one to learn on......even though it launches easy enough.......

IMHO the Venom's, Venom II's and Synergy's are probably the easiest arcs to learn on.......arcs for a newbie to stay away from until they got some flight time under their belt.....1st Gen Phantoms and Scorpions......both are awesome kites.....but both have a tendency to bowtie at launch.....very frustrating for someone trying to learn and figure arcs out........

Once you get it down the Phantoms and Scorps are great kites......the Scorps do have a tendancy to leak air and need to be max inflated at launch......but once up and moving they have some of the best vertical boost out there......

If you could grab a 19m Venom or Venom II and a 13m Venom or Venom II and one PL 60cm bar and line set you would have an awesome 2 kite quiver that will just about cover all the wind range you would run into.......

No bridles to worry about on arcs either........

but.....as you can tell.....I have gone over to the d'arc side of kiting.....so take it with a grain of salt.... don't know where your located but if you can hook up with someone one time and fly one you will be hooked......

a bit more arc spam and I am out.......






did I say I love these kites????

I am real pleased with the 18m Phantom. Once inflated I can get it to fly on almost no wind and keep it going on apparent wind. Unfortunately I can't force a ride out of it until over 6mph.

The 18m Phanny has been the best launching arc I have had by far ! All of my othere arcs have given me issues with that final bit of fill. No bow ties or inverts yet !! ??

For 0 - 6mph and room to move my 10.8 Reactor II is my go to kite. I am not large and find I can get overpowered if I don't check my speed on the 10.8.

You are fortunate to have low winds. It's a great opportunity to improve kite skills.

My advice relates to the buggy.

For inland flying I used double or triple line lengths. This increases power no end as the kite has to take longer to travel across the power zone producing more torque. Plus an added benefit of longer lines is better stall recovery as the kite has more altitude .

You will have to manipulate the kite continuously to wring out every last ounce of horse power.
This means down-looping the kite, not only when turning to head back in the other direction but use down-looping to continue on your present course, you will lose only a small amount of ground in doing so but you'll speed up to regain it soon after and boosting you further upwind and into profit.

You can't expect to park and ride the kite. The kite will punish lazy riding.

I'd choose a kite that has the ability to move through the air quickly with minimum drag, therefore a medium sized race kite would be best. Most will say avoid race kites for inland flying but there are some low drag race kites out there that are very stable, Gin Tonkawa and Libre Bora for instance.

Anything larger than 5m may not be agile enough to stay afloat for long.

You can use the buggy to control the power in the kite too. You don't want to pull too hard against the kite in those conditions especially at low speeds. Let the kite breath a little. Pull hard only on the down loop.

Avoid up-looping the kite right at the edge of the window, a sure fire way to loose momentum and stall.
Gravity wants to pull the kite down so go with the flow.

First try turbo charging your 5m Blurr before buying a new kite.

1) First up on the Grand Turismo of kite tuning should be a 40m line set. This should be standard line length for flying inland anyway.

2) Combat speed lines produce far less drag and will cancel out the effect of extra length, they are stronger than your usual lines although they are kind of brittle and don't link to be twisted too many times but they are the mutts nuts, so source those out.

3) Power rings prevent the brake lines from bowing out and tugging on the trailing edge, get a pair of those too.

4) AAA - adjust for upwind performance.

With those mods your Blurr will sing and will be light wind capable, more powerful, faster and more aggressive.


Here's me showing off in 0-5mph wind in 2008. I had it set up on just 18m lines from a previous beach session, so down looping produced much less power and meant occasionally hitting the ground.

I've uploaded it specially for you.


[video]http://youtu.be/36PxUkNxaIs[/video]

Okay, so that didn't work. Try this link instead....

Linkage

here it goes Tom...

Ah, thanks dude. You must teach me how to do that.

Just re-read my post, damn I sound smug. :embarrased: I had too much free time last night.

Thanks guys, you are great! I really appreciate the help with all the considerations I would have otherwise not realized...

Not smug and a very good point. You have turned me on to something I have always known but somehow have been ignoring.

There are 2 different ways of dealing with the low winds. The " lazy " way, large park and ride foil requires a lot of room. Then the good old " work " the kite method. I have drifted from foils a bit but see good examples of both styles used locally. Scudley, D'sliddy and Ron all do this very well ! With our small parks milking a smaller kite is definately an advantage.

I must revisit my 7m Pulse. I found I could milk out an amazing bottom end by spanking that thing around.

If you know how to work it, a 5m fb foil can serve up in an amazing range of wind !

I'll add in that arcs are just the wrong choice for you if the wind is dropping to nothing, then just a little then back to nothing. Arcs are a lot of work if they are rolling around on the ground losing air during your lulls. You would need a large bridled depower like flysurfer or HQ Montana or Matrix in 12 to 14/15m to ride in those winds. Your flight would be much more efficient with as large a Vapor or HQ Prodigy as you can hold on to. I'm thinking 7m or so to start for your weight. With more experience maybe even more kite. The race kites aren't so scary anymore. 5 years ago, they were edge of your seat kites that needed a very experienced pilot to keep them in some form of control and that might still be true when your speeds get really high. In 5 mph winds nothing is going to happen fast so you can work the kite and make power with it. These large race kites are very stable these days and are so efficient, you can run a little circle and fly the kite in a full 360 around you easily. I know I'm going against the grain here, but wanted you to have a little different perspective to think about.

I buggied in 8-10mph with my 6.8 Core. I weigh 210. Hit 23mph too...
(but it was on a beach not a field)

Thanks Bob, as it stands for or good or bad, I've gone ahead and made a deal with RonH for his 8.3 Reactor. I know it's a whole lot of kite but here are a few things I'm counting on:
It's like my Blur, fast and powerful but still very stable and will be responsive to brake input. Second, I will be very careful about the conditions in which it will be brought out, as a last resort really. Third, and lastly, I'm pretty confident with my flying skills at this point, and even though I'm a lightweight I'm fortunate to have a lot of pound for pound strength from many years of fitness competitions and sports. I'll hope my logic will pan out but if not the kite will end up for sale back on here. I'm very excited about getting the "bug" really soon and as you can see I'm making some final preparations...as far as FB kites I don't think I should have any gaps in the quiver now. I still won't rule out a depower at a later date for the seasons when the winds pick up though.

I had one of those and it's a great kite for what you want. You'll need 5 mph with it in grass, but you can lose some wind after you're moving and it will keep you rolling on your apparent wind. It has a great characteristic of a smooth power up when you launch. This one won't superman you in appropriate winds. My only gripe with the original reactors was the very flexible bridle lines and the grappling hook connector. The bridle lines love to grab the connector and it's hard if not impossible to shake it loose. A rubber band might even be enough to smooth out the catch.

Thanks for the tip Bobby, sounds like it's a pretty good choice then. After weighing all the options it did seem to be the best I could do with all things considered and less $ than a depower for now. If I don't have any wind I'll just go back to spending more time on the golf course, it's not like I don't need the practice. :o