Back when I had my synergy, I had a hard time getting upwind while in the water what models have ya'll found that do best at this. Maybe the problem was it was a 19m and I was inexperienced and in the waves? All I know is that it's much easier with my cats. I'm just thinking about getting an arc because I love the way they work with a landboard.

Usually the ARC's have incredible upwind. In the lighter winds it may be more difficult but that goes for pretty much any kite. Speed is the key, keep the kite moving with some good speed and you'll get upwind no problem.

Which version would you say is best? I also would like something floaty with lots of pop

then its got to be a charger!!

i 'd say same charger (2), but just did a water session on old V16 brought back alot memories. never found 19m that useful , way too much power(thats was prolly ur problem) too slow for water action, certainly not waves.

decent trim to depower the kite will speed things up and give better up wind in general.

the most versatile size is CHii 15m if you are 180lbs. plus

Phantom 2 or F-arc for good upwind performance. F-arc especially best arc for up wind.

Sorry for the thread drift. But... I've done some water lessons recently (LEI of course). I have the waterstart nailed and I want to carry on practicing on my own (around other kiters not totally alone!). I have a couple of arcs already, a 15m Synergy and a 13m Venom. Was hoping to use them but I've been advised no way use my twinskins, get LEI.

Any comments?

who advised you not to use the arcs?

Carl..just forum comments really. Maybe through lack of familiarity with arcs. But one comment was how many arcs do you ever see out on the water? Probably none. And the reason being because blow ups are much better suited to the job.

Must admit I've never seen an arc on water.

Don't get me wrong, I want to use mine, I love em. I can't afford to shell out on 2 or 3 LEIs!

as with all kiting its 80% being able to fly the kite and 20% board skills so if you can fly your arcs, there is no reason why you cant use them for water use. one of the advantages is the auto zenith. you can get your board on your feet without the kite dropping out of the sky and youre not forever relaunching the kite after every crash!!

Yeah I might give it a go. I'm 75kg. What sort of wind range would be good for my kites? Is the infamous "arc wind range calculator" worth using?

And same size board you would use with an LEI? Instructor advised me to get something between 135-140

yea a 140 is a great wboard but width is also important. short and fat is a lot easier to learn on then long and thin. 140x40. when people are on 9m lei go for your 13m when on 10-12m lei go for your 15m

Thanks Carl.

Again sorry for the hijack just wanted some input from guys who actually ride arcs on water.

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

Sorry for the thread drift. But... I've done some water lessons recently (LEI of course). I have the waterstart nailed and I want to carry on practicing on my own (around other kiters not totally alone!). I have a couple of arcs already, a 15m Synergy and a 13m Venom. Was hoping to use them but I've been advised no way use my twinskins, get LEI. Any comments?

That's what guys say that don't have any arc experience. Nothing wrong with LEIs but the arcs are good kites as well for water. Huge top end.

Arc tribute

Here is a one of my all time favorite arc videos from one of our own. And he's not even riding anything!! Thought I would go this route but just didn't have the stones to do it.

No running upwind or pendulum jump. Just a huge arc, high wind, and guts / skill

Sean, that guy is actually jumping in a somewhat dangerous way. You see how in nearly every clip he overflies the kite and has to run back to keep it from inverting? That is because he is not redirecting to keep the kite moving over his head. Even with big ripstop, you need to redirect and keep the kite moving as long as your feet are not on the ground. The way he was jumping is the way you break legs. He was going high, but it looked like that was just because he was on the verge of being in over his head. I have a few years of jumping under my belt now, on a wide variety of kites. It is fun, but it is so dangerous and hard on your body. I have rolled ankles and pinged my heels on the smallest of jumps. Once you start getting as much air as that guy was, you really need to know how to keep the kite moving. If the wind lulls while your kite is parked over your head with you in the air, you are coming down fast. If you are redirecting the kite, the lulls won't affect it nearly as badly as long as you have some decent horizontal movement going on.

Don't worry, I've given up dreams of huge static jumps on hard ground. That's pongnut. Still impressive courage to whip out a huge arc in enough wind to get launched straight off the ground from a stand still.

Heh, I haven't put together any video of my Speed 3 jumps yet. Sadly, I don't have any video from my high wind session over the summer with it. Let's just say that I could have jumped onto the roof of a two story house with ease.

Back to the upwind thing.

I don't have experience with anything newer than Charger I but when I think upwind, I think F-arc?
When I think worst kite for water I think F-arc.

Did you try adjusting the internal straps before? I find it makes a bit of difference with my Synergies.

As mentioned once you have good control of arcs it is pretty hard to crash them. Auto Zenith and all. A HUGE plus when transitioning to water and trying to get accustomed to the board! The newer arcs re-launch off water much better than the F-arc, Phantom etc.. I think it is the poor re-launch that gave them a bad rep' on water.

If you will be home for SOBB let me know. I can throw my 12m F-arc in for you to try?

I probably won't be home for sobb. When is it? I'm in Texas now waiting for pilot training to start. By then end of the time with my syn I had great control of it. It may have been too slow, I had it set on the inside to the higher lift setting, and goodness knows it's hard enough to stay upwind out there with all the currents and waves. I just loved the way it performed. I really liked it but had to let it go for my current set up. My cats just don't give the lift and hang time I want. I also miss the auto zenith and rock steady handling. Thought of getting a speed or chrono, but I've never flown one. Help I guess? Also thought of getting an edge

I would not expect the synergy to shine too brightly when it comes to upwind performance as it's a lower aspect ratio kite. The charger II is lovely in that regard, being more or less the evolution of the synergy. Obviously something like a phantom I/II is going to do better, and an f-arc will do crazy things, giving you 20 degrees or so more in pointing ability. I can't imagine the synergy struggles to do well upwind on the water though, given it was intended to be a land and water kite.

You can certainly play with the straps if you never have before on an arc. Tightening them up completely makes the kite very different while flying, versus the traditional all loose. For upwind performance, you'll want to be flying all loose. This will also give you the most depower and the lightest bar feel. Note, if you've never adjusted them, they come about the middle stock, so loosening them will help.

Syn aspect varies per size. The 19 for example is a 5.0 AR while the smaller sizes are around 4.8-9. I would put a Syn up against our Charger 2's (Ar 5.0-5.2) any day in regards to upwind performance.

I fully agree on flying with straps all loose. Best all round performance in most conditions and the kites were designed around the all loose setting.

Phantom 2 has very good upwind for it's relatively low AR (relative to f-arcs, phantom 1 and modern recent Hi AR foils) It isn't as good as an F-Arc but better than a Phantom 1.

F-Arc is going to hammer upwind. A skilled pilot with an F-Arc will hold their own and at times surpass a Speed 4 on the upwind.

The only kite that I've flown that comes close to the feel and performance of the F-Arcs is the Chrono V1. It has a very similar feel, and shares many of the quirks that the F-arcs have. But once you get it figured out the Chrono is an unreal kite. And unlike the F-arc, it has pretty substantial depower and it actually hammers downwind as well as up. The F-Arcs require a lot of speed before a downwind leg to maintain power IMO.

The Sonic is a riot. Hammers up wind almost as well, maybe as well as the Chrono. I haven't spent enough time on them to know for sure. It's a lower AR than the Chrono in smaller sizes and a little more stable and user friendly in some ways. But for me doesn't have the same "Ummphhh!" that the Chrono offers. I still prefer the Chrono but that is based largely on the similar feel to the F-Arc. As Chris Brent, designer of the F-Arc said to me about the Chrono and how it performs like an F-Arc, "Ha, it only took 12 years for someone to catch up".

The Chrono gets a bad rap. So did the F-Arc. The Chrono V2 is a just over 6.4 AR and has a better intake system. It will be a bit more user friendly as a result but the question is will it offer the same raw performance?

It falls between the R1 (AR 7.2) and Sonic would be my guess.

Thanks for the aspect ratio numbers Chris! I had NO idea the chrono had that much AR. I do remember your kiting 360 video with one. It's wicked to watch.

I didn't realize the syn scaled up in AR also, that's good to know. My thought was that the AR would be very similar between the syn and charger, merely the charger would be a bit more friendly to use, and thus, might feel a bit easier to gain headway upwind with. That said, I don't suspect the syn has issues on the water, since it was designed purposefully for it. In practice I'd guess the pointing abilities are about the same, and it sounds like you have some data to vet that :-)

I haven't had my Charger on the water, but I know it has very solid upwind on land. I also know that it is proven to be a great water kite. I don't see how anyone could vouch for a water kite that can't go upwind at a good clip.

Ask Carl, because you know he rides nothing but Chargers on the water. I doubt he would trust them as fully if they couldn't go upwind

When I used arcs on the water I had no problem going upwind but quite often i would use a directional (surf) and I can get away with a bit less power than i would need riding my twin tips. With the arcs on water you want them to feel solidly powered to get the best power delivery otherwise you will need to work the bar in and out a lot and really flying the kite and this is when you can find yourself in and out of the power zone until you have that solid power feel - and don't choke them, let the arcs run fast to build up power, pulling in the bar too much underpowered will just slow them down and drop power. Now aside from being underpowered I've also seen friends using smaller arcs (10m) in a good wind and they are flying it too fast in and out of the power zone and were struggling to get up and riding with constant power. By far the best arc riding I've had on water was using between 12 and 16 when i was really powered - dip the kite and go and lot's of power even with the bar out so you know you'll have a ton when you go to pull in the bar for boost.
You don't really want the arcs that will sit far out at the edge of the wind window especially if you are riding in more wavy conditions. The arcs will develop the power as they get moving faster and then sitting out at the edge but in surfing you don't get going as fast as you do on land and in waves you can often go more toward the kite running a wave and the arc will float and lag in power until it gets moving and if it's a model that sits really far forward then it needs to race forward even further to start delivering power and in those couple of seconds you can get swallowed by the wave or pushed sideways downwind more.
You really need to learn a bit different style for woking arcs on water, just to figure out that steady power delivery when you want it.

Found a link to the old Arcoholics video: http://vimeo.com/3103970

ARCs are great for water, ground, or snow. Not much for drawbacks in performance or handling during use for most people out there.

Here are some issues...
No one is sure how they can help you. I made this vid from a PL instructional vid and posted to my local forum to inform others. It worked.


With small rigging/ launch /landing zones your setup can often conflict with others and results in your kite /lines crossing others lines. If crowded can lead to a woven mess. Be prepared to be everyones kite 8!tch and launch them to make room for you. Get your ass off the beach before everyone comes back to land the wrong sized kite they just went out on too.

Ground handling for launching in small wind shadowed launches SUCKS!! Launching can be impossible or unpredictable (like Russian roulette). Might be different if thats what you're accustomed to. I was not. We went from large shadow free launches to launching in parking lots behind trees and dunes due to high water flooding our beaches in any wind. Way less sketchy launching LEIs in those conditions.

Lol zero gee, your explanation of launching in wind shadowed areas brings back memories. After a couple launches I learned to leave myself plenty of upwind room to run backwards to get the kite launched. The first couple of times I tried to launch with my back against a wall so to speak.

Hmm seems that my problem back then was the inner straps. Unfortunately I'll never know since I sold it. I will keep that in mind if I get an arc again. Sounds like the charger might be my next investment. Although the hangtime on the speeds and chronos looks insane.:evil:

Bah! You can't compare the Charger to Speeds or Chrono in terms of hang time or up wind.

Arcs are more inline with LEI performance than a bridled hi AR foil.

The only close comparison would be an F-arc. But only to smaller sizes of Chrono, Speed or Sonic or R1.