I've been trying to sell one of my kites to fund the purchase of something in a 3m size for use in the buggy. For a while I was pretty sure I wanted to get a 3m Toxic, but I keep reading a lot of good things about the Ozone Octane.

Here is my thinking in regards to quiver arrangement. I have Reactor II's for my bigger sizes because I know they handle the lighter wind a great deal better than other kites. However in my smaller sizes I have lower aspect ratio kites because the wind here is really skittish when it's blowing above 14mph, so I figure a more stable kite will fare better in the higher winds. I had considered a Toxic as I said, but am thinking about an Octane instead, mostly because of the better price and all of the positives I'm hearing.

My concerns about Octane however are:
A. How does it do upwind?
B. Will I be satisfied with it, or is it too much of a "beginner" kite?

Pro's:
A. Price
B. I can hand it to a newb without worry (most of my kites are not necessarily "newby" friendly) it would be nice to have a kite to show someone the ropes with and not worry about their safety as much
C. Great stability
D. I'm just hearing a lot of good stuff

Give me your thoughts, those of you that have experienced the Octane and tell me more about it. I really liked rtz's review, but I'd love some more opinions.

Just curious why your Viper isn't a pretty decent " intro " kite ? The little experience that I have had with larger sizes makes me look at them as a very stable and somewhat safe model ?

That said, Having a nice safe intro kite in your bag is a real great thing to have !
Having a nice safe kite when dealing with survival type winds is also a real +.

Sorry but I can't help with Octane experience.

The Flow was a better beginner kite compared to the Octane. The Octane is a better intermediate kite. Although it could be used in strictly lighter conditions for a beginner. The Flow was just noticeably more tame in higher winds. The 3m in some wind is savage and raw. You won't outgrow or tire of this kite particularly in this size. Be careful with it and warm up to it as far as going out in higher and higher wind with it.

I think this is what happens to me with it:

I'm out with the 2m. The wind is slacking so I'm starting to have to really fly it to get around. I go back and get out the 3m. Proceed to fly it aggressively like I was with the 2m and underestimate it's power.

Definitely get it, have it, experience it. I think you will like it and have fun with it.

Just have a beginner only fly it at the low end of it's wind range. It has some serious power and performance at the upper end.

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Just curious why your Viper isn't a pretty decent " intro " kite ? The little experience that I have had with larger sizes makes me look at them as a very stable and somewhat safe model ?

Great question, BR... It didn't occur to me to address that,... Viper is a great intro level kite, but only being 2.6m I always find it just really needs a little more wind to really get moving... That said it is a high wind MONSTER!! Wind in the upper teens gusting over 25mph a week back had me doing butt scuds almost 100 ft long.

I remember having a 3m Beamer v and getting more out of it in lighter winds, not to mention I've read that Octane has a really good low end.

I'm sure you know, but DirtSlide has a 3m Octane RTF for $200 :o

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=27348

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot

I'm sure you know, but DirtSlide has a 3m Octane RTF for $200 :o http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=27348

Yea, I know... Just have to sell before I buy, so that opportunity may have to pass... I've emailed him though.

Quote:

A. How does it do upwind? B. Will I be satisfied with it, or is it too much of a "beginner" kite?

A: Goes upwind OK should be within a degree or two of something like the Core.

B. Now there's a bag of cats. I seemed to have bucked the trend somewhat and gone really, really low aspect with the Nasa Stars - super easy cruising and easy to get along with. Most folks seem to go the opposite way and end up with Vapors/Toxics or Flysurfers. Octane sort of treads the middle ground - which is maybe what you want....maybe not. But I would have thought a 3m would have been pretty close to your 2.6m Viper and a 4m would just be duplicating your Core. So I think I'd come down on the side of no, you don't want an Octane. Maybe time for a depower?

I have the 2m Octane and while I think it's quite ok, it doesn't particularly excite me. Much prefer my 3m Method - but the Method has no bottom end as such and needs 16 knots or more. Just as easy to handle as the Octane but a bit faster and a bit wider window. But it too, is probably really close to your Viper.

An Ozone Access 6m XT would be a very handy kite to have. Or a 2.5/4m NS 2 - which providing you don't run them into anything sharp, you won't be able to break 'em.

I guess the question is 'what do you want to do that you can't do with your current quiver'......

The 2.6 viperS being a little higher aspect may be comparable to the 3m octane.
Iit seems to me like you would have a lot of overlap

Might want to put some stock into what JH said about a depower. You did also mention that the wind 14+ tend to be less than ideal. The stupid stability and ease of an apex/access just may be worth a look...I'm very happy that checked them out.

Quote: Originally posted by martinipro

The 2.6 viperS being a little higher aspect may be comparable to the 3m octane. Iit seems to me like you would have a lot of overlap

This was my thinking but no Octane experience held me back.

Thanks for the input guys,

I can't afford depower, and frankly, I'm not interested. I'm really wanting to stick with FB for now.

As I said earlier, it really seems to take a little something extra to get the 2.6m going, especially to be useful in the buggy. Honestly the 2.6m is my least used next to the kite I'm trying to sell. I understand that the Octane has a better low end, which may be more beneficial when handing it over to an inexperienced friend. I understand there will be overlap, but that's not a major concern... The "I want that" factor has a little to do with it as well.

In an ideal world if $$ was not an issue, I would rather have something more in the 6.5-7m range. Since that's not the case, I'd like to get something in the 3m arena, and this seems like a good option.

rtz seemed to hit on my biggest concern, will it continue to hold my interest?

As to the question of AR, Vipers have an AR of 3.75, where if I remember from past research, Octane has an AR of 3.65 (same as Core) so it's reasonably the same. So in spite of any expected overlap inherent in size similarity, I do think there will enough of a noticeable difference.

Actually doesn't the Viper have an AR 3.8-3.9?

ref: http://www.coastalwindsports.com/ChoosingAKite.html

The viper is 3.8
The octane looks to be more like 3.5 or so but I haven't seen the actual number published anywhere.

I would have expected a both to have a very similar low end but haven't flown them side by side to know.

I guess I was off on the Viper's AR... I Checked the PL website... I just remembered it wrong. However when I was looking into the Octane I requested that info from Ozone and recall them saying it was 3.65... PL Core is 3.6 to 3.75..., I just got my numbers all mixed up. You're right Martinipro ozone has not published those numbers, and it's possible I'm wrong.

I was initially turned off to the Octane for this AR as it is only marginally above the AR of a Beamer and I was looking for upwind performance. My apologies, I had my info wrong

Just read a bad review and I'm starting to think I may pass after all.

I've been wanting a Toxic, I suppose I just need to be patient and hope my 5.1m Core sells.

Anyone want a 5.1m Core

I might be way off base here, but I would assume the angle that the kite is set/bridled in the factory will have more impact on it's characteristics than it's AR alone would....? Take for instance a Century Soulfly II at 4.7 and a Ozone Method at 4.2 - I felt that the Method sat further forward in the window with less sidepull than the Century but with far, far less overall power than a Century. Yet looking at the AR alone, I would have assumed the opposite. I feel (I don't actually know) that the huge difference between these two kites is more to do with the AOA and how they've been bridled. The point I'm trying to make is don't get hung up on AR numbers 'cos I think there's a whole lot more to how a kite flies.

AoA, as determined by bridles, is by far the dominating factor in the direction of pull characteristic. AR tends to affect more the max. kite speed.

Thanks for the input Prussik, I knew AoA was a part if the equation, but I was under the impression that upwind ability was dependent on a combination of both of those factors,... Am I wrong about that?

A higher aspect kite will cut farther up into and fly faster into the window .

Bridling not only effects the AOA but also the projected area of the kite.

Add in that lower aspect kites usually have a thinner skin and smoother front end and it all gets sooooo confusing.

It sounds like you want to get this one out of your system ? You only live once ! :dunno:

You want this kite to help others . That is kite Karma and a good thing. For that reason I say go for it !

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

It sounds like you want to get this one out of your system ? You only live once ! :dunno:

I think I've decided against the Octane... the motivating factor was the price being lower... Lower purchase price means I can drop the price of my kite for sale which means I can get something new faster... I need to be patient, someone showed interest in my Core but will have to wait, so that just means I need to wait. I've wanted a Toxic for a while and I just need to be more patient.

LOVE my Toxic. If you are looking for something with great upwind, those kites are the right direction to look. It is extremely stable for a high aspect kite. I cannot vouch for the smaller versions, but I know my 8m will overfly if I let it, which basically means you get all the upwind you want.

Thanks Demo... I've decided to get a a Toxic in the 3m size, but have to wait to sell something first...

Wanna buy a 5.1m Core for a great price?!?!?!

It's a super buggy kite, and will probably way outperform your 5m Tensor.
www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=27224

Thanks for the subtle hint , but for higher winds than I can handle on the Toxic, I usually get out the 12m instead. HUGE wind range. I have flown it on the buggy in close to 30mph gusts and although I felt very overpowered, I still felt in control of the kite the entire time. My Toxic is usually my sub 15mph engine, and the Charger is anything over that short of Storm winds.

Edit- The Tensor is basically the girlfriend's kite now. She loves to static fly it when I am buggying as we only have one buggy at the moment.