Don't know anyone involved, but thought it would be a good thing to share. Even though winter has arrived, I suspect that it will require a few good weeks of cold weather before its safe out there.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/2012/11/24/montreal-ice...

What can you say ...horrible. Be safe, use your head.

Whether the ice is usable or not cannot be judged by the calendar, day of the week, time of the day, temperature, the amount of water on top of it, how many weeks you wait for it, etc., etc., but only by its thickness and structure. Some of us have been regularly on the ice since late October. The blanket statements of "stay off the ice" sort are nothing but pure nonsense and are a common expression of icephobia used by moronic politicians to deny access to excellent and convenient locations such as Glenmore Res. in Calgary.

Well I used the title more to point out that its basically been too early in many places for sufficient coverage. Most people know that you have to check the conditions before venturing out on the ice. Unfortunately there is always a story like leaves people wondering what those involved were thinking.

I think the general populace are unaware of what it takes to make "safe" ice. Unless it's part of your daily life why would you? Ice strength depends on so many variables that just aren't even on people's radar. They just assume cold=ice and that's not really the way it works.

It's unfortunate when things like this happen.

I spend most of my waking hours in the winter on ice and I've seen ice do some amazing things, unexpected things and learned a lot about it in the process. Contrary to what Prussik believes I think it's somewhat prudent to use time of year as a baseline for safe ice access. Obviously there are regional variations which I suppose is his point but I think the message Shaggs is going for here is that there is no rush and it's not worth getting killed just to get out on the ice early.


That said, as a kiter for my own personal fun I have pushed the limits off "safe " in the early season. But I dress accordingly and I have a kite that pulls me out when I fall through. Much different than the situation Shaggs shared.

Just very sad!
Heart breaking for there hole family!

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd ... But I dress accordingly and I have a kite that pulls me out when I fall through...

:o Are you speaking from experience?

Not to Hijack the thread but here's an old blog entry about the first time I went through and some theories that were tested.

http://hardwaterkiter.blogspot.com/2010/03/all-stacked-up-la...

I recommend NOT going through the ice if you can avoid it. And the technique described in the blog is for skis not snowboards.

And a little context of that original situation is good as well...

www.montrealgazette.com/news/Grandfather+grandson+after+fall...

This following video is not graphic, it shows the conditions where the accident occurred...

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/raw-fatal-skating-accide...

The grandfather was likely trying to keep the kid close to shore and likely never had a plan if things went wrong. So sorry for those involved.

Ice conditions and risks change from early winter when the ice is forming to late spring when its finaly gone.
Early hard thin ice , probably what these folk encountered.
Mid season has cracks that can open and glaze over , wide enough to fall through (personal experience). Gas bubbles can open 12" thick ice 4-5' diameter (personal experience)
Spring will see some really funky things as water on top flows thru the ice creating thick but weak conditions. Spring can also see thin floaty edges but thick safe ice just a little ways out.
I like 4" and I almost allways drill or chop test holes.

I'm pretty sure that your ice is good to go up at Lloyd. That is for you to check and be confident in.

Guys have been kiting on the ice at Pigeon and Wabamun - around 6" up there.

Check out the fishing discussion on www.outdoorsmenforum.ca for Alberta ice conditions. The only other people crazy enough to want ice are the fisherdudes.

Gotta feel bad for the grandmother who lost both her husband and grandson in one go during what was supposed to be a fun family activity.



Quote:

Originally posted by Prussik The blanket statements of "stay off the ice" sort are nothing but pure nonsense and are a common expression of icephobia used by moronic politicians to deny access to excellent and convenient locations such as Glenmore Res. in Calgary.





Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd I think the general populace are unaware of what it takes to make "safe" ice. Unless it's part of your daily life why would you? Ice strength depends on so many variables that just aren't even on people's radar. They just assume cold=ice and that's not really the way it works.



Chris makes a good point, I don't think it's icephobia so much. Take into account that for every moronic politician, there's more than a handful of moronic constituents with limited survival skills even when they are navigating something no more dangerous than a trip to the big box store. After a certain point, they are just addressing the lowest (think hair dryer in the shower low) common denominator with when providing safety guidelines.

Although it was mentioned in passing in Chris's blog, it was nice to see a mention for a PFD to counter the drag of sodden winter clothes.

Useful info, resources, and links from the Minnesota DNR Website:


1. Cold Facts Ice Safety Podcast (MP3)
   
   
2. Some cold facts about ice
   • New ice is usually stronger than old ice. Four inches of clear, newly‑formed ice may support one person on foot, while a foot or more of old, partially‑thawed ice may not.
     
     
   • Ice seldom freezes uniformly. It may be a foot thick in one location and only an inch or two just a few feet away.
     
     
   • Ice formed over flowing water and currents is often dangerous. This is especially true near streams, bridges and culverts. Also, the ice on outside river bends is usually weaker due to the undermining effects of the faster current.
     
     
   • The insulating effect of snow slows down the freezing process. The extra weight also reduces how much weight the ice sheet can support. Also, ice near shore can be weaker than ice that is farther out.
     
     
   • Booming and cracking ice isn't necessarily dangerous. It only means that the ice is expanding and contracting as the temperature changes.
     
     
   • Schools of fish or flocks of waterfowl can also adversely affect the relative safety of ice. The movement of fish can bring warm water up from the bottom of the lake. In the past, this has opened holes in the ice causing snowmobiles and cars to break through.
   
   
   
3. Danger, Thin Ice! Video Presented by the Minnesota DNR
   
   
   
4. Hypothermia: The Cold Facts (PDF)
   
   
5. Useful Links
   
   • General ice thickness guidelines
     
   • Traveling on ice
     
   • Survival plan - steps for surviving immersion
     
   • Ice rescue claws -Instructions for making and using ice rescue claws
     
   • Using Ice Picks for Self Rescue - Windows Media movie format file (4.6 MB)
     
   • Vehicle escape
     
   • Helping someone else

Note:
Anything like ice claws would probably need to be modified as they would be dangerous in a kite related spill.

Mental Checklist:

• Do you leave a trip plan with someone when you head out?
  
• Is a PFD part of your gear when riding on frozen lakes?
  
• Is your cellphone in the car or on you?
  
• If your cellphone is on you, will is still work after taking an impromptu swim?
  
• Is you car key secured in such a way that it can't be lost if you need to warm yourself?
  
• If someone else has fallen through the ice, do you have a rope or other means to aid them without endangering yourself?
  
• If you take a swim, will you havfe a way to dry yourself and/or a change of clothes.
  
• If your car is unable to provide heat, do you have a means of starting a fire?
  

If all else fails, listen to your inner voice (one more time might be one too many) or your local psychic:



FWIW: No one ever plans for things to go wrong, but when they do it generally happens when you are least prepared and at a frightening pace.

ATB,
Sam

Ohhhhh man that was a great movie.

I watched that vid and judging by the fragments on the surface there is no way in hell that I would go on that ice. Not far anyway and not wothout the support of skis.

Indy's right man the bottom line is that seriously sucks for those involved.

You know, sadly we go through this every year with a post about some poor souls who go through the ice and then we revisit all the ice safety information (thanks indigo and prarie wind ) available on the web. Maybe we should have a permanent sticky thingy about ice safety in the Snowkiting area of the forum? Put all the useful ice safety info in there so people can reference it.


Just a thought.

Good idea, Feyd. Great info Indie.

So Feyd - what's the back scratcher?

Gosh, that's horrible! Like all of these kinda things people need to be careful, concentrate, and take the necessary precautions.

I don't live in a place where there is enough ice to warrant any skating, or kite activities etc. I can't say that I feel i'm missing out if i'm honest. Its a pretty hard landing if thjnfs go wrong. I wouldn't mind having a go at snow kiting. I imagine it's a nice soft landing.

Tim

Our current surface conditions. Not many places have ice here yet. Definately none of our larger areas.

This lake is about 1m deep so she sets up quick and is in a spot that gets limited sun.

A "backscratcher" is an old school ariel ski move that involves jumping, kicking both feet behind you until the tails of your skis touch your back.

When comming out of the hole in th ice it allows you to exit without your skis hanging up on the edge of the hole. You don't want to lose your skis if you've gone through the ice as you need them to distribute your weight on the ice to get back to shore.

Tragic

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd Our current surface conditions. Not many places have ice here yet. Definately none of our larger areas. This lake is about 1m deep so she sets up quick and is in a spot that gets limited sun. A "backscratcher" is an old school ariel ski move that involves jumping, kicking both feet behind you until the tails of your skis touch your back. When comming out of the hole in the ice it allows you to exit without your skis hanging up on the edge of the hole. You don't want to lose your skis if you've gone through the ice as you need them to distribute your weight on the ice to get back to shore.

Love that Picture!!

Actually surprised how long this thread grew. Guys up at the big lakes are reporting 10-15 inches of ice and some places they are driving all over them with big trucks. I'm giving it till the new year then gonna go drill a local lake to see how thick it is. Probably nothing to worry about now, but I'm working and won't have the time till after Christmas anyway. Figure another two-three weeks won't hurt anyway. Bought a new set of GNU Agro bindings that I can't wait to test out for snowkiting.

I got TheKidd and I ice spikes. For those not familiar with the,, they are two handles with a string attached. You run them threw your sleeves and they hang out by your hands. If you are falling through or sliding toward a hole you grab them and hit the ice with them. There is a plastic tube at one end of each with a spike in it. When you hit the ice the tube retracts and the spike digs in.
I saw Snowspider had these last winter and decided we needed a set each as well.
If some one could post a website that would be great.

Dave is smart(and safe). Never seen retractable ones.... like to see pic of those/website.

I always wear ice 'tongs' (set spike handles in sheath) around my neck when I go out on frozen lake. Like putting on a helmet to ride.

Then I chop holes in scattered areas to check ice. (try io fill in holes(a hazard)-water percolating up after breakthrough will seal hole with time automatically).

Other optional safety stuff:
*cell phone in waterproof see-thru bag-you can press and dial through it.
*Whistle
* cut away knife

Maybe some more:wink2::
*self inflating raft backpack+ self inflating paddle!
*stay away From Rocfighter clotheslining you!
* abominable snowman repellent spray or body gel.

Good grab Chris. Looks pretty glassy.

I may want to head north soon if good maybe. Getting tired of waiting for real winter to set up in MA.

I have a lake 6 blocks from me...Last winter s**ked and didn't hardly freeze.

Brian there real name is retractable Polar Picks. The web site is www.icefish.com