just don't forget to send demos out to folks who came up with suggestions...

Lots of great thoughts in here. Really looking forward to learning proper arc etiquette in a few weeks.

mj, thanks so much for adding your opinions here. This is a great question and I appreciated your insight. I'm someone who recently made the decision to update my quiver with newer arcs, despite some of the valid feedback in the thread. I'm very glad I did, as I agree with what's been mentioned about the ch2's.

I can say I go slightly against the grain in that I'm young, I fly only arcs, and I only kite buggy. I'm the 1% of the 1% of the 1%! I do love arcs, and I cut my teeth on the scorpion. I've flown many different arcs but I can say the charger II is by far my favorite. They are the nicest arc to date and the most friendly to new arc flyers. They really are just amazing kites. While not the absolute best in low wind power, I think the ch2 does pack enough low wind power (adjust the straps and your riding style slighty). They can even really excel in low wind when you get those little 'gusts' that describe the on and off again nature of most inland low wind flying. Fly them right and they respond with huge power. Honestly I would rather fly my ch2 in the 4-8 mph range than a foil, having seen firsthand the difficulties of tip collapse. Of course, I'd rather the wind was blowing 10+ and then it's a non-issue anyway.

Arcs for me offer incredible wind range and enjoyment. i can snowkite, buggy, board, and kitesurf all with one kite. They'll give floaty jumps if I want them (I don't), and still provide the one kite, all day expedition riding I love. The really are a bit of the old reliable and consistent, which perhaps is why they don't sell like the new fad kites. But if you want a kite that you can and will still want to fly in a decade, the arc has shown itself to be a clear winner.

Yeah great comments in here. And balloon I bought my Venom a decade ago. And Yes! I am still desperate to fly it!!!

So my comment about there not being a "beginner friendly" arc in the current lineup....is it the Charger 2? Is that a pretty friendly beast in the 10m size? I was considering a smaller arc for slightly higher wind, I'd be scared to take my Synergy or Venom out in over 20mph. Thought about a Phantom 2 but the high speed and higher aspect ratio put me off. Maybe I could consider a Charger 2 10m or even 8m...?

The size of the kite does not equate to clear suitability as a "beginner" kite. For example most people would a say to avoid Chargers in smaller sizes as smaller arcs are considerably faster than their larger counterparts. My first Arc was a 13m Venom which I won in a race. Never even heard of Peter Lynn or Arcs before I won one. Taught myself to fly it and the rest is history. The coveted 8m Venom would be the sweetest arc for learning IMO. Good luck finding someone willing to let one go.:D

Whaaat? You taught yourself Feyd? I thought you said that couldn't be done? :D

Well one thing about self teaching, you learn a lot about what an arc doesn't like!

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Yeah great comments in here. And balloon I bought my Venom a decade ago. And Yes! I am still desperate to fly it!!! So my comment about there not being a "beginner friendly" arc in the current lineup....is it the Charger 2? Is that a pretty friendly beast in the 10m size? I was considering a smaller arc for slightly higher wind, I'd be scared to take my Synergy or Venom out in over 20mph. Thought about a Phantom 2 but the high speed and higher aspect ratio put me off. Maybe I could consider a Charger 2 10m or even 8m...?

Oh yea, imho an 8m charger 2 is such a baby and will fly over 20 in beginners hands very confidently. It likes to fly, and will be a gentle kite. The 10m is probably a better longterm choice ( I guess this depends on your wind conditions), but I have a 6.5, 8, 10 and fly them all. The 6.5 is a super fun kite too because of it's small size.

I don't recall saying that you can't teach yourself. I will say we get a number of clients who are self taught in both the kite and bike end of our business. And the most time consuming part of their clinics with us is un-learning bad habits. At least with a bike the variables are somewhat predictable. Wind offers a wildcard.

Not all "self-taught" are created equally and self teaching only goes as far as your ability to recognize and adapt to the subtle changes and feedback in whatever discipline you're trying to learn. Some people aren't wired that way. Fortunately I am. Locally we have two extreme ends of the spectrum of self teaching. Myself, who has been flying kites on snow for over a decade without incident and the guy just over the border in Maine who lost his life this winter. We live in a riding environment that does not offer much margin for error when "teaching" yourself. This nonsense mindset about not needing professional instruction, is going to get people hurt. How many people got scared off from the sport while teaching themselves? How many have been injured because of a simple mistake that could easily be avoided if they only had some instruction that taught them to avoid the mistake?

There are a number of talented kiters here where I live. Most have learned from riders like myself who are self taught because at the time there were no lessons available. These locals are willing to take others under their wing and guide them as they were guided which I suspect is a pretty common practice. And when they feel that the individual needs more than they can offer they send them to me.

But sometimes people just feel they "have it figured out" and disregard the local's advice. Arrogance, lack of respect for the environment, the gear and the skillset required to fly safely in it is a recipe for disaster.

To learn to do something well and faced with an option of teaching yourself or learning from someone with a skillset considerably higher than yours, the best option is learning from someone else's expertise. Take what they teach you and go from there and you'll be an amazing pilot.

And this all said, not all instructors are created equally. I've heard a lot of horror stories from our students who have had instruction elsewhere and seen some things that just make me shake my head. Things that you could never get away with here in our winds. For some it's a money grab. For me, it's about building solid kite skiers.

If you can really become a top level rider by teaching yourself then by all means go to it. But for the majority of people getting into a sport, lessons are cheaper than an ER visit.

I don't know if your students know, but they are very lucky to have such a knowledgeable teacher.

We've been very lucky to have students that really want to learn. This season we've had amazing clients and I'm sad to see the season come to an end. But I'm really looking forward to next season.

And all this talk about Arcs has motivated me to get back out on 'em. I have a special Arc I've been waiting to play with again. Had a bad experience season before last and haven't flown it since. Got a little hurt and a lot lucky. We have a good idea what the flaw is and how to resolve it just have to implement it ( and grow the grapes to get back on it.) The thing I love most about arcs is the variations on the theme. This kite is a bit of an evolutionary off shoot.

The future of Arc design? No, probably not. But it's an evolutionary variant that I think once we get it fixed it will be a hell of a kite.:o

"How many people got scared off from the sport while teaching themselves?"

I'm probably not far off it. But love it too much to give up yet.

My lack of lessons isn't through arrogance though, it's lack of arc lesson availability. I could go and get LEI lessons on water, but they won't help me on my arcs.

Hopefully I'm getting there having to teach myself...

Watching a lot of Youtube videos that Carl made, helps a lot on the motivational side!
Besides that, he has some older videos explaining some kite handling stuff.
I have seen them all and had to teach myself, as I explained in our U2U communication earlier.

After a couple of sessions I tried and succeeded doing my first stall landing, like Carl showes in:

Making an Arc in lighter material will win some on the low end of things but the big disadvantage will be vulnerability, likely leading to more crash damages. This of course has a lot of effects; getting it repaired (where? not a lot of kite repair centers worldwide handling Arcs), after repair resale value, warranty claims we will have to deny as crash damage isn't warranted, you can imagine the rest of the story.

That said, there has been a lot of testing here with a new fabric, and it is promising to say the least so maybe it can be a custom option in the future.

As for a small'ish trainer Arc, we have experimented quite a lot with this and the basic conclusion thus far is that it is next to impossible to make it stable and friendly enough for teaching purposes. (or at least that is what I've gathered from the discussions about it, see if I can reignite the discussion here at the office)

To get schools to use them sounds easier than done, first the school will need to be convinced and that would mean sending free demo kites which they will need to fly for more than one hour/session. As we all know, someone used to LEI will find it very difficult to get in tune with an Arc and get out of it what it has to offer.
If we're lucky to find a school willing to stick with it and put the time in to flying them, the instructors are going to need re-schooling too.
(As far as I know IKO doesn't do Arc specific training, it's all LEI)

Most people, including school owners still think Arcs are more expensive than LEI's and unfortunately, in the case of schools, they are
We simply can't offer school the same sweet deals (almost at cost) as the big LEI brands can.
(Twinskins at near cost is just impossible for us, especially far overseas)


Video, there are plans to do something with Twinskins to put them on the map again, we do still have teamriders using them, Carltb probably the most prominent especially on this forum. And couple others that know how to rock a Charger.

Like this guy, not on the team but close enough:

IKO Arc instruction. The only way the IKO would be interested is if it would be profitable for the IKO. And if it was anything like their Snowkite support was it would be too limited to be much use.

Thanks for the input Marijin,

If old folks who likes a mellow kite that you can turn on and boost " old school " on demand are who you see as a major player in the arc game then I understand why I like my arcs so much. That is exactly what and who I am. It pleases me greatly to here that the arc will stay in the PL line up for a while longer.

It is interesting how the demographic has changed since I started in the sport. When I started out I was amazed to find that the majority of kiters were older. It appears the average age has dropped steadily and now the young " whipper loopers " are the ones spending the money. The Charger kind of proved that they aren't the ones looking to the arcs?

If I would like to see anything from a newer arc it would be comparable to a Synergy ( I haven't tried the Charger II ) but with better bottom end. I like the fact you are thinking about a lighter material a lot!

Something I think I am noticing on this forum at least is a lot of pilots took to arcs for their gust munching reputation. + to a lesser degree the auto zenith. They aren't as concerned about boosting big. ( but it's nice that you can! ). These people are starting to explore single skin. Peak and Nasa Star in particular. I get the draw.

robinsonpr,

I fully get what you mean about the arcs intimidating by size. After years of flying them I still find myself wondering why I was all stressed about launching my arc. They thrive on wind and once my balls drop those sessions that I started out stressed usually turn out to be the sweet spot for the kite. The thing with the arcs is to get in motion.

Yeah I'm definitely in the old folk mellow kite bracket :D

Thanks Blade, I know where I'm going wrong after all these discussions with all the arcitypes on here. When I got hurt on my Synergy I was static, and the big mistake was that I took it out in wind that was borderline too low to even fly it. Like you say, they thrive on wind and I need to get over the fact that I can't take it out in a nice gentle 10mph and try and dip my toe in.

I did get moving on my buggy with the Venom and had the beginnings of a light bulb turning on, but the issue with the leash getting twisted on my old 04 bar worried me. Hence my other thread about bar upgrade.

Onwards and arcwards!!

Quote: Originally posted by -mj-

As for a small'ish trainer Arc, we have experimented quite a lot with this and the basic conclusion thus far is that it is next to impossible to make it stable and friendly enough for teaching purposes. (or at least that is what I've gathered from the discussions about it, see if I can reignite the discussion here at the office)

getting it scaled for "trainer wind" would be maddening, light wind and weak pressure , even with ultra light materials, scope and scale would make them something else , really would not be an arc in the end. drag alone would be a huge hurdle...wingtips would be tiny! maybe partial single skin tip and ram air front. definitely challenging!

Good observation Blade. The Peak has replaced Arcs here in part for the ability to handle the gusts (though actively whereas arcs do it automatically) but also because they are better suited to the type of kiting that many of us do here which is touring. A small niche to be sure but one that we are seeing substantial growth in.

I would say that the Charger 2 is on par with the Syn. Maybe a little more refined but it has a very Syn feel to it. Less aggressive than the CH1 It's hell and gone a different feel to the Charger 1 for sure.

Again, this thread is getting better and better. Best reading in a while!!!

Quote:

These people are starting to explore single skin. Peak and Nasa Star in particular

That's me. Arc was great but I was only catching a glimpse of it's true potential due to my wind and riding spots.

Peak and stars are easy and seem better suited to smallish areas and wind that's full of holes.

Still, the right day, it was hard to beat the arc and it's a real show stopper in an area that people never see any powerkites.

Thinking out loud...
To get a trainer size Arc scaling would be out of the question all together, it has to be a completely separate design.
Pepijn doesn't really scale too much, most sizes are a little different than the next, one of the main things is the AR, bigger sizes have a higher AR than the smaller ones, all to keep the individual kites manageable yet fly similar, a painstaking process of finetuning.

Lightweight materials would kinda defy the purpose, lightweight means less crash proof & trainers crash!

Partial single skin tips could be something, like the ears on the older Arcs.
Thinner profile to reduce drag will work as well but then inflation will become trickier, ie. thinner LE less space for inlets, could always put in more inlets though...

Lightwind will always be a challenge in the design, the C shape just doesn't have the projected area, and once you put bridles on it to make it flatter and increase projected area it would lose many of the characteristics that define the design, like gust munching and stability.
Making the center big and the tips small doesn't work either, it has to be in balance otherwise it either won't have upward/lift power through turns or it won't turn at all. (as most extreme example)

So yeah, you've said it Phree, definitely challenging!

Quest for the new T-Arc :D

HEHEHE, I have an idea. Off to Home Depot....:P

the haploid spawn!

I love the Arcs in large part because I feel they are safer than many other kites. Depower is a safety feature. Gust absorption is a safety feature. Simple rigging is a safety feature.

I like the Arcs because they provide higher availability than any other kites I have used. The massive wind range and increased safety mean I can fly one kite longer than any other. I don't have to switch kites to keep flying wind the wind changes. I just slide a little more or maybe a little less.

Whether you are a old or young they are great kites.

Philip

nearly everything I know about kiting was first learnt on arcs....

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

HEHEHE, I have an idea. Off to Home Depot....:P

Haha single skin wing tips! I like it! .... more frontal area and more low end!

Just as someone with some interest but very little ARC experience (only some static flying so far), it seems to me that PL don't really want/need/care to sell more ARCs. They have several LEIs and bridled foils so are protected if the ARC segment shrinks further. When most of the newer riders are hardly aware of ARCs (if at all - my impression), you'd think something different is needed to get their attention. But the only thing PL have is a brief page on their site, that says virtually nothing about the main questions that new customers would have: why, in what circumstances, should they buy an ARC rather than a LEI or foil?

A decent comparative presentation of the ARCs (video clips, documentary etc) would be just a first step. If flying is believing, how could potential customers try one without spending $$ first? If a trainer is not feasible, then maybe a user-friendly, cheaper model is? On the other hand, perhaps it's more profitable for PL to sell LEIs and foils rather than ARCs - I obviously can't tell. (Separate topic: I wonder why PL apparently never bothered to sell ARC inflators, but just let folks improvise their own. How does this help new customers?)

Another problem with ARCs is that only one company makes them. The design would be better served by 2+ competing firms, which perhaps will happen once the twin skin patent expires (or is licensed at reasonable cost). But without some sizeable customer interest first, other companies may choose not to bother with ARCs.

I don't have much speculation to offer, but I have some observation:

Nobody knows what the hell an arc is. Even my local kite shop owner, who I see out surfing often when I buggy the beach, has no clue about them. He got done packing down one day, and stood on the beach for a few extra minutes watching me buzz around. I stopped over near him because my boot had become full of sand. I parked the buggy, trimmed the depower all the way in, and let the bar go up. I unlaced my boot, dumped it out, and put it back on without ever looking up at my Charger 2. Once I tied the boot back on my foot securely, I trimmed out and did a huge static jump back over towards my buggy since it had rolled downwind a bit. He commented, "Man that kite is stable, what is that?" I proceeded to tell him about the magic voodoo that makes arcs behave like a single line kite. My favorite part of the arc flight experience is that when the wind is smooth, the kite just sits and waits. Want to take a nap? Just lay down and have a nap. Hungry? Hook the chicken loop to your trailer hitch and make a sandwich.

The two main modern arcs are really great performers. The Phantom is really quick with its slim profile, and seems to have awesome upwind. The Charger is such a blast to fly because of its awesome handling, and it has just a ton of explosive lift on demand if you send it. The problem with arcs is the learning curve. You have to either learn to fly on an arc first, or you have to be prepared to unlearn some habits from flying foils or LEI. I will be the first to say it, sometimes arc ground handling is cumbersome. There isn't quite that freedom of pulling the kite out of the bag and flying, but it is about the same as an LEI. The main difference is that you can open the wingtip to let it inflate while you walk your lines instead of having to pump it up yourself. A newbie trying to solo launch an arc is tough. My first time flying my Charger took me 45 minutes to get it in the air, and I bowtied or inverted it at least four times that day.

All that being said, when I reach for my Charger bag now, it takes me 5-7 minutes and I am up in the air fully inflated if the wind is blowing 12mph or more. The learning curve is steep at first, but when you get your habit down for launch and packdown, it is just as fast as anything else. I leave my lines connected to bar and kite, and I leave spars in as well. If someone were less patient than me, they would have sold their kite after the first flight.

It is a labor of love for me. It is an unusual kite, with a very specific design. It fascinates me on so many levels that I was drawn to arcs a year before I ever got one. I think they are mechanically beautiful, and functionally powerful and versatile. There are LEIs, which are purpose built specifically to crash in water and be able to relaunch, and fixed bridle foils and single skin kites that are made to fly in the lightest winds or pack up the smallest, and then there are arcs. They are not the fastest, nor are they the lightest. They are like a Range Rover. They can take you nearly anywhere as long as you aren't in too much of a hurry, but they are super comfortable while you are flying. I think most people that have flown them would agree, arcs are probably the best behaving and easiest kites to fly in the air for beginners or advanced riders. But I think their biggest hurdle is that the ease of use isn't there to get potential arc flyers in the air quick enough to actually experience and fall in love with that part of them.

Well said Demo!