I saw you had sneaked in a couple of other Ozones alongside your Access! 15m Summit must be a beast!!

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

15m Summit must be a beast!!

"She's a whole lot of woman" as I like to say.

Truth be told, like most very strong woman, she scares me a little bit. :karate:

Utahtami, a local legend around these parts, recently sold it to me near new. I've flown it twice, once in wind light enough that I had trouble launching it and the second in a session that started calmly but then picked up wind wise resulting in the full trim state. I got it for boosting on skis and hopefully skates. That girl's got some lift! Tami is a little, err, vertically challenged and the throw on the bar was too long for her. I measure in at 6-ft even and I've got long arms, but I wouldn't want another inch of throw to the bar either so I can totally see how somebody with shorter arms would find the kite hard to fly.

First year snowkiting on a new 2015 Access 10m. I took one short lesson and have been out about 15 times this winter. I have a few questions that might or might not belong on this thread but I'll ask:

1) The re-ride I started using recently. It is perfect for killing the kite and taking a break or whatever. On the relaunch, your basically forced to hot launch, which is what I usually do as I've been going out in lighter winds. Is the "hot launch" SOP for this kite on skis? ie if the winds are to high for hot launching, is it just time to step down to a smaller kite size? Or is this whole concept of the hot launch being "bad" restricted to water kiting under higher winds? I ask because I hot launched under higher gusty winds recently and, well....got launched. (I admit, it was very gusty; i should not have attempted, lesson learned)

2)Concerning depower. When riding along with the kite parked, when I pull in the bar, the kite falls back, almost appears to stall, and is very sensitive to bar movement. When I bar out, the kite moves forward and appears to have more power. Is this correct? I thought it was supposed to be the opposite. So is depowering while riding achieved by trimming the front lines of the kite? Right now the only use I've learned of "bar in" is while turning, as the kite makes sharper, quicker turns. When else does one bar in?
How else can one minimize/maximize power while riding?(I understand some of the techniques like power stroking and looping uphill, just wondering if I'm missing anything in the bar operation.)

To clarify how a depower kite works, again: When you pull the bar in, the kite pulls harder, but it slows down and sometimes stalls if you don't have much forward speed and apparent wind. When you let the bar out, the kite has less resistance and will lessen the pull, but speed up. Sometimes this makes for a moment of more power, but once the kite is at the edge of the window, it does pull less with the bar out.

Seems there are a lot of new snow kiters lately with depower questions. One common theme seems to be kite operation questions. A lot of us on here started flying fixed bridle 4 line on handles static, then added movement, then picked up depower with ease and all self taught. if you do not want proceed with lessons then the time must be spent flying static before getting moving. I would highly recommend spending some time getting to know your kite in various wind conditions and get an idea of how it flies. These are fundamental concepts that one should completely understand before being in motion safely. Im not at all criticizing because this is a common issue but wish to make you aware that spending 5 or 6 sessions flying the kite static and manipulating the bar and trim all while practicing flying the kite through the window in different conditions will go a long way to answer your questions and better prepare yourself for the task at hand.

Myth 1. "Depower kites aren't for static flying".

Static flying is a great way to learn to manage the power and handling of ANY kite.

Myth 2. Hot launches are dangerous and should only be done in low winds.

Hot launches can be executed safely even in high winds. If your kite hangs a smack down on you during hot launch you are doing it wrong and need to make some changes. The key is DONT FIGHT THE KITE. The kite can only build power in the center of the window if the rider offers resistance. Edge slightly against it to maintain tension for steering control but let the kite take you. As you move with the kite power is minimal as the kite rises and bleeds off as it approaches 12:00. At worst you slide downwind 15-20'. Sheeting in during hot launch in high winds will get you into trouble. Bar out is the general rule.

If the kite is stalling when you sheet it, you aren't in enough wind or you aren't letting the kite build enough airspeed to tolerate the change in angle of attack. Your outside lines serve a couple of functions. They steer the kite, change the angle of attack resulting in lift overhead and power when in the wind window. But they also act as a means of braking in the right winds.

Seriously, (while static) fly the kite across the window and when it's flying fast through the middle pull the bar in. Let us know what happens then :D That's all it takes plus a good 20 hours all static if no lessons.

I'm guilty of being a complete noob and asking a lot of questions, some of them probably pretty dumb So thanks for being tolerant and answering our noobish questions. You guys have certainly shortened my learning curve on kite operations. I still suck but I "get" what's supposed to be happening. You guys are a great resource!

Quote: Originally posted by skier

Is the "hot launch" SOP for this kite on skis? ie if the winds are to high for hot launching, is it just time to step down to a smaller kite size? Or is this whole concept of the hot launch being "bad" restricted to water kiting under higher winds? I ask because I hot launched under higher gusty winds recently and, well....got launched.

Two keys to hot launching on skis. First, point your skis directly towards to the kite, or at best maybe 30 degrees away from the kite towards the direction you intend to travel. Second, have the bar out.

I've found that most of my relaunches after pulling in the 5th line with my hands on Re-Ride kites end up being reverse launches. Once the kite sort of unfolds itself on the snow it seems to end up being nose down 90% of the time. So... skis pointed towards kite, check, bar out, check, pull on brake line cross strap until kite is off the ground about 15-20 feet, check, swoop the kite down and towards the direction of intended travel, check, take the acceleration, check, make your bottom turn, check, off you go!

As Chris (feyd) was mentioning, the important thing here is that you are skiing downwind throughout the hot launch. This will bleed most of the power out of the launch and it really isn't such a big event.

One more important point to consider is downwind obstacles BEFORE you pull in the 5th re-ride line to take a rest. Account for the fact that you will likely need to hot launch to get things going again after your rest, so leave plenty of space for yourself to accomplish the maneuver I described above. Done as described it is a pretty fun way to get things moving again.

Good luck!

I must admit I'm a real scaredy cat with the hot launch in higher winds. I have done a few with my 6m Access in 25mph+ and had some serious brown trouser moments. I'm talking buggy here though, not skis. I have been pulled right up and over the footpegs, in spite of having the buggy pointing directly downwind towards the kite. I think the issue here is the resistance that Feyd talks about. It's a big heavy buggy, and the surface (uncut grass) offered quite a bit of resistance. I guess it's just not possible for the buggy to accelerate quick enough from a standstill to allow the power from the kite to bleed off. In higher wind now I launch by having the kite flagged out towards the edge of the window with a weight on the upwind tip. Rolling back at a 45 degree angle to the kite puts tension on the downwind tip and up she goes but not right through the power. Similar to way an arc is launched I guess, that's where I got the idea

Hot launches, be it on a board or ski, function essentially the same. As Windstruck points out, as long as you are facing and pointing downwind and allow for some downwind drift all works well.

Buggies, that's a bit different I would imagine. :D Robin's description is a pretty common launch method and is effective and illustrated in Flysurfer, Ozone and HQ manuals. Unfortunately it relies heavily on a consistent wind direction which in many cases is not available. Trying to launch at 45deg in my kiting environment is a lesson in frustration and usually ends in some type of bow tie or invert. Some days you are prepped for launch and the kite blows right at you. The less time we spend with the kite sitting on the surface the better which is why we almost exclusively do hot launches here.

There's nothing wrong with being apprehensive about hot launches. They can be intimidating without someone right there with you to walk you through it. A little apprehension can save your bacon sometimes in a lot of kite handling. Easing into things is the key and picking your moments. If the wind is deafening in both ears, don't launch. If you want to get comfortable with hot launches, practice in lower winds and get a feel for it. Get comfortable with moving with the key and bleeding off the power as the kite goes to zenith.

Robin is right about hot launching in a buggy. You will get yanked over your forks unless you are hotwired. I have been pulled over my forks before and it isn't fun. In the case of a buggy, you can hot launch on foot if the case requires it. You just make sure you have nothing downwind of you and scud it out while the kite inflates and goes up. Then you can park it at the side of the window and walk to your buggy to have a seat and get rolling. 99% of the time I have my kite in the air before I sit in my buggy. It is the safest way, even though sometimes in gusty conditions it can take a while for you to actually take your eyes off the kite long enough to sit down in the buggy.

I side launch directly downwind when hotwired, BUT my buggy has to be at an angle to prevent a steering line getting caught on a foot peg. If it doesn't launch with my first tug of the downwind steering line, then I have to try and push myself back with my feet trying to steer the buggy, keep any slack line from getting tangled on buggy, and get the kite to to catch hold of the wind. Luckily the peak is forgiving but only to a point. It will suddenly sort itself out then take you for a quick burst. I haven't turtled yet so it's worked fine so far but can definitely be unnerving. generally speaking, as soon as the kite takes hold, I obviously leave the bar out but I also try and keep it steered to one side but NOT UP.

Good advice. Sounds like most of my problem during the hot launch is having gotten used to doing it under light winds. As the kite rises off the ground, I turn myself and the kite in the direction I want to go immediately as I'm looking to create more power, which is great in lighter winds, but troublesome in higher winds.

So on the hot launch in higher winds, bar out, follow the kite downwind as it rises and loses power.
What about trimming in the front lines of the kite before launching?
Any worries about being lofted as the kite approaches 12? How to prevent? Wait until kite is just above 45 degrees before turning?

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

I must admit I'm a real scaredy cat with the hot launch in higher winds. I have done a few with my 6m Access in 25mph+ and had some serious brown trouser moments. I'm talking buggy here though, not skis. I have been pulled right up and over the footpegs, in spite of having the buggy pointing directly downwind towards the kite. I think the issue here is the resistance that Feyd talks about. It's a big heavy buggy, and the surface (uncut grass) offered quite a bit of resistance. I guess it's just not possible for the buggy to accelerate quick enough from a standstill to allow the power from the kite to bleed off. In higher wind now I launch by having the kite flagged out towards the edge of the window with a weight on the upwind tip. Rolling back at a 45 degree angle to the kite puts tension on the downwind tip and up she goes but not right through the power. Similar to way an arc is launched I guess, that's where I got the idea

Having a buggy the size of a Humvee as you do is most certainly your issue. I've had many Code Brown moments as well in various kite venues; that's good healthy fear in my opinion. Just body weight on slippery skis pointing down wind is just a whole different situation.

One funny little tale of mine involves my 6m Ozone Access too. I fell down in deep snow about a month ago and ended up with my kite down on the ground in 25-ish winds. Rather than struggle to try and right myself without poles (something I at least find a bit hard to do) I thought why not let the kite pull me up? Great call numbnuts. What this became was a hot launch with no ability to scrub power by skiing downwind. The Access launched me about six feet in the air and re-deposited me into the snow downwind about 15 feet. I was completely unhurt (other than my ego which took a pretty healthy bruise) and I had a good laugh about it. Needless to say I struggled to my feet before attempting that again. :karate:

Quote: Originally posted by skier

Good advice. Sounds like most of my problem during the hot launch is having gotten used to doing it under light winds. As the kite rises off the ground, I turn myself and the kite in the direction I want to go immediately as I'm looking to create more power, which is great in lighter winds, but troublesome in higher winds. So on the hot launch in higher winds, bar out, follow the kite downwind as it rises and loses power. What about trimming in the front lines of the kite before launching? Any worries about being lofted as the kite approaches 12? How to prevent? Wait until kite is just above 45 degrees before turning?

if you can, it's better to steer the kite (with bar out) to one side and avoid going straight up.

If you are worried about hot launching in your buggy, I would think that actually having your buggy pointed almost directly cross wind would be the best way. The side bars will keep you in the buggy a lot better and you don't risk coming over the forks. If you have good rails, which I assume you do if you have a big heavy bug, then it should be a non-event. Just a bit of sliding and you can steer into the skid and be on your way.

Wondering if anyone has a solution to the minor tear starting on the hole where 5th line enters kite? Both sides are wearing equally, just not sure what/if anything should be done. Looks like the 2016 has a plastic eyelet.

Quote:

I would think that actually having your buggy pointed almost directly cross wind would be the best way.

On a hard surface that seems to work ok, but don't do it on a soft surface - the tyres can just dig in and flip you over. I tend to launch from the buggy half way between the two....maybe a little more towards the downwind. Watch out if you do that with a tandem or passenger - then it's much easier to get lifted out.

Just want to give some more feedback about the Ozone Access kites. A few months back I decided to update my Access 4m. I brought a 2015 model to save a bit of money as essentially they are the same as the V6. This kite has been a pleasant surprise. Since then I have used it 6 or so times buggying in strong winds. What a great kite. Amazingly steady and controllable and the 5th line is so effective when landing. Today I was out in winds gusting to mid 30s knots and just loving it. My old 4m is 2009 and the new one is definitely an improvement in handling and feels safer.
I also have a 2014 6m Access and like that as well -very stable have even used it kitesurfing a couple of times when I didn't have a small enough kite (not that I would recommend this).

Wondering if anyone has a solution to the minor tear starting on the hole where 5th line enters kite? Both sides are wearing equally, just not sure what/if anything should be done. Looks like the 2016 has a plastic eyelet.

To answer my own question, Ozone sent out some plastic eyelets to install where the 5th line enters kite. 15 minutes and done. It's worth having a look inside the cells to see where 5th line passes through cells as some of the inside holes can wear a bit (but not as bad as where line enters kite). It's possible to beef these up with some tape or even more plastic eyelets.

Browsing this thread again reminds me of a question I have about hot launching foil kites. In high winds, I don't think it's possible to do anything but a hot launch, in my limited experience anyway...

I had a couple of guys helping me launch my 6m Access in 40+mph winds, and we were trying to launch at the edge of the window. The problem was, the wind was so high that it wasn't possible to orient the kite in a manner that allowed it to inflate itself at all, and as soon as everything "looked" ready to go and the kite was launched, it would immediately get blown backward in the window and be really deep in the zone before it inflated and took off, essentially a hot launch anyway.

The other issue I had a couple of times with the assisted side window launch was that the nose would collapse and fold in on the kite, so the front couple of feet would be folded in and the kite would fly around like a wet rag. Even pulling the bar all the way in wasn't enough to overcome the wind force and pop the kite into shape.

It's possible the wind speeds were just too far out of design range, but I wasn't able to do anything but hot launch my foils in those conditions.

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Browsing this thread again reminds me of a question I have about hot launching foil kites. In high winds, I don't think it's possible to do anything but a hot launch, in my limited experience anyway... I had a couple of guys helping me launch my 6m Access in 40+mph winds, and we were trying to launch at the edge of the window. The problem was, the wind was so high that it wasn't possible to orient the kite in a manner that allowed it to inflate itself at all, and as soon as everything "looked" ready to go and the kite was launched, it would immediately get blown backward in the window and be really deep in the zone before it inflated and took off, essentially a hot launch anyway. The other issue I had a couple of times with the assisted side window launch was that the nose would collapse and fold in on the kite, so the front couple of feet would be folded in and the kite would fly around like a wet rag. Even pulling the bar all the way in wasn't enough to overcome the wind force and pop the kite into shape. It's possible the wind speeds were just too far out of design range, but I wasn't able to do anything but hot launch my foils in those conditions.

I have experienced EXACTLY the same issues trying to side launch SS DP kites in high winds. With my 6m and smaller DPs wind speeds are 20+ to 30+ on the ground and generally all hell is breaking loose. Side launch attempts inevitably lead to the kite rolling along the ground. Since I'm a SS deviant (hey, get used to it) the problem of lack of kite structure and tons of long bridle lines make this a ticket for disaster, with bow ties, tangles, and all sorts of other delights. The extra fun part of all this is that the kite usually hot launches after a few tumbling seconds and is a heated mess in the air. Now what the heck do I do? :puzzled:

I'm convinced that this whole side launch business is for huge kites in tiny winds. Certainly for SS folks like me. Thing is, I'll hot launch a large kite in small winds anyway. Maybe this side launch business makes sense for FB fliers.

What I've come to do is set up my small DPs for a hot launch by wrapping the kite around a padded pole directly downwind, pull the clam cleat trim line way in, let out the bar, gulp, and launch. Pretty undramatic in terms of power assuming I don't get the bridle lines tangled before powering it up. At least for a 6.0m P2 or P3, a 4.0m P2, and a 3.5m LS2 this has worked out just fine.

So my advice is to hot launch small DPs with the trim line in and the bar out. Prayer never hurts. :P

Side launch is more of an ARC and LEI thing I always thought. I do sometimes side launch my 19m Speed3, but for the most part I hot launch that kite because it takes forever to inflate from the ground and I like to hot launch and just fly it full most of the time.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Since I'm a SS deviant (hey, get used to it) the problem of lack of kite structure and tons of long bridle lines make this a ticket for disaster, with bow ties, tangles, and all sorts of other delights. The extra fun part of all this is that the kite usually hot launches after a few tumbling seconds and is a heated mess in the air.

...sic, had one of those days today - more than 1 hour in total of 4-5, fixing mess in nasty winds (P2 6).

Agree on the thoughts on sidelaunch vs. hotlaunch business there too, guys.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who's struggled with High Wind/Side Launch technique. And I always have to chuckle when you watch videos online on how to do it, they are doing it in like 15 mph winds - not exactly what I would call high wind.

I've had about 50/50 success with side launching; and the 50% that are unsuccessful can go really wrong - like what windstruck said about balling up then magically sorting out directly downwind where it proceeds to hot-launch in some unforeseen, uncontrollable direction. Get ready to go for a ride. Or more often than not nowadays I just throw the safety as soon as I see it start drifting downwind in a mess.

The method I've had the best luck in high winds is launching with the kite positioned at a 45 deg angle to the wind with the upwind wintip weighted somehow (snow, landboard, milk jug w/water, etc). Then when I start tension-ing the lines the downwind wingtip comes up first and it tends to sort out the lines - possibly drifting back into the power zone a little bit. But then just as windstruck described, I go full forward with the bar, keep the kite low to the ground, and drive it to the wind window. Keeping it low will avoid getting yarded, but plan on smoking downwind. If I'm in snow or grass, I'll actually sit my butt on the ground and put one leg out in front of me like a bumper and ride out the initial surge. I imagine on a salt flat that could be pretty painful - maybe you could scudd it out? The other option I do is to actually have my skis on, pointed mostly downwind so that I can ride the initial surge out. I can see where if you were on a hard surface this might not be a great option though, as you could be going warp speed before you know it.

Maybe this is just a long way of saying what others have said in the Chrono V2 thread: light wind may be expensive, but in my eyes it is the most fun! And maybe not so expensive, when compared to a broken leg/shoulder/arm etc. etc...

I have always hot launched. Probably because that's what I learned when I started with FB and solo flying. If I feel that a hot launch is too
dangerous I get a smaller kite out. I'd rather cruise than fight angry ripstop. Every launch is unique, have your game plan thought out in
advance including your abort. One thing not mentioned: when ready to sit in the buggy, approach from the up wind side so you don't get pulled through the buggy by a gust.

I have always hot launched. Probably because that's what I learned when I started with FB and solo flying. If I feel that a hot launch is too
dangerous I get a smaller kite out. I'd rather cruise than fight angry ripstop. Every launch is unique, have your game plan thought out in
advance including your abort. One thing not mentioned: when ready to sit in the buggy, approach from the up wind side so you don't get pulled through the buggy by a gust.