Hi all,

I've been reading these posts so many times during the past week: I feel like I almost know some of you! ;-)

Radsail Pro2 4m (£140, €200) (AR=?.?, anybody know?)
Shape looks not unlike a Blade 4m (AR= 5.0)

Beamer TSR 3.6 (£180, €260) (AR=3.2)
Shape looks not unlike a bullet/Rage (AR=3.5)

- I have experience sailing boats and flying 2 string kites including Flexi Power10 stacker.
- I weigh 82kg / ~175lbs.
- Wind speeds average from 20 km/h (Dublin) to 40 km/h (Donegal) http://www.met.ie/climate/malinhead.asp
- I will eventually buy a mountain-board / kite-board once I master the kite. (So am looking for a combination of pull and lift)
- I wouldn't be going out very often: few times a month, thus the low-budget kite choices.

Questions:
1) Any thoughts?
2) Could also go for a a 5m BeamerTSR for €200 (€290). sigh...
3) The bar would be handy on the TSR, but if the Beamer is better I could by a bar for the small price difference.
4) Other kites in that price range? ie: Peter Lynn Pepper 4.5m is only £125 / €180 !? (AR=3.1)

Unrelated question:
The the following exist?.. a cheap-esqe closed-cell foil that can be used in water as well on land.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! ;-)
Hopefully I be able to hold back on my urge to order a foil until I get a 2nd opinion from the pros!

TIm

Both are fine beginner kites, but if you are looking for the most bang for your buck, the Radsail is the hands-down winner. Beamers are very stable, but are such a low aspect ratio, they produce virtually no vertical lift. To some beginners stability is THE MOST important thing, Frankly, I find Beamers Kinda boring. (Heck, you'll get better lift from the 4m Radsail than from the 5m Beamer)

Now about this "BAR" thing...

If you want to learn how to really control a kite (particularly if you plan on boarding or buggying) You need to learn how to fly a Quad-line on HANDLES, not a bar!! You'll get way better performance, and you'll learn to grasp concepts like "braking", "upwind trim", controlled landings, etc...

About the closed-cell foil for water and land?...

When they try to make a kite that does both, they end up doing both BADLY!!! Closed cell foils tend to be very sluggish and slow, making them a really lame land kite. And when they get wet, although they don't sink, they tend to be next to impossible to relaunch!! That makes them a lousy water kite. Stick with an LEI on the water, and an open/semi-open foil for land. In addition Closed-cell foils tend to be more expensive, so you're probably better off spending your money on a decent used LEI and an open foil. That way you'll have 2 good kites instead of one crappy one.

Thanks for the reply Bucky.

yeah - i've read mixed sides on the tow-bar vs. handles debate. (ie: some say the bar can be nice for landboarding...)
Personally, I'm more concerned at the overall performance/cost of the foil. So yeah, if the RadSailPro foil is nicer and saves my 60 euro to boot, couldn't be better! ;-)

Since my post, I've continued researching...
Geez - I wish there were as many kite-klubs in Dublin as there are in the UK or USA.
Ideally, flying one of each would be worth 1000 words and would add some empirical practical knowledge to some of the 'on-line' science...

Have to rely on you guys this time i'm afraid! ;-P

Quote:

Originally posted by Bucky About the closed-cell foil for water and land?... When they try to make a kite that does both, they end up doing both BADLY!!! Closed cell foils tend to be very sluggish and slow, making them a really lame land kite. And when they get wet, although they don't sink, they tend to be next to impossible to relaunch!! That makes them a lousy water kite. Stick with an LEI on the water, and an open/semi-open foil for land. In addition Closed-cell foils tend to be more expensive, so you're probably better off spending your money on a decent used LEI and an open foil. That way you'll have 2 good kites instead of one crappy one.

Im sorry, but that is crap, look at the peter lynn arcs, they are used for both land and water, and are far from slugish and slow and are far from bad kites

Hey Jim,

One common kite that came up in other forums was the Flysurfer Pulse, say the 10.0m (which is something like 5.5m 'perceived'). However, the kite with harness, etc, is listed at around 1200 euros! :-/
It is a closed foil, and sort of a pseudo-arc.

Tim

Just found this obscure? kite that is closed cell and a bit more affordable at £380 / €530:
http://www.kitedynamics.co.uk/viokite-proteus.asp
Now if I can half the price again! ;-)

The beamer 5.0m is a great kite hands down for begginers, very stable kite in low winds and easy to fly, but not good for high speed or lift i feel it dosent do very good in upwind buggying, the radsail is also a great kite, but it just dosent have the same pull as the beammer , just my opinion,
:singing:

thanks! so in the sub 200 euro / 140 pound range,
i guess i'm still left with the decision to go for the Beamer TSR 4m or the Radsail 4m...

The TSR Buster is 230 euro / 160 pounds...

Hey Jumping Jim, I read you comment about my comment and all I have to say "oh ya?... OH YA?!?.... Well..... Actually your right.... Peter lynn ARCs kick ***!!!! I'm so used to thinking of them as LEIish kites that I didn't consider them. Technically, they ARE foil kites (though possibly not in the traditional sense of the word) Their design is kind of a hybrid of the aerodynamic features of traditional foils, and those of traditional LEI's Plus as an added bonus, they have the ability to self-center. Let go of the bar, and the kite naturally drifts to 12 o'clock! How cool is that!!!

Thanks for setting me staight. I like think I'm a big enough man to admit when I got it wrong.

Now to DON321.... ON WHAT PLANET!!!!????!!!

Lincoln Town-cars are really nice, very plush. But you don't normally hear anyone say "and they're more nimble than a Miata!" (Maybe a completely overblown comparison, but it gets to the point)

Beamers... Light wind performance? Yes. Stability? Yes. More pull than an equally sized Radsail?? When, Where, How?!?!?

Low AR (aspect ratio) = stability, light wind performance. Also, they = low power build-up, and bad lift. Beamers have to be one of the lowest AR kites currently in production!!

Get on-line and just look up the profile of a Beamer compared to Radsail. You tell me which one has such a low AR that it looks like you're flying an inflatable queen sized matress.

Don't get me wrong, Beamers are great starter kites. They are recommended for beginners specifically because of their low power performance and stability.

Granted, Radsails are by no means high performance kites, but their higher AR does give them a much more pronounced powerup ability then a Beamer. The down side.... Less stable, more jerky in gusts, etc... Its not a matter of style or taste, its aerodynamics.

Prove me wrong, and I'll glady admit it. But to be honest, I can't think of a single one of my kiting buddies that would agree with you (even the several that own Beamers)

didnt mean to have a go mate, sorry if you took it that way, its just how good are arcs

Oh ya... About the "Viokite" and the "Flysurfer" Those are the combo type kites I was originally refering to when I said "avoid".

Also the Jojo "Rage" (which I own a 12m) I got mine for next to nothing (sub $100) used, so I can't complain. But it is slow and sluggish. Supposedly based on an RM, but an RM it definately AIN"T An absolute #@%$#! to get inflated and into the sky!! Super narrow wind range. (only a few knots difference between not enough to get it into the sky, and to much to be usable!!) I still take it out every now and then, if for no more reason than that it absolutely dwarfs every other foil in the sky!! (except for when a guy I know take out his 14m RM! Damn! Steal my thunder!!)

I also own a Advance "IO" which is another combo. Its actually a pretty cool kite! Its pretty zippy and very plush feeling. (of course all of that goes away the second you get it wet!!)

Hey Jumping Jim, No worries. I read your reply and went OOPS! Oh ya. I forgot about them. Thanks for the correction. You absolutely right about the ARCS, they are hellagood. The Peter Lynn reps came out 2 summers ago to the big kite fest. here in Seaside, Oregon, and were demo-ing some of the ARC's I tried one out (I think it was in the 14m range) and thought it just kicked butt!! They are definately on my wishlist. I can't believe I'd forgotten about them. Thanx again for reminding me!!

hey bucky........

DID YOU SEE IN THE END OF MY POST WHERE I PUT "JUST MY OPINION" ?
JUST COMMENTING ON MY OPINION OF THE TWO KITES BEING TALKED ABOUT........ I DONT GET INTO THE TECHNICAL B.S. W/ KITES JUST WANNA BUGGY AND LIVE TO TALK ABOUT IT........ :singing:

I STILL THINK THE BEAMER IS A GREAT KITE..... JUST MY OPINION:o
BUT THERE ARE OTHER KITES OUT THERE THAT ARE BETTER !!! (YOU WILL JUST HAVE TO SPEND MORE MONEY)

Lads,

I started another post, but it didn't really pick up.
So far we have seen the pros and cons of the new BeamerTSR versus the Radsails.
How would the Radsail compare to the new PKD Buster II?
For example:

PKD BUSTER II 4 (£136 / €196)
Proj=3.2m, AR=3.36, ARproj=2.3, Adj.Brid/AOA, Force=2.5 - 5.0.

Eolo Radsail Pro II 4m (£155 / €224)
Proj=?.?m, AR~3.6?, Blade designer. Poor spanish website. Force 2.5 - 5.0.

HQ Beamer TSR 3.6m (£179 / €260)
Proj=?.?m, AR=3.2, bar (debate-able pro), adjustable bridle

- - -
The PKD BusterII has a slightly larger Aspect Ratio to the Beamer.
No-one knows the exact spec of the Radsail. And their website is diabolical.
Has anybody flown the new PKD BUsterII yet?
I'm itching to buy it! ;-)