Dear learned kite kolleagues,

I'd be very grateful for the expertise of the collective: I'm choosing a kite specifically for landboarding, with a view to learning freestyle. I weigh about 155lb/70kg and fly inland, mostly on open fields where winds average roughly 10mph, but it's often gusty

I'm a beginner and am pretty comfortable flying a 3m trainer kite on handles, and also using it to cruise around on a mountainboard/ATB when conditions permit. From experience in other sports I'm pretty certain I'll be concentrating on learning freestyle tricks, so I need some controlled lift.

Now it's decision time about a kite! Cost is a concern, and I don't want to buy something I won't use in later years. If you were in my shoes, would you:

A) Go the usual step of buying a beginner/intermediate fixed-bridle that has some lift, like a 5.5m Peter Lynn Twister?
B) Go for far cheaper option (and perhaps risk moderate amounts of death) by buying a second-hand Flexifoil Blade and using it cautiously?
C) Skip the above, max out the budget and go straight to depower by buying a used 8m Ozone Access (I've found good deals for not that much more than the cost of a Twister + crossover bar)
D) Something else?

Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated!

While the Access doesn't have as much lift as other kites more geared for landboarding, it does have lift if you send it aggressively and it will do well inland in gusts. I would go that route unless there are lots of lulls that accompany gusts. Fixed bridle kites are easier to pump in lulls than are depowers. If there are lots of lulls FBs may be your better bet but if there is relatively constant wind which gusts then I'd go Access. It will have a large range and keep you safeish while learning.

controlled lift is up to the pilot not the kite...
blades...will humble a person, in gusts...well you dont want to know about that
forget the crossover setup...straight dp or fb or forget about up down and controlled in your future
7.5- 9m dp / 9- 13 ARC/ 5- 7.5 fb any will be fine for getting the crap beat out of you, i mean next step
dont get hung up on the models you mentioned and no need to max out $$ now
i understand the want of an old blade...seams you can always get one...or leave it in the closet till spring
dont rush the freestyle...your gonna be plenty busy just flying

imo

if you want to ride stand up and jump then you want a depower kite.

You will NEED more than one size. Buy a smaller one to learn the ropes and ad a bigger one when ready to boost big,

Thanks so much for all the advice. There aren't too many complete lulls in the wind, so it's sounding like an Access could be a good way to learn the basics in varied conditions if I'm careful. Perhaps its control bar could be used with a second DP in future? That might help justify the expense.

I take the point about controlled lift and pilot skill though. I'm not looking to rush into big jumps and appreciate there's lots to learn first.

If u plan to go freestlye and want a kite that you wont outgrow skip the Ozone access and HQ apex they are more of a beginner low lift kites and not good for freestyle at all . Go for depower something like a ozone frenzy, hq montana or if u are interested in closed cell an ozone hyperlink or hq matrix. 8m probally wont get u moving in 10mph on a field u probally will need a 10m.

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7.5- 9m dp / 9- 13 ARC/ 5- 7.5 fb any will be fine for getting the crap beat out of you, i mean next step

Since I'm starting out as well (though I don't have too much of an interest in boosting at this point - at my age I know what landing hard feels like...), I can add a little clarification to abkayaks list. I changed my mind every 5 seconds about what kite I should get. Somehow I've acquired a bunch in the last few months... Here are a few to look out for:

7.5- 9m dp
HQ Apex
Ozone Access
Gin Eskimo (No US presence unfortunately, but you can ask them if they'll ship. They sell used on their site - worth checking out - I absolutely love mine)
PL Lynx
intermediate/more lift:
Frenzy
PL Lepoard
HQ Montana

Single surface - for boosting you probably don't want these, but they do eat up gusts from what I understand. The bridles look crazy. But lots of bug folks swear by em... they pack and launch super easily...
Peak
LongStar

water and land:
HQ Matrixx
Flysurfer Speed (v3 and up)

Arc:
Charger 2 (or 3), top choice. At your weight I think 10 or 12m would be fine. I love my 10, but would probably get more use on a 12 or 15.

Other folks here love their Phantoms, I think because they're stable.

FB - abkayak is the FB king - I won't comment on those. I do have to say, after getting unceremoniously dumped on the beach last week - I'm much much more comfortable on DP. Much easier to dump speed and control in higher winds. Go for FB if you're a hell warrior..

So in the last few months, I've seen almost no used Access for sale - they're supposed to be great - if you find one at a reasonable price, go for it. Apex seems to be the easiest to find. Also great kite to start off with. Eskimo if you can find one would be an awesome begin/intermediate. I haven't seen any used Lynx, but I think they are in the same family as Access/Apex. And PL makes great kites.

Chargers pop up for sale every once in a while. Look here and on Arcusers - I think there are a couple for sale right now. First kite I bought. Love mine. Super simple to set up and fly - some folks don't like that you have to let them fill with air, but so far I've not found it to be a problem (on the beach). Inland lots of folks use a leaf blower or mattress pump if there is no wind close to the ground. The wind range is massive on an arc, but my biggest problem is the low end. Arcs are not light wind kites, so you will need somewhere around 10-15 to get them going properly. Not sure that fits your conditions. But they do eat up gusts. Also - the bigger arcs are for bigger folks, not lighter winds (like most other kites). You will never outgrow an arc. Look for CTB videos if you want to see what an expert can do on a mountainboard and an arc...

I would start with one of those. When you're ready for big boosts, probably a Speed or Charger or Leopard. Start saving up now - as most folks here like to say... it's an addiction.

Quote:

Perhaps its control bar could be used with a second DP in future? That might help justify the expense.

I think we all started out thinking that... you're more than likely best off getting bars with your kites. Folks usually sell them together (used) anyway. With the kites mentioned, it's easiest to leave the bar attached so there's less chance of the bridles getting twisted/tangled.

What country are you in, btw - that makes a difference as to what kites show up second hand...

That list is great! I was aware of some, but I hadn't heard of Gin Kites and I'll definitely look into them some more. I'm intrigued by the Eskimo (9m), but I wonder if it might be more difficult to handle than a similar sized Access or PL Lynx?

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I think we all started out thinking that... you're more than likely best off getting bars with your kites... What country are you in, btw - that makes a difference as to what kites show up second hand

I'm just going to accept it's an expensive hobby! I'm based in the UK, but have friends who go back and forth between here and the US, so I can keep an eye on things that are for sale both in Europe and across the pond.

Ah, that makes things way easier for you! There are a ton of folks doing ATB and buggy in the UK - best thing you can do is try to hook up with a few of them. I completely understand the burning desire to own your kite, so the ones I mentioned would be great candidates. But if you can find some buggiers/boarders to hang with it will make your progression a lot easier/safer, and you will get to try a bunch of equipment so you know what you need/don't need.
My initial feeling is the Eskimo is really easy to handle. B-Roc (above) would be the best to chip in on Gins. I haven't flown a lot of the other kites, but my guess would be it is closer to a frenzy than an Access (higher aspect), but I haven't seen any behavior so far that would make me think it would be difficult to fly, or bad to start on. I wouldn't get too fixated on any single one of these kites, they are all good, get one in the right size for your conditions/weight and you will love it. If you outgrow it, there is a big second hand market, sell it to the next person in line and get your next kite. You will also undoubtedly put some wear and tear on your first kite while you're learning, so keep that in mind as well.

So I just went to the Gin site, and I don't see Eskimos for sale any more, except in the sale section. I wonder if they're replacing it with the single surface Shaman? That would really suck, but maybe look for good deals 2nd hand if that's the case... They're doing the 9m new for 1/2 price on the site...

.

M.p u2u sent

If you are pretty sure you're focus is going to be Mountain Boarding with a look to freestyle, I think you'll find a trend with the folks really committed to doing that stuff - that they all tend to be riding larger closed cell kites like the Flysurfer Speed and HQ Matrixx.

These kites tend to be big and floaty, which has a couple benefits. Their lift takes some of the weight off the wheels and allows you to roll along more smoothly on bumpy terrain. Floaty kites with lots of hangtime are also preferable for mountain boards as you don't want a kite that pops you up and then drops you hard. For that reason alone, I personally would stay away from the Blade. A kite like the Access or Apex, while they will be cheaper now, I think you will find they do not have the lift you want for getting the weight off the wheels and for future jumps.

The last week I've been spending quite a bit of time on a mountain board with the new Montana X and am finding it also makes a great ATB kite. Very stable reassuring kite that doesn't take much concentration, but also great float and gentle landings.

Closed cell foils can be a pain to stake out when learning on your own. I'd advise against them. I had a Pulse 2 and that kite routinely popped ground stakes as it held way too much power when on the ground. Great when in the air but a nightmare on the ground especially when in its mid to upper limit.

I'm a buggy rider but I also flew those same conditions in Croydon south London for 20yrs. If your wind location is anything like mine then you'll have a God switch, constant gusts and frequent change in wind direction.

I would strongly advice, if you can, to get to the beach, either the south coast or over in the west for the cleanest winds and smoothest hard-packed sand. Your progression will be super-charged.

A Twister on a crossover is something Ive tried. Can't recommend it, it doesn't work as nicely as the movies show. It is the only bar to try a twister on but in gusts it's still a twister.
I've tried 3 5.5 and 7.7. On handles it's doable, but the bar a no for me.
Just to help to un consider that option.

We all wish we had some of the money back that we paid trying to figure out which kite?
If you buy used and in very good to excellent condition, you won't take much of a hit in the divorce. :bird:

Thanks everyone for the excellent and thoughtful advice for me starting out.

I'm coming round to the idea that there are difficulties in trying to use any FB to learn freestyle in the gusty conditions where I live. So it's not going to be worth buying a higher-performance, lifty FB at my current level (particularly as many can be clumsy on a bar).

I'm also realising that even if I spend money on a beginner-friendly depower now, there is a risk that I'll end up with something expensive that's not ideal for my likely long-term use, because I don't have personal experience with them.

So... after all that, I've decided to delay the decision! I'm going to take Jeff's advice and look to get more experience trying other people's equipment when I can. Also, maybe have a lesson, and generally take more time to practice with the trainer kite on handles (which can still pull pretty fast in the right winds).

When I'm starting to get bored I'll make a decision about a small/med depower. And I'll have a much better idea what to look for because of this thread!

Accept that no single kite makes a perfect quiver.

One of the best approaches is to shop for a quality kite that is a popular model USED.
When you have gotten all you can out of that kite you may want to keep it and by another size to compliment it. If not you can likely move it on for minimal loss. Shipping and maybe a bit for wear and tear.

Resale of quality popular kites isn't too tough. Buy junk and you will be stuck with it or have to sell at a big loss.

Do you have a harness? If not get one and start hooking in with your trainer.

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So it's not going to be worth buying a higher-performance, lifty FB at my current level (particularly as many can be clumsy on a bar).

You are making the right decision. My first non-trainer kite was a moderately lifty FB, a HQ Crossfire. I wouldn't dream of putting that kite on a bar, because when a gust catches it, it goes straight up and you want to be able to let the handles just fly right out of your hands. It was a good deal but it taught me a lot of painful lessons. With so many used depowers on the market today I would never recommend a FB kite to a beginner now.

I still have the Crossfire but if I do fly it it's out of nostalgia, and usually end up with exhausted arms because I will not hook in with it. A depower has such a wider wind range and is far safer, and you will find yourself going bigger with a depower anyways because you know how high you are going. Send an FB kite hard and catch a gust at the same time, and you are in trouble pretty fast with the bad kind of learning experience.

The only FB kites I fly now are my NPWs and even of them, my large NPW has a UDS depower system on it. And they are not freestyle kites at all, they are for cruising.

No single kite makes a quiver but you will need a lot less depower kites than you would FB. Honestly, my pair of Apex 3s cover the vast majority of wind conditions available to me, and make up probably 90% of my flight time since I bought them.

Quote: Originally posted by rectifier

Quote: No single kite makes a quiver but you will need a lot less depower kites than you would FB. Honestly, my pair of Apex 3s cover the vast majority of wind conditions available to me, and make up probably 90% of my flight time since I bought them. I agree with rectifier completely regarding how one can get away with a two kite DP quiver and cover most conditions. In the oldy but goody video below I demonstrate this by flying a 6m and 12m Peak-2 on the same day back to back, making the point that both kites have such large overlap that the upper reaches of one crosses over the lower reaches of the other.

Where are you in the UK? As suggested earlier, you need to get out and make friends with some land boarders. They'll know exactly what kites are currently best for you, after all your requirements are not that different than everyone else's at this stage. I'd stay away from formal lessons, I don't think there's anyone offering them these days anyway. However, if you show up at your local flying site and show some enthusiasm, you'll get all the lessons you need for free. And more kite advice than your wallet can stand.

Right now in the UK it's a little tough because we've got winter storms. Seems like the wind has been blowing 35mph gusting to 50 for weeks. Once the wind settles down, find out the nearest field where boarders hang out and start hanging out and flying every chance. In the south? Try Camber Sands. Every decent weekend day there will be boarders there. In London? Try the fields around Wormwood Scrubs. I met some Polish dudes who told me they love flying there. Further north I'm not so sure about.

I am partial to Montanas as far as open cell depower goes. I haven't flown very many others in that category. /pl phannies are sooooooo butter and I do enjoy the older FS Pulse as far as a beginning depower.