I was buggying across a (recently cut) grass park with a ReactorII 3.5 and wanted to slow to turn. The front wheel only slid when I tried to turn upwind. I imagine that grass allows for less traction than some other surfaces. What is the solution?

Thanks,

Tami

Try to change your "line" of travel. Get the kite out a little more ahead of you rather than directly beside you. This will give you a pull more down wind therefore creating less side pull. While you are buggying, make little steering adjustments to find the fastest, less side pulling line, it will be the most fun to run for sure. Using a Reactor II, you should be getting the kite further out front on it's own with little brake input giving it more speed also without out running the kite. It's a fine line, but you will find it. I sometimes spend most of the day trying to find the fastest line of travel, It's fun once you find it!

I just flew my new to me RII 5.5m today for the first time and experienced the same thing... Just goes to show how much power this kite really has.

I kind of enjoyed the sliding,... It was like I was really harnessing the power of the kite and putting it in line.

I don't think I described it very well. The kite was parked in "the spot" or what I think you called finding "the line" at about 11 o'oclock from directly ahead of me, maybe 30 degrees up. I was ripping across the park and running out of park. At that point I wanted to turn upwind to slow down but it didn't matter what I did with the front wheel - it only slipped if I turned it. The buggy was not sliding sideways, the front tire was only sliding if I turned it. The tires don't have much tread and the grass had a lot of cut grass on top. Is weight distribution part of the solution?

Yes, you can allow yourself to hold a bit more power if you either adjust your buggy for more weight on the front wheel and/or lean forward when you are ready to edge upwind to prepare for your turn. Don't be hard on yourself, you might've been pretty well powered and near the limits of your traction in any case.

The issue you are asking about is due nto the fact that your buggy is not tuned, not set up for you.
In simple terms, let me ask you a few questions.
If you buy a new car or a used one, do you adjust the seat? How about the rear view mirrors? Do you adjust the steering wheel?
How about a bicycle? Seat, handle bars?

Now let me ask if you adjusted your buggy. You are too far to the rear of the buggy, and there is not enough weight on the front tire.

I am 5' 3" and had to drill 2 pair of extra holes on the downtube to reach the foot pegs.

Without knowing what buggy you have, can you shift the seat forward and the downtube longer one set of holes? This would extend the rear wheels away from center while adding weight to the front. A half inch can make a huge change in the way the buggy handles. When I adjust my buggy to fine tune it, I move things in quarter inch increments.

Would that be the the yellow strap or the blue strap?:D

Like BeamerBob says, balance is very important. Lean forward and get some weight on that front wheel! You can also (with caution!) try down turns. Instead of turning the kite upwards, dive it! No more need to slow down prior to turn initiation. You'll actually speed way up and get whipped through the turn. Just start in light wind, get ready to counter steer, and once the turn has started...COMMIT! I'm pretty new at this but with some guidance from a local, down turns totally transformed my riding style. Be safe and have fun!

That's a small pic but you would have to see if there is a way to shift the seat forward just a bit. A much nicer replacement seat from PL or Van would serve you nicely.

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Yes, you can allow yourself to hold a bit more power if you either adjust your buggy for more weight on the front wheel and/or lean forward when you are ready to edge upwind to prepare for your turn. Don't be hard on yourself, you might've been pretty well powered and near the limits of your traction in any case.

Aside from the side pull that I was describing earlier where my back end was getting pulled sideways, I experienced the same thing, but turning down wind,... I did a down turn and as I was turning my from wheel through the turn, it slid rather than had traction,... I corrected and made my way through the turn, but that was a first for me.

How far forward would you guys recommend moving the seat on the down tube in relation to body size? is there a ratio or formula? How bent are your knees to keep that weight on the front end?

In the beginning there was a big bang and life started, after a long dry spell the buggy was born and you have one of the first buggys. They have changed quite a bit and the seat was one of those things that changed.
You should get a newer seat and after a while a newer buggy and then.........
Sorry got way ahead of the problem. As you can see, and we can also, you are sitting just forward of the rear axle. The center of gravity(CG) is not putting equal weight on all 3 wheels, the rear is carrying about 2/3 of the total. The reason this style of seat is not made any more is it is to hard to move your CG forward. I would suggest a newer seat that can be moved closer to the front tire. To help with your set up, your butt should be in the center of all 3 wheels. At the present set up you are to far back with no weight on the front tire to hold it down while turning.

If you are unable to get a new seat at the moment, I can suggest adding a few sand bags tied to the top of the fork as extra weight for the time being. I have done this in the past to help the owner of a buggy decide the amount of weight that needed to be added to the wheel for his particular circumstance. Start with 2.5lbs, then 5lbs, and 10lbs if needed, not the correct way to go but it will help for now until the new seat comes.

I also have a PL Comp XR+ buggy and Kite trike 3. Thanks for all the buggy tips. Guess I will use a better bug now and pay attention to the CG!

Like the others have said you need more weight on the front. This is accomplished by moving the down tube in towards the rider or moving the seat forward. This is the reason on upper end buggies you will see different placements for the foot pegs. This allows you to move the down tube in but move the pegs away from the rider to keep the same comfortable leg distance but moves the rider closer to the front wheel to add weight without adding weight if that makes sense Moving the seat forward will also do the trick. The only problem here is if you have a buggy with no adjustments the rider may end up extremely uncomfortable.
Adding a tire with tread is not the answer, so dont let someone talk you in to a new tire. I ride grass with slicks and when you have the bug tuned properly they will grab and turn just fine.
Since we are chatting about it the opposite is true. If your rear tires are breaking loose when your trying to go straight you need more weight on the rear. If the buggy breaks loose when your going straight both the front and rear should slide equal. When this happens you are tuned.
Popeye told me one time to test if my buggy is tuned tie a rope to the bumper of my truck and have my wife take off in the truck as I hold the rope with the buggy sideways to the truck ... he said I should slide equal sideways

The antique buggy is just so much easier to throw in the car... Okay, lame excuse.

Which buggy would be better suited to a grass park, the Comp XR+ or the kite trike?

Ratfink: so if all goes as plans, the buggy skids all the way around in the turn so no need to slow??

BeamerBob: I am confused about wanting the downtube longer - for a more stable geometry?

For the future, what buggy is best suited for the dry lakes? Ivanpah? or like yours, BeamerBob? Personal preference no doubt....

Quote: Originally posted by utahtami

BeamerBob: I am confused about wanting the downtube longer - for a more stable geometry?

If you lengthen the downtube it lengthens the buggy. If you counteract that by shifting the seat forward the same amount, you effectively maintain your same riding position but have increased the weight on the front wheel.

Quote: Originally posted by DAKITEZ

Popeye told me one time to test if my buggy is tuned tie a rope to the bumper of my truck and have my wife take off in the truck as I hold the rope with the buggy sideways to the truck ... he said I should slide equal sideways

Dino, if either of us uses the wife driving the truck test method we need to remember to have a safety release!

Would you say then that your sit-bone or backside should be centered between the front wheel axle bolt and the back axle? Or is there a better means to estimate whereabouts to set the seat/downtube?

I'm a pretty systematic and analytical kind of person, can you tell?

You can't measure it. You have to adjust and test it. Did the adjustment improve the balance? Would more be better? Every test poses the question.

ultimately the buggy is tuned when you are overpowered with the kite and all 3 tires break free at the exact same time. I personally set mine up to have the front break free a split second before the rear does, that gives me a split second to react before the buggy is totally out of control.

You can do the same without being overpowered by turning upwind while trying to slow down at a rather good speed. Remember to mark the beginning positions of the buggy parts so you know where you have been and how far not to revert to.

Quote:

Or is there a better means to estimate whereabouts to set the seat/downtube?

Chook suggested to me that he watches his tracks on the beach....if your front wheel begins to slide out, you're too close to the front. If your back wheels slide out first then you're too close to the rear end. Move the rear end too far back and the front starts to slide out.

I like the opposite of Jeff - I want my rear to start to slide out just before the front. It also depends on the kite - my Nasa's pull much more from the side so that influences how I set up my buggy.

I do all this in a straight line on the beach. And I'm talking about center of pull, not center of gravity. If the whole bug starts to slide sideways when you're over powered, then you've got the center of pull just right.

However, if you're sitting in the shed or under a tree and use a block and tackle to pull you and the buggy straight up, you might find that the front or rear comes up first - so you're center of gravity is out. If I was jumping, I think I'd want the center of gravity to be pretty close, but as I don't jump, I want the center of pull in the right spot. In my case, center of pull and center of gravity don't match (without adding weights). It would be ideal if they did....

HaHaHa, John, you are the man. You are right, I need to get some sleep.
I set up my buggies to break free in the REAR First. Not the front as I said before. When the front breaks free you have lost all control.

And your right about the kites. Race kites sit farther forward than beginner kites, thus changing your CG.
If you tune your bug with a Beamer, flying a Vapor will change everything and the bug is no longer tuned.
Same goes for the arks and depowers.
Might be why all the guys that race, set up their bugs with the kites they race with and dont fly an assortment or collection of kites.

You are correct, sir! Ride along as usual. When you are ready to make your turn, dive the kite and begin turning it in the opposite direction of buggy travel. Like in an "upward" turn, don't turn your buggy at first. I usually start my buggy turn when the kite is in about the 4 o'clock position. Continue turning and keep focused. Sometimes things REALLY speed up. There's a strong likelihood your buggy WILL slide at this point. That's ok, in fact, quite fun! Counter steer as needed. One reason for the extra speed and possible slide is that once your kite is completing its turn and starting to climb once more is it flies right through the power zone. Please note that once this turn is complete, your lines will be crossed. You have a few options. Just fly with them crossed until you make your next "down" turn , where they'll uncross. If flying on a bar, spin it. Or, my person favorite, loop the kite in the opposite direction, right in the power zone, once your turn is complete. Doing that can result in a ton of power, longer power slides, or worse. Again, if you're going to try this, please do so cautiously at first, in low wind conditions. While learning this I have turned the buggy over a few times and had a pretty ugly OBE (it was fun though). The stuff about balance these other guys are talking about is really important too. I ride a Peter Lynn Comp XR+. At 6' I have my down tube in the short position as it greatly helps keep the front end planted. The rear end does in fact break early, but that's what I want for the moment. Also, as I ride, I'm constantly moving my upper body all over the place in order to distribute weight where I need it. Hope this helps. Let us know how you get along with all this advice.

Quote:

If you tune your bug with a Beamer, flying a Vapor will change everything and the bug is no longer tuned.

Very true as the race kites fly so much further forward in the window, into wind.

I check my wheel tracks in both directions down the beach before fiddling with the set up. It's a bit of a compromise to suit you personal taste.
I'm on 21" Kenda beach racers and tyre pressure also makes a big difference. Back end first for me though.

Quote: Originally posted by utahtami

The antique buggy is just so much easier to throw in the car... Okay, lame excuse. Which buggy would be better suited to a grass park, the Comp XR+ or the kite trike? Ratfink: so if all goes as plans, the buggy skids all the way around in the turn so no need to slow?? BeamerBob: I am confused about wanting the downtube longer - for a more stable geometry? For the future, what buggy is best suited for the dry lakes? Ivanpah? or like yours, BeamerBob? Personal preference no doubt....

To bring this discussion back to Her second question:
Both the XR+ and the KiteTrike are very capable bugs. The PL has a better reputation due to more of us having them and being familiar with them (and aftermarket solutions -eg VTT side rails and AWOC backrests). For those of you unfamiliar with the KT it is a variant of the classic FlexiFoil bug, one of our old school regulars here in Denver has one. I think the PL has more fore -aft seat adjustment but the KT has more rail height for side pull support. Can you tell us the length from tire center to tire center across the axle and then the distance from the axle to the hub of the front wheel? From there whichever one you can get the seat "most centered" (center point of the triangle formed by the wheels) will be the best fit and balance.

As to "best for the playa" that is probably as you say a personal preference but from the buggy developments there are two schools of thought. Equilateral triangle as described above and as examples by the Stinger/ Apex/ MG and isoclese (I think that is the right one) which is a bit "taller" than wide (wheelbase greater than track) which aids straight line speed and allows a bit more power to be held down at the cost of some balance and maneuverability. At the end of the day it is horses for courses.

I measure the KT as 48" across the back center to center and 47" back axle to front hub.

That strikes me as a good balanced triangle so now we just need to get you in the center of that triangle which should be the balance point and get you at or pretty close to the "all three wheels break free at the same time' [or slightly earlier at the back for reaction ].

The location of your hips in the buggy should be equidistant from all three wheels. The calculations are complicated if you are still flying "arm-strong" rather than harnessed. "Armstrong" flying will move your pull point around by the length of your arms while the harnessing keeps the pull point constant and puts the handles along that vector.