Hi all,
I'm looking at getting myself a big FS Speed as a graduation gift (since I need some way to justify buying another kite), but I'm not sure which one to get. My goal with this is to get a kite which expands the days I can get out, but that's also enough fun that it's worth using. I'm mostly trying to decide between a Speed 4 15-21m and a Speed 3 21m depending on both what would be fun and what I can find used.

Ideally I think I'd like the Speed 4 15m since this is going to be the fastest of the kites I'm considering so I should have the most fun throwing it around and looping it, but should still have an impressive lower end to get me moving in marginal conditions. However, I worry that I might get this and sometimes find myself wishing I had a kite just slightly bigger. Alternatively, I've seen 21m Speed 3 DLXs for much cheaper and it'd certainly be nice to save some money I could use to buy kites to expand my upper end too.

So, I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions here on the differences between these kites (or happens to have one for sale that I might have missed).

15m Lotus is going to be the most versatile.

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

15m Lotus is going to be the most versatile.

That's what I expected. Am I going to lose much low end compared to the larger sizes which are around the same price?

It depends on how much you weigh and what surface you will kite on (water, ice, hard pack sand / snow, deep snow, grass). I wouldn't buy a flysurfer for kite loops, but I've seen videos of people helilooping them. I love my 15m S3 on water for big air.

+1 15m

1. A lot depend on your weight - if you're not a 250 lbs guy the 21m of either S3/S4 is probably not the best choice as you'd lose a lot of upper ranger of the wing.
2. I ride my 19m Deluxe very rarely due to not having a suitable local launch but I was tempted to upgrade to 15m Lotus thinking that it'd deliver as low of the end. But I'd say size matters for the same set of skills/weight/board and Flysurfer rates better lower end for the 19m Deluxe than for 15m Lotus.
2.5 Low end ratings are 6 knots for 18m Lotus, 7 knots for 19m Deluxe and 8 knots for 15m Lotus. That's why #3 below...
3. I'd still switch from 19m Speed3 to 18m Lotus if I had an extra thousand to blow.
4. I don't think 19m Flysurfer and kiteloops are made for each other. Even my 10m S4 is not as fast on turns as I want it to be. But even without the loops they bring me high easily and hang me out there like none of my LEIs does

That all being said - you're right about expanding your rideable days - at my 200 lbs I can ride the 19m Deluxe at 7 knots and I love to ride and when I have time and opportunity to ride I don't want to be the one watching from the shore.

I'm about 165bs and I want this for pretty much every terrain I have access to. Definitely grass, snow, and water.

I know one kite won't do everything and I'm looking at a big FS on the low end of things. The nimbler the better, but I'll certainly be fine if it doesn't loop. I don't think there's anything that turns faster and has nearly the same bottom end. Looks like the 15m lotus is the way to go once I finish justifying it to myself.

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

I'm about 165bs........ ... ... Looks like the 15m lotus is the way to go once I finish justifying it to myself.

With skill, large board and long lines and at your weight you'll be one of the few on water in lowest of the winds

Quote: Originally posted by grigorib

Quote: Originally posted by rofer   I'm about 165bs........ ... ... Looks like the 15m lotus is the way to go once I finish justifying it to myself. With skill, large board and long lines and at your weight you'll be one of the few on water in lowest of the winds

Just what I'm looking to hear

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

.......I don't think there's anything that turns faster and has nearly the same bottom end

With all my love to Flysurfer foils I have to admit that when I rode 17m Core XR LW on 39m lines it was quicker, turning fast and that after I couldn't even start going and work the 19m Deluxe on the bottom of its wind range.

Huh, it seemed every time I read about comparing LW LEIs with foils it seemed the Speeds were in a different league entirely. For use off the water I'm guessing I still want t big speed, but should I be considering something like the Blade Fat Lady (which seemed the have the best low-end of the LEIs last I looked)?

The new Zephyr has impressive low end, and I'll be surprised if a Fat Lady will be as good as the Edges, Contras, Juices etc.

Quote: Originally posted by rofer

best low-end of the LEIs

Contact Dimitri and he will send you an Infinity to demo: http://epickites.com/ I think that kite is about a 15m. Could be 15.5 or 16. I'm going to measure it if I ever get near one.

Or order up a 18m Helium for $850 new and free shipping.

http://switchkites.com/helium.html

30 day return on it: http://switchkites.com/guarantee/

Let's leave LEIs aside...
All above being said and having my like new 19m Speed3 Deluxe for sale I still support your choice of 15m Lotus. It's the one.

FSer Speed size/weight rule of thumb from John at powerzonekitesports......185lbs and under 15m.....190 lbs and up 19m............add door like or Spleene 141 like board, flat bottom little or no rocker and your set form 8kts to 15-17 kts.

This is spot on. At 160lbs my 15m SA2 is plenty of kite with my MTH custom 141 Col Reb......now this was before the 21m Deluxe..........at 165lbs a 15 should work well for you!:duh::duh:

Go with the 15m and consider a light wind board.

I am a light weight but find I can get overpowered by apparent wind very fast on my 19m SA.

You don't work a big Speed, so much as gently suggest how it could better spend its time more profitably...

So, looks like nowadays there are plenty of other light-wind LEI to consider, but I'm still best going with a 15m S4, right? I'd think especially so since I'll be on land too.

I like the idea of a kite I could work to get some extra performance out of, but absolute bottem end is more important and it looks like the 15m S4 is the way to go for my weight.

Definitely getting a light-wind board too. I hear they can make an even bigger difference than the kite.

Always other kites to consider. For example in terms of low end the Chrono 15 is a better option.

It seems that any kites that better low-end are going to be racing kites which steer even slower than the Speeds. Is this accurate?

I think the Speed 4 is probably the right kite for me, but I like seeing all of these options.

Ideally I'm most interested in freeride with some freestyle and big air stuff, but nothing too crazy. I doubt I'll be able to do too much in low winds though, but I'll be happy if I can at least get moving and do some small jumps.

I would not say that the Chrono is slower turning than the Lotus. Quite the contrary in our side by side comparisons they seem about the same. But the Chrono smokes the Lotus going upwind and down. With the coming of the R1 the Chrono is being relegated to a more all rounder sort of kite with the Chrono 2 being given thicker bridles and some reinforcements to make it less race specific and more durable. When we first got our demos I didn't have much hope that the kite would be of use in our local gusty conditions but I am happy to say for a high AR race wing it is surprisingly versatile and able to be flown in some fairly nasty stuff. Took me half a season to figure that out and learn to trust the kite.

It's a remarkable kite and for like winds it's doubled my days but it is still heavily skill dependent to get the most performance out of it and to even fly it effectively. Thus the bad rap it gets from pilots (mostly LEI guys) who bought them but aren't familiar with flying foils especially such a high performance machine.

ANOTHER option is the Matrixx 2. Lower AR than the Chrono or Lotus. Snappier turning and easier inflation and launch. Good grunt and surprisingly good upwind, close to the Lotus but not quite. A dark horse for sure. Size wise compared to the Chrono, they pull roughly one size down in our observations. IE the 18m pulls like a 15m Chrono. It has a very similar feel and look to the Psycho 4 but faster turning and faster inflating. Hucking wise, very much the same kind of hucker. Again another kite we hadn't given much hope or thought about until we got it in our hands. Now it is a permanent addition to our school/demo fleet until they come out with something new. It's too bad we don't have snow anymore I'd say come up and try 'em out.

I've been fortunate enough to fly the Chrono, Sonic, Lotus and Matrixx this season. Really all are phenomenal kites.

Technique is key in low wind on water, speeds like speed . Working the kite doesn't help as much as it does with LEIs. Go downwind to build speed then edge upwind enough but without slowing down too much. Sheet out at first to build speed, then pull in for power. Keep the kite high to decrease your apparent weight on the water. Transitions are where you will loose ground in light wind so downloop the kite in the transitions to avoid loosing ground and do long tacks.

This is just water technique, I don't kite on land anymore but I would imagine it is similar except for downlooping, I wouldn't downloop it on land because it creates quite a bit a power. To downloop on water I bring the kite quite high and loop high, once I didn't and went flying straight downwind onto the beach jumped off the board and ran until the kite slowed down:D and the wind was super light, not even enough to go upwind.