As usual, I like your thinking Chris! I am leaning more and more toward DP as my primary weapon. I LOVE my 12M Peak2 for buggying and can't wait to work it this winter on skis. As you were telling me, this is pretty close to a one kite quiver for my needs, certainly with the sustained wind under 10 knots. I've not tried it yet in winds over that and I expect to need to eat my Wheaties for that.

Xianthiax - the folks here that are weighing in give you really good advice. I would only say pay particular note of the "you get what you pay for" theme that you've seen off and on throughout this thread. Chris' (Feyd) points are good ones when it comes to resale. Trainers won't be your go to's if you get serious and you will likely want to unload it sooner than you think.

I look forward to hearing about how this goes and what your impressions are once your "graduate" up to DPs. Only a matter of time... :evil:

I lean toward 4 line on handles and a strop when teaching people who intend to move up to depower.

I show them ( usually side by side with my Pulse ) that when hooked in and taking the power through the strop it is very similar to flying off the chicken loop / front lines with the bar out. I have them hold the handles horizontal like a bar and then have them do brake turns + add brake to both sides. I show them how that is similar to steering and pulling your bar in on a depower. I find it helps them get their head around what is happening to the kite when they work the bar since depower is such a confusing word. Naturally as part of that lesson I try to explain how the depower is changing the whole AOA and projected area ( in some cases ) while with FB you are just influencing the back row of bridle lines.

Starting with FB on a bar doesn't force the beginner to think about brake input and how the front / back lines influence the kite. I find that people who understand that progress to become better depower pilots faster.

Chris / Others.

Thank you for the advice. I had already ordered the kite before I read these posts. I went with the alpha but not for the cost, I was willing to pay for the rush.

The reason I took the alpha is because of the 4 lines over the rush, which is effectively a 2 line kite with a break line. I get what you're saying about the depower Chris however, I have a wife and she would execute me if I'd have spent that much money on what she classes as a toy... (even after vids).

So, not only do I have to learn how to fly but I have to contest with her too... (working on it slowly.)

Kite arrived today. No wind but I took it out anyway. Stood in a field like a loonie waiting with hope. Luckily, I did the old kiddie trick of waiting for a small bit of wind and taking a short run backwards to get some height, luckily it worked.

I have to say, I'm not disappointed!! little to no wind and that thing pulls. my back feels like I've been the gym and I was only flying for about 20 30 mins!!

I can't wait to see what its like with a bit of stable wind.

I have to admit though, how I expected it to fly via the controls was different to how it actually worked. I found turning it harder than I thought it was going to be, this could have been a combination of poor form and lack of wind. I will have a better idea after I try again. Think I may go watch some tube vids to see if I can pick up some tips.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

You just need a little more wind it will most likely handle great. When learning, you really want about 8-12 mph at least. Lower than that and you'll struggle

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

You just need a little more wind it will most likely handle great. When learning, you really want about 8-12 mph at least. Lower than that and you'll struggle

Yup, I can see that being an issue. I will need to do some research into some good locations. I am in the UK so will be interesting to see if there are any clubs local I could maybe use their sites to practice.

Great to hear you had a great time.

Low wind behaviour is different from stronger winds. The kite will become more alive.
As for turning the kite. That can roughly be done in three ways.
1. Pull the handle towards you LEAVING brakelines slack (turn)
2. Twist the bottom part of one handle towards you so you turn the kite on a break line. (Quicker turn)
3.Pull the handle towards you and twist the handle at the same time. (Quickest turn)

Side note...in low to no wind, you want to keep the tension on the kite. And your wind window is very small.
But making flying hours will teach you all.

Good luck

Quote: Originally posted by xanthiax

Chris / Others. Thank you for the advice. I had already ordered the kite before I read these posts. I went with the alpha but not for the cost, I was willing to pay for the rush. The reason I took the alpha is because of the 4 lines over the rush, which is effectively a 2 line kite with a break line. I get what you're saying about the depower Chris however, I have a wife and she would execute me if I'd have spent that much money on what she classes as a toy... (even after vids). So, not only do I have to learn how to fly but I have to contest with her too... (working on it slowly.) Kite arrived today. No wind but I took it out anyway. Stood in a field like a loonie waiting with hope. Luckily, I did the old kiddie trick of waiting for a small bit of wind and taking a short run backwards to get some height, luckily it worked. I have to say, I'm not disappointed!! little to no wind and that thing pulls. my back feels like I've been the gym and I was only flying for about 20 30 mins!! I can't wait to see what its like with a bit of stable wind. I have to admit though, how I expected it to fly via the controls was different to how it actually worked. I found turning it harder than I thought it was going to be, this could have been a combination of poor form and lack of wind. I will have a better idea after I try again. Think I may go watch some tube vids to see if I can pick up some tips. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Quote: Originally posted by Devoted

Great to hear you had a great time. Low wind behaviour is different from stronger winds. The kite will become more alive. As for turning the kite. That can roughly be done in three ways. 1. Pull the handle towards you LEAVING brakelines slack (turn) 2. Twist the bottom part of one handle towards you so you turn the kite on a break line. (Quicker turn) 3.Pull the handle towards you and twist the handle at the same time. (Quickest turn) Thanks, I guess as you say, more flight time the more it will make sense, I think I had a break line twisted too, sure that didnt help. Really looking forward to getting back out there. Really surprised at how much pull it had. I am so looking forward to another bash at it..

Just want to confirm that you are holding the handles correct. Top lines between your index and middle finger.

As described there are 3 ways to influence a turn . Push pull ( like steering a bike ) on the front lines only. Adding a bit of brake tension to one side will alter the wing and it will fly that direction. Combining the 2 you can pretty much spin the kite on it's wing tip.

Just try and CONTROL the kite at 1st ( in decent winds ). Don't fly it all over the place but just try and keep it calm. Try NOT to use the brakes until the steering ( and delay ) are set in your memory reflexes. Then play with adding brake input.

Beginners often seem to make jerky movements. They only confuse the kite. Try and influence things gently and learn how to anticipate the delay. You need to start your turns early do to this delay.

Enjoy!

Quote: Originally posted by xanthiax

Quote: Originally posted by Devoted   Great to hear you had a great time. Low wind behaviour is different from stronger winds. The kite will become more alive. As for turning the kite. That can roughly be done in three ways. 1. Pull the handle towards you LEAVING brakelines slack (turn) 2. Twist the bottom part of one handle towards you so you turn the kite on a break line. (Quicker turn) 3.Pull the handle towards you and twist the handle at the same time. (Quickest turn) Thanks, I guess as you say, more flight time the more it will make sense, I think I had a break line twisted too, sure that didnt help. Really looking forward to getting back out there. Really surprised at how much pull it had. I am so looking forward to another bash at it.. Comments lime this reminds me of my maiden flight. Gosh i was a virgin back in time. But the fun of exploring the wind range and the kite....good times. PL pepper 4.5 was my first kite. And coming from a good shop who considered the average inland winds. After that a set of Gin Yoz kites. The whole range. Good design. One of the best designs to look at. That 10.5 was a beast in light winds. Slow turns but the pull of a truck on steroids. Tried a ozone Riot, collected a set of Flexi Blades...and yes..including the big ones...and crashed myself down jumping over a tree. 6 months no kiting including the event i organized myself. Went to PL arcs and never looked back till now. I had good times on handles. Flown good kites. Learned boarding on a small grass field with holes and bumps. Faceplants, and bar hitting nose stuff. But also learned a lot about adjusting kites, bridles, crappy winds, getting overpowered and sharing experiences and a coffee. Living here for 8 months and saw one kiter passing by on land. I have to set the trend. Hahaha. Ps...got myself a synergy 15. Figured it will do for land and some random ocean kiting. The more im on here, the more i want to hang out on different kite spots close by and hang out with peeps and have a laugh. Beer's on me.

Ps...peeps think kiting is easy,
but the wind and power, combined with body mechanics and what to actually get out of a kite is different.

I look at Sam or Wilby and they make boarding look easy. I make boarding look difficult. Hey..see the difference. They are good..
i try stuff and have just as good of a time. Hahaha..and have good looks.
Im handsome....

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Just want to confirm that you are holding the handles correct. Top lines between your index and middle finger. As described there are 3 ways to influence a turn . Push pull ( like steering a bike ) on the front lines only. Adding a bit of brake tension to one side will alter the wing and it will fly that direction. Combining the 2 you can pretty much spin the kite on it's wing tip. Just try and CONTROL the kite at 1st ( in decent winds ). Don't fly it all over the place but just try and keep it calm. Try NOT to use the brakes until the steering ( and delay ) are set in your memory reflexes. Then play with adding brake input. Beginners often seem to make jerky movements. They only confuse the kite. Try and influence things gently and learn how to anticipate the delay. You need to start your turns early do to this delay. Enjoy!

Hi,

Yes, I looked at a few vids, I am "holding" them correctly, however using them correctly is a different matter, I keep forgetting there are breaklines attached. I catch myself trying to pull the kite. (again this is prob because there was no wind and I was trying to force the kite to move.)

Good advice though, I will try and keep the kite stable rather than throwing it around. I think you're right, get the basics right first and the rest should be a lot easier.

its meant to be 8 - 14 mph today so I have kite in the car for after work, trees look very still though. You guys will be having lunch by the time i'm out there. Will let you know how I get on later.

Quote: Originally posted by Devoted

Ps...peeps think kiting is easy, but the wind and power, combined with body mechanics and what to actually get out of a kite is different. I look at Sam or Wilby and they make boarding look easy. I make boarding look difficult. Hey..see the difference. They are good.. i try stuff and have just as good of a time. Hahaha..and have good looks. Im handsome....

You excite me and scare me both at the same time with your comments!

Yes, its nice being in the honeymoon period of a new sport, you get the thrill the adrenaline. I will like it a little more when I'm competant though, took me 20 mins to figure out where all the lines where meant to go when I was setting it up.

Haha.. Bet I can get it up in 5 mins now, assuming my lines aint twisted to death..

Quote: Originally posted by xanthiax

... assuming my lines aint twisted to death..

There are a couple of different methods of packing a kite and lines so that you avoid the dreaded rats nest of tangles.
Take a look at:
http://www.racekites.com/2010/03/how-to-fly-part-4-packing-a...
I used to simply wrap the lines around the top of the handles, but now I use a figure-8 around the handles - it seems faster and the lines seem to be less twisted.

@hiaguy - I learn something new everyday! "Parapacking" - wow! Seems almost too good to be true. I couldn't help but notice that you choose to go with the figure 8 method (as do I) BUT your link was for this grab-and-stuff method. Begs the question - did you try it but ultimately abandon it for the more "traditional" approach? I have got to try it!

@xanthiax - I suspect a good number of use some variation of the figure 8 winding method. I tend to buggy mostly from bar setups which really lend themselves to winding lines in fig-8 patterns due to their long length and hooked ends (clearly designed with this in mind). Here is the important part (maybe the most important): be deliberate in your packing and winding and ALWAYS unwind in the exact reverse sequence as you wound. What I mean by this is say you held the bar (or handles) in your left hand and wound the lines with your right hand while facing the kite and facing downwind while walking towards the kite, then when you later unwind it is IMPERATIVE that you again face the kite with the wind at your back, hold the bar again in your left and walk backwards away from the kite upwind taking the lines off with your right hand. The most careful winding in the world will have exactly as many twists in your lines as you made figure 8s if you just flip the lines off the bar. That may take an hour to unravel, especially when you give the lines a yank or catch one on your foot. How do I know the you ask???

I learned the hard way to be 100% consistent in this process. It's pretty easy once you get used to it. Just do it right every time! :evil:

@swesting - I knew there were a couple of write-ups on the parapak, but didn't remember seeing one for winding, so I took the easy-out for the post.

I started with the wrap around the top of the handles, stuck in a sock to keep it wrapped.
After a few months I tried the parapak: managed to tangle the lines all three times I tried it and decided that the mess sitting in the bag bothered me.
Went to the figure-8 and liked it. I check the lines for wear and tear as I go. After the last wrap, I run the lines between the handles (which are already held tightly) to secure them.

You're absolutely right about consistency - same hands, same direction every time - never get a tangle.

Hiaguy - I was suspicious of the parapack! One of those "If it looks too good to be true then it probably is" sort of things. I am willing to try it with my new PL 4.5M Uniq since the concept for that kite is sort of "fast in; fast out". I'll see how it goes.

Probably a bit overkill with my last post, but jeez, I once did exactly what I described early on and ended up with about 50+ beautifully symmetrical twists in a four line set up. Sure enough, I caught one of the lines about 15 ft in with my shoe and fell flat on my face while lunging to catch my balance (hey, I think the Russion judge scored me an 8.5). When I got up the lines were a complete cluster ..... The following hour is one I sure would like to get back.

I did static traction kiting off and on for about 10 years before I stumbled onto PKF and had by then learned much of what we talk about (short of the buggying and DP kiting which is still pretty new for me) the hard slow way all on my own. PKF really lit my fire for buggying and all the rest. Man, to have had a few sage online friends to guide me along would have been sweet! :cool2:

Quote: Originally posted by swesting

@xanthiax - I suspect a good number of use some variation of the figure 8 winding method. I tend to buggy mostly from bar setups which really lend themselves to winding lines in fig-8 patterns due to their long length and hooked ends (clearly designed with this in mind). Here is the important part (maybe the most important): be deliberate in your packing and winding and ALWAYS unwind in the exact reverse sequence as you wound. What I mean by this is say you held the bar (or handles) in your left hand and wound the lines with your right hand while facing the kite and facing downwind while walking towards the kite, then when you later unwind it is IMPERATIVE that you again face the kite with the wind at your back, hold the bar again in your left and walk backwards away from the kite upwind taking the lines off with your right hand. The most careful winding in the world will have exactly as many twists in your lines as you made figure 8s if you just flip the lines off the bar. That may take an hour to unravel, especially when you give the lines a yank or catch one on your foot. How do I know the you ask??? I learned the hard way to be 100% consistent in this process. It's pretty easy once you get used to it. Just do it right every time! :evil:

My wife and I had a 20 min argument last night after my flying session just about this, I couldnt figure it out and of course, she knew best!

In the end, I just disconnected both ends and put the lines back on the reel...

haha. I will take a look at the link that was kindly posted above and see if that gives me a better idea. .

Quote: Originally posted by xanthiax

In the end, I just disconnected both ends and put the lines back on the reel.

That will teach her. haha

So much wind today, think my boss will let me go early?

two options : "erm, I have my wifes keys so I have to leave early?"

"Boss, can I go early, I want to fly my kite."

Xanthiax - you may just have set a record here on PKF to have have had a twenty minute discussion with your wife about anything kite related, whether it was an argument or not! :D

Such long discussions about kiting typically in a marriage much more typically fall into one of two categories: 1) "No you can't raid the kid's college fund or your 401(k) to buy more of those damn things. Aren't 15 kites or however damn many you have by now enough because I've lost track; or, 2) "Now honey, you know I love you very much, but I really think it has gotten to the point where you seriously need to start thinking about choosing me and the kids or your damn kites." Or some variation along those lines.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program: I would strongly recommend checking out two videos on YouTube (both by quedecree). Here are the links:

http://youtu.be/1FFVFffvXrQ

http://youtu.be/HZVCD-Kzu9k

I use mostly bars to fly kites as of late, but the sock over the bars technique featured in the first video is ingenious in its simplicity. Note how he walks backwards in the beginning playing the lines off of his figure eight with his right hand while holding the handles in his left hand and then does the exact same thing in reverse when winding things up at the end, walking towards the kite holding the handles again in his left hand and winding with his right.

Quote: Originally posted by swesting

Xanthiax - you may just have set a record here on PKF to have have had a twenty minute discussion with your wife about anything kite related, whether it was an argument or not! :D Such long discussions about kiting typically in a marriage much more typically fall into one of two categories: 1) "No you can't raid the kid's college fund or your 401(k) to buy more of those damn things. Aren't 15 kites or however damn many you have by now enough because I've lost track; or, 2) "Now honey, you know I love you very much, but I really think it has gotten to the point where you seriously need to start thinking about choosing me and the kids or your damn kites." Or some variation along those lines.

I have to admit, this did make me chuckle a little. My wife asked what I was laughing at, so I read her your post.

Her response was: "I have more of this to come then?"

Result! seed planted. I am taking that as permission to start looking for a board and 5m kite. Christmas is only around the corner!

Thanks for the links, I'm just about to watch them now. Though, stripping the kite completely only takes 5 mins, I've not had any bad tangles yet. Is there a reason that you don't strip the lines completely? or is it just a convenience thing?

On a separate note; had some great winds on sat/sun. took the kite and a board to the beech...

<<<WOW>>>

It pulled me a round like I was a piece of paper. Clearly, I have no board control but I can move in a straight (slightly left) line. cant for the life of me turn right! lesson 2 is board balance

Feeling a little sore and bruised but had so much fun!

Xanthiax - too funny. Yes, I clearly hear a permission statement in there so get shopping. Remember though, paybacS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s a #@%$#! and you need to be prepared for lots of shiny pointy new shoes on her feet or whatever her personal affliction happens to be.

Not quite sure what you mean by "stripping the lines completely". Kindly explain.

It sounds from your description of your kiting session that you had a great time. It would appear, however, that at this point you are yet to become an ambiturner. If you don't get your act together quickly we're going to nickname you Zoolander: https://youtu.be/8hJ1HDcMowk :P

Here's what I use..

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=26505

Fly in lees than 3 minutes. Pack in less than 5.

Quote: Originally posted by swesting

Xanthiax - too funny. Yes, I clearly hear a permission statement in there so get shopping. Remember though, paybacS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s a #@%$#! and you need to be prepared for lots of shiny pointy new shoes on her feet or whatever her personal affliction happens to be. Not quite sure what you mean by "stripping the lines completely". Kindly explain. It sounds from your description of your kiting session that you had a great time. It would appear, however, that at this point you are yet to become an ambiturner. If you don't get your act together quickly we're going to nickname you Zoolander: https://youtu.be/8hJ1HDcMowk :P

Oh Swesting, I am a great at going left... A master one could say.. :D

Great vids, I love the sock idea.. That guy has the best flying spot in the world.

Stripping the lines, I simply mean take off the kite and the bars and put them back on that plastic thing they came on..

I will give the sock idea a go, though it really doesnt take long to just pack the strings away completely. I can see its a little faster if you just wrap them like in the vid. Im gonna mess that up and spend a week untangling them :D
I am an ambiturner... NOOOOOO... I can't go right.. lol

Xanthiax - now I see what you mean. I suspect there are nearly as many varieties of packing as their are kite enthusiasts. Speaking only for myself, there are some kite setups in my quiver that I share a bar among more than one kite (two PL Lynx's and three NASA Star 3's) so for those kites I pack my lines separately from my kites, winding figure 8's around their bars. As discussed before, winding on bars is generally simpler anyway since they are longer and have hooked ends perfect for wrapping figure 8's around. However, for my FS Peak2 it is the only kite I have from them so I leave the lines attached to the kite and wind them on its bar. For the kites I fly off of handles (PL Hornet and PL Uniq) both came with handles so I leave the lines attached to those too and do a variation of the sock over handle winding approach.

With you (current) one kite quiver (a quivlette?) I would suggest leaving the lines attached and come up with some sort of system that works for you. The thread that riffclown shared earlier had some nice suggestions.

indeed!


Thanks Both, wind forecast for tomorrow so I'll try and wrap my lines nicely