I was attempting to do a 30 mile race yesterday, winds were 35 sustained gusting to 48mph on a wind meter. Lake surface was bumpy ice. Not exactly ideal conditions, but bolstered by Feyd's high wind review of the Access 6m kite I felt confident to give it a go.

Well I didn't wipe out, but even that itty bitty 6m kite fully depowered was trying it's hardest to lift me off the ground. I could barely make way upwind, keeping the kite semi-high in the window to attempt to depower it further lifted me too much to be able to keep weight on my edges so I couldn't hold a line up wind. Dropping the kite low enough to get my edge to bite was just too much power and I couldn't hold it that way either. It actually felt like the line drag was holding the kite back in the window a little and keeping it in the power zone. I know this is way beyond the design conditions for the kite, but it was kind of interesting seeing the limits lol. I ended up not doing the race, screwed around for about 8 miles and called it quits, pretty disappointing

I was the only foil kite able to do anything. Another 6m access was in the air but the other guy couldn't hold it down, and someone had a 4m access up but they weren't able to do anything either. The only guys able to fly were on inflatables in the 6m range.

I will say the re-ride system is really comforting for these crazy conditions. As soon as you pull it, almost all pull is gone from the kite instantly, every time. If I didn't have it, I never would've even attempted to fly in those winds.

That's some nasty wind. I would have been on a 1.7m Sting and doing 40+ mph on the buggy in dry conditions with those winds.

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

I was attempting to do a 30 mile race yesterday, winds were 35 sustained gusting to 48mph on a wind meter. Lake surface was bumpy ice. Not exactly ideal conditions, but bolstered by Feyd's high wind review of the Access 6m kite I felt confident to give it a go. Well I didn't wipe out, but even that itty bitty 6m kite fully depowered was trying it's hardest to lift me off the ground. I could barely make way upwind, keeping the kite semi-high in the window to attempt to depower it further lifted me too much to be able to keep weight on my edges so I couldn't hold a line up wind. Dropping the kite low enough to get my edge to bite was just too much power and I couldn't hold it that way either. It actually felt like the line drag was holding the kite back in the window a little and keeping it in the power zone. I know this is way beyond the design conditions for the kite, but it was kind of interesting seeing the limits lol. I ended up not doing the race, screwed around for about 8 miles and called it quits, pretty disappointing I was the only foil kite able to do anything. Another 6m access was in the air but the other guy couldn't hold it down, and someone had a 4m access up but they weren't able to do anything either. The only guys able to fly were on inflatables in the 6m range. I will say the re-ride system is really comforting for these crazy conditions. As soon as you pull it, almost all pull is gone from the kite instantly, every time. If I didn't have it, I never would've even attempted to fly in those winds.

Wow. You really have some stones. I never had that kite in that much wind before. Interesting that the 4m was the same. I'm wondering if you reach some equilibrium of sort with a low AR kite with upwind performance with line drag as you said feeding into the equation.

I know that feeling well of the balance of low angle kite flying to get your edges to bite (either ski edges or wheels of doom skating) but too much power or high angle kite flying but not being able to gain purchase with your edges because of the upward pull. I'm certainly no hell fire rider (heck, look at my avatar) but what you are saying is much easier to pull off with a buggy than on skis or skates.

Glad you had the Re-Ride; I bet that saved your butt more than once, not the least being when it was time to pack up. Man, those winds must have been nukin! :o

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad   I was attempting to do a 30 mile race yesterday, winds were 35 sustained gusting to 48mph on a wind meter. Lake surface was bumpy ice. Not exactly ideal conditions, but bolstered by Feyd's high wind review of the Access 6m kite I felt confident to give it a go. Well I didn't wipe out, but even that itty bitty 6m kite fully depowered was trying it's hardest to lift me off the ground. I could barely make way upwind, keeping the kite semi-high in the window to attempt to depower it further lifted me too much to be able to keep weight on my edges so I couldn't hold a line up wind. Dropping the kite low enough to get my edge to bite was just too much power and I couldn't hold it that way either. It actually felt like the line drag was holding the kite back in the window a little and keeping it in the power zone. I know this is way beyond the design conditions for the kite, but it was kind of interesting seeing the limits lol. I ended up not doing the race, screwed around for about 8 miles and called it quits, pretty disappointing I was the only foil kite able to do anything. Another 6m access was in the air but the other guy couldn't hold it down, and someone had a 4m access up but they weren't able to do anything either. The only guys able to fly were on inflatables in the 6m range. I will say the re-ride system is really comforting for these crazy conditions. As soon as you pull it, almost all pull is gone from the kite instantly, every time. If I didn't have it, I never would've even attempted to fly in those winds. Wow. You really have some stones. I never had that kite in that much wind before. Interesting that the 4m was the same. I'm wondering if you reach some equilibrium of sort with a low AR kite with upwind performance with line drag as you said feeding into the equation. I know that feeling well of the balance of low angle kite flying to get your edges to bite (either ski edges or wheels of doom skating) but too much power or high angle kite flying but not being able to gain purchase with your edges because of the upward pull. I'm certainly no hell fire rider (heck, look at my avatar) but what you are saying is much easier to pull off with a buggy than on skis or skates. Glad you had the Re-Ride; I bet that saved your butt more than once, not the least being when it was time to pack up. Man, those winds must have been nukin! :o

Haha yeah it was insane. I think it was a college kid on the 4m, not sure of his skill level (though mine is minimal too) and I probably had a good 40lbs on him to hold things down. I think he got things twisted, maybe with the re-ride I dunno.

I actually got a pretty spectacular twist/knot myself after deploying the re-ride. I had to use it and didn't have an ice screw with me (whoops) and ended up skiing a short distance back to my anchor with the kite blowing behind me. It took a solid 45 minutes to untangle the rats nest of a bridle, and then getting the twist out of the lines.

When I was un-doing the mess I noticed one of the bridle lines was cut/worn/broke. The core was still in tact but the cover was split open. I flew the kite anyway, but I'll need to replace that bridle somehow.

That was about double the wind speed of anything I'd flown in before up to that point I knew there were people around to help out if things really went to #@%$#!. I managed a new personal best of 41 mph. If I could've been less powered up with a smaller kite or lower wind speed, I easily could've hit 50mph. As it was I felt just too on edge to push it

" even that itty bitty 6m kite fully depowered was trying it's hardest to lift me off the ground. I could barely make way upwind, keeping the kite semi-high in the window to attempt to depower it further lifted me too much to be able to keep weight on my edges so I couldn't hold a line up wind. Dropping the kite low enough to get my edge to bite was just too much power and I couldn't hold it that way either."

In winds that high you keep the kite low. Seems counter intuitive I know. But controling the power of the kite requires being able to edge against it. You can't do that if the kite is high in the window. And high placement means potential for lofting.

Low, edges driving, bring the kite into the front of the window with some slight drive upwind to kill the power.

The 4m, if it's a 2014 or newer should have been perfectly fine in those conditions. I'd suspect the rider was not checked out on how to make the best use of the 4m.

You should always carry an ice screw. Especially in Gonzo conditions. Makes things a lot less sketch when you need to work on the kite or land in an emergency. That said, if you are out w/o the screw, a reride is your best friend. Rescue wrap the 5th to the loop and then wrap the rest of the lines, bringing the kite to you. Strap it and do the skate of shame. (Always carry your strap) Ice is snaggy, skating and dragging can cause problems.

Congrats on the new personal best.:D

> The only guys able to fly were on inflatables in the 6m range.

This is the key sentence of your post. A (very) small LEI allows you to fly in those conditions, very comfortably and safely (by comparison), once you learn how to handle inflatables (there are some specific skills, not hard to learn). I do like to be able to keep the kite near the zenith, because that allows me to go very slowly if I so wish (on hardpack, bumpy ice, even downwind). Obviously you must be on a small kite with a lot of depower to avoid getting lofted. As far as I'm concerned... when it blows like that, it's either LEI or nothing.

Quote: Originally posted by br44

> The only guys able to fly were on inflatables in the 6m range. This is the key sentence of your post. A (very) small LEI allows you to fly in those conditions, very comfortably and safely (by comparison), once you learn how to handle inflatables (there are some specific skills, not hard to learn). I do like to be able to keep the kite near the zenith, because that allows me to go very slowly if I so wish (on hardpack, bumpy ice, even downwind). Obviously you must be on a small kite with a lot of depower to avoid getting lofted. As far as I'm concerned... when it blows like that, it's either LEI or nothing.

Yup it was kind of eye opening. The LEI guys said it was half and half between rideable and overpowered in the gusts. They were sure hauling ass and a few guys were throwing some jumps in (just to illustrate how in control they were).

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

In winds that high you keep the kite low. Seems counter intuitive I know. But controling the power of the kite requires being able to edge against it. You can't do that if the kite is high in the window. And high placement means potential for lofting. Low, edges driving, bring the kite into the front of the window with some slight drive upwind to kill the power. Congrats on the new personal best.:D

I was able to work my upwind with the kite fairly low but only if I was moving really really slowly. As soon as I got any meaningful forward speed (15-20mph?) the kite would fall back in the window even with me edging for dear life, and then I'd start skipping across the ice on my edges lol. But you're right, that was really my only hope. Another part of the problem is my leg strength wasn't there to hold myself with that amount of power. Put my new 216cm downhill race skis to the test, they grip like crazy but you need the legs to use them :D Always something!

I wish I could've tried one of the LEIs or even the 4m access, but it was such a #@%$#! show I didn't want to use someone elses gear in those conditions.

Today my backyard lake had 8mph winds and deep powdery snow. I LOVE chrono weather.

The key issue is your edging. Not uncommon btw. Your weight has well. In those winds I would be perfectly happy on the 6m Access. But I'm 210 lbs and can drive an edge.

In my estimation the key difference in the LEI vs. Access here is the PA. Those small leis have small PA so sure a 6m LEI is going to be easier in those conditions than the 6m Access. The 4m would have treated you better. But it would be a lot less useful in lower winds.

We don't set kites at 12:00 here. Our gusts don't allow it. Gust rolls through, window expands, loft then drop. 10-11 or 1-2. Get pulled sideways not up.

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

The key issue is your edging. Not uncommon btw. Your weight has well. In those winds I would be perfectly happy on the 6m Access. But I'm 210 lbs and can drive an edge. In my estimation the key difference in the LEI vs. Access here is the PA. Those small leis have small PA so sure a 6m LEI is going to be easier in those conditions than the 6m Access. The 4m would have treated you better. But it would be a lot less useful in lower winds. We don't set kites at 12:00 here. Our gusts don't allow it. Gust rolls through, window expands, loft then drop. 10-11 or 1-2. Get pulled sideways not up.

I'll go with leg strength on this one I'm like 6'4 230lbs. Would've been great to see what an experienced kiter could've done

Saturday's events were pretty much all canceled due to lack of wind, and nobody really showed up. We had 3-5mph and some gusts up to 6 mph in the afternoon. I put 20 miles on the chrono hitting 30mph in those conditions. Definitely more my style of flying :D There was another guy out with a 17m R1, and it looked like he was having an ever so slightly easier time, the kite material must be just a little lighter. Either way, once you were moving it was total park and ride.

HEHEHE yes true, you have the ballast. :D Just need the experience. And going out in those winds, difficult yes, still grew your experience.


There is a certain guilty satisfaction to riding a Chrono is event cancelling winds.

The R1 V1 is made of the same stuff as your Chrono. The V2 is the same stuff as a Chrono UL. It's simply a step up in performance over the Chrono. And not nearly as easy to fly or user friendly but hen you learn all the little quirks, it's an amazing kite.

When it get's sub 4 kts Molly will ride the 18m Chrono V2 UL. I'll grab the 17m R1.

FWIW, Chrono V2 vs V2 UL, Very simillar perfromance in terms of wind range but UL will inflate faster and turn faster. Also hangs a bit longer in wind drops and shifts. But for general light wind riding, they are pretty much on par IMO.

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

HEHEHE yes true, you have the ballast. :D Just need the experience. And going out in those winds, difficult yes, still grew your experience. There is a certain guilty satisfaction to riding a Chrono is event cancelling winds. The R1 V1 is made of the same stuff as your Chrono. The V2 is the same stuff as a Chrono UL. It's simply a step up in performance over the Chrono. And not nearly as easy to fly or user friendly but hen you learn all the little quirks, it's an amazing kite. When it get's sub 4 kts Molly will ride the 18m Chrono V2 UL. I'll grab the 17m R1. FWIW, Chrono V2 vs V2 UL, Very simillar perfromance in terms of wind range but UL will inflate faster and turn faster. Also hangs a bit longer in wind drops and shifts. But for general light wind riding, they are pretty much on par IMO.

Right on. And yeah I gained a lot of experience both days. The high wind thing was an eye opener but I'm not going to think twice about going out next time it's blowing 20-30mph, especially with snow to play in. Definitely expanded my comfort zone by a wide margin.

And on the chrono in light wind I tried doing some course racing with the guy on the r1. We were actually almost on par speed wise, but I was stalling the kite on my down wind turns. I think I was turning the kite first, and then turning my skis and that made me over fly the kite. Almost needed to initiate my turn on skis and then have the kite follow behind me

Yeah Bill, those were challenging conditions for all of us! Big winds plus bare ice made it tough. Thank God others were there to help launch & land. Like Chris Krug mentioned, inflatables generally have a smaller PA compared to foils of the same size. Like br44 said, they have MASSIVE depower capability in both the trim strap and the bar throw. I just bought that 6m Rally I was on and was unsure if I would ever get to use it. Lucky I did or I probably would've sat the race out. I love foils just as well, but days like Sunday is where those kites really shine.

I put my new experience to good use today. It was blowing 15 maybe gusting to 20, conditions that would've scared me on to a small kite previously. I took out the 10m Access and had a freaking riot. Fully powered up, even trimmed in the depower and was still getting some decent jumps in. Never knew the access could be so floaty! When you ask it to jump, it certainly delivers. Hit 37mph and that was in deep snow with a thick top layer that I was sinking in to, definitely not fast snow. Finally starting to "get it."

Now if only I could get my ski boots to fit right... foot pain is getting out of hand. I think it's a lack of calf support, it's making my feet really unstable and everything below the knee feels like it's on fire. It's starting to hold me back from taking things to the next level

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

I put my new experience to good use today. It was blowing 15 maybe gusting to 20, conditions that would've scared me on to a small kite previously. I took out the 10m Access and had a freaking riot. Fully powered up, even trimmed in the depower and was still getting some decent jumps in. Never knew the access could be so floaty! When you ask it to jump, it certainly delivers. Hit 37mph and that was in deep snow with a thick top layer that I was sinking in to, definitely not fast snow. Finally starting to "get it." Now if only I could get my ski boots to fit right... foot pain is getting out of hand. I think it's a lack of calf support, it's making my feet really unstable and everything below the knee feels like it's on fire. It's starting to hold me back from taking things to the next level

Cool that you are digging your Access kites and putting them to great use in these past days. As for your boots, yes, most certainly think about their fit and even if they are the right size, width, last, etc. Are you anywhere near a decent ski shop that has a dedicated boot fitter on staff? Even if you didn't buy your boots there for a reasonable fee most guys will work with you and see if you can salvage your current boots. There is no way a well fit boot should make your legs feel like that.

Boots, as you are coming to realize, are the cornerstone to skiing. If they fit and are the right tool for the job everything can come together. The wrong ones can screw up and ruin the best of days. Get your boots right and so much else will follow.

For the sort of conditions you are finding yourself in you would be well served with a racing boot in (at least) a 130 stiffness. Keeping you kite low and cranking your edges on ice with a long DH ski is really going to require a boot that can handle that sort of lateral force. If the boot is soft no amount of cranking down on the buckles is going to help. What it will do you are already experiencing. If you want to crank your edges like a dog in full dangle you're going to need boots designed for the job, or if you own such boots then get them fit professionally.

Good luck!!

Yeah I might be doing some boot shopping this spring. I have Technica chochise 90's and I can definitely over flex the boot without trying too hard. It's also just a 3 buckle with power strap and doesn't go very far up my calf. I don't think there are any "real" boot fitters around here but I'll ask around.

Semi-related, is a more upright position in the boot a thing to look for? I've noticed when I'm really leaning over driving the kite, I'm almost squatting more on the back of the skis, where the boots are asking me to lean forward over the front of the skis. On a ski hill the forward lean is fine, but on flat ground I feel like a more vertical boot would work better but I don't even know if that's a thing.

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Yeah I might be doing some boot shopping this spring. I have Technica chochise 90's and I can definitely over flex the boot without trying too hard. It's also just a 3 buckle with power strap and doesn't go very far up my calf. I don't think there are any "real" boot fitters around here but I'll ask around. Semi-related, is a more upright position in the boot a thing to look for? I've noticed when I'm really leaning over driving the kite, I'm almost squatting more on the back of the skis, where the boots are asking me to lean forward over the front of the skis. On a ski hill the forward lean is fine, but on flat ground I feel like a more vertical boot would work better but I don't even know if that's a thing.

Technica Chochise 90's in a 3 buckle is WAY off what you want to be in. As you are no doubt aware, different boot companies produce boots of different volumes and with different lasts. Without a good boot fitter in the vicinity you are going to need to do some thinking about those issues. I'm a Technica man myself. That's not brand loyalty talking, that's fit talking. I have a long, medium volume foot with a narrow heel and that just seems to jive with Technica's general last. There are lots of great boot companies out there so as long as you go with one of the established brands you will be fine in the quality department. Fit is the key and is specific to your foot shape and volume.

Stiffness and buckles: You're in a 3-buckle 90. Nope, not going to cut it for what you want to be (and already are) doing. Four buckle with a big power strap and a 130 stiffness. Take a look at some of Chris Krug's photos for his lower body angulation; he's got it going on form wise. You're outside hip is dropped to the side and a little back, but you are not "in the back seat"; rather, you are balanced over the middle of the ski with maybe a touch of behind center bias. If you feel like you want to adjust the lean of your boots then you can fiddle with that a bit. The sorts of boots I'm describing (130s, 4 buckle, big power strap) are expert/racing boots and they will have a setting which presets the forward lean position from which you can flex it farther forward.

These expert/racing boots don't come cheap at list price. We're getting later in the season and you may be able to start seeing some getting marked down online. We (or I'm sure Chris) can chat offline to point you in the right direction. From what you are describing in terms of below-the-knee leg burn/pain, that sounds like classic ill-fitting noodle boot syndrome.

The upper leg pain you're experiencing? The cure for that comes next summer and fall in the gym or the barn or wherever else you can put heavy things on your shoulders and squat down again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Rest.... repeat. Again, again, again, again... Throw up. :barf: Repeat.....

Windstruck is right. People underestimate the importance of a good ski boot. IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF YOUR SKI EQUIPMENT. Seriously, without a good boot, nothing else matters, even the kite.

You can't perform if you can't drive the edge. You can't drive the edge if your boot is too soft. In your weight range, 90 flex is like skiing in bunny slippers. You need at least a 120 flex. 130 puts you in the sweet spot but for your weight 150 will really drive an edge. But only if you have the strength. 130, splits the difference.

No 3 buckle boots. 4 buckles and power strap.

On the kite, boots pack out quickly if you can get out fairly often. Don't be afraid to go with a "race" or "performance" fit. Find a good boot fitter or if there isn't one available, keep one thing in mind. If the boot goes on easy, and feels awesome in the shop, it's likely too big. The boot has to fit like a glove.

A good starting point is your street shoe size. For a quick and dirty race fit, drop down 2 sizes. I wear a size 10 street shoe, I ski a size 8 shell. Initially, it is tight as tight gets. One or two sessions though, and it packs out a bit. A race fit can only pack out to a point. Usually it is still snug but allows blood flow. For most people a performance fit does the job. Basically one size down from your street shoe.

When you put the boot on, feel how close your toes are to the end of the toe box. When you put the boot on, your toes should have some level of contact with the end of the boot. The misconception is that this indicates that the boot is too small. Often disregarding the boot immediately. ALWAYS BUCKLE THE BOOT COMPLETELY AND FLEX IT BEFORE YOU DECIDE IF IT FITS.

When the boot is on and your toes are touching the end, buckle it down. Stand up and give each boot a solid flex, driving your shin into the boot and crushing it. This will seat your heel into the heel pocket resulting in more room in the toe box. At this point you may still be touching the end of the boot but your little piggies will get blood flow and you won't be "clawing" the toe box, which is likely the cause of your current foot pain.

We should mention, always wear thin socks. Thick socks cut off blood flow.

In regards to forward angle. No, more upright is NOT what you want. Keep pressure in the cuff, DRIVE THE SHINS and you will drive the edge. Upright position is counter to this, and you definitely don't want to be in the back seat. NO TOILET TURNING. Driving the ski, whether on the hill of the ice, is the same. Even when cruising you drive the boot and edge (see pic)



Performance boots will have good forward lean.

But again, body positioning is pretty much the same. There may be occasional dropping of the hips in high power/high speed situations, akin to a tuck, but for the most part the dynamics involved are the same a gravity skiing. (see pic)

No toilet turning. Amen to that. :D

In the TMI department, is it OK that I was on the toilet when I read your post? :evil:

Haha you guys are awesome. I've been skiing since I was 3, pretty much lived on the hill during the winter months until I went away to college. Last year was the first year I've had my own equipment since the late 90's.

I measure between a 100-101cm last, nothing too extreme but I feel like I have a mildly high arch/midfoot. A 28.5 boot usually has my toes touching the end of the box until I flex forward all the way. I'll play around with every boot I can find in town to see how they fit. I'd like to try something like the Salomon X Pro 130 or X Max 130, doubt I can find it locally though.

Thanks for all the info and confirming my suspicions about crappy boot fit

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Haha you guys are awesome. I'd like to try something like the Salomon X Pro 130 or X Max 130...

You betcha. If the Salomon last works for you then the X Pro 130 looks ideal for your needs. I just looked them up and saw them on Backcountry for $700.

http://www.backcountry.com/salomon-x-pro-120-ski-boot-mens?C...

Both the shells and the liners are heat moldable which is great for dialing in the fit.

X pros can be had for less if you look around. $400 dollar ranges. Sizes are the hard part. If you have a wide or high instep the Salomons are a good choice. If you have more of a "normal" foot like mine you can't go wrong with a Rossi Alltrack 130. They are about $350-400 if you search around. I've been really happy with mine. Better than the many versions of Bandits I've ridden over the years and I loved my bandits.

Remember, size to the bigger foot (usually one's left. No kidding). You can always suck up extra volume vs. making it.

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

The key issue is your edging. Not uncommon btw. Your weight has well. In those winds I would be perfectly happy on the 6m Access. But I'm 210 lbs and can drive an edge. In my estimation the key difference in the LEI vs. Access here is the PA. Those small leis have small PA so sure a 6m LEI is going to be easier in those conditions than the 6m Access. The 4m would have treated you better. But it would be a lot less useful in lower winds. We don't set kites at 12:00 here. Our gusts don't allow it. Gust rolls through, window expands, loft then drop. 10-11 or 1-2. Get pulled sideways not up.

Projected area - sure. One key difference though is that the rigidity of the wing, enforced by the pressure in the tubes, allows LEIs to be flown at very low angles of attack. Try the same thing on a foil (you can't, the bridle will not allow it) and the leading edge will collapse on the spot, followed by a kaboom shortly after. This is where the huge depower of the inflatables comes from, and how you can get away with a small LEI near 12:00 in very gusty winds, which I would not recommend but is doable should you want to go slowly.