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Quote: Originally posted by Snoboarder

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Thanks
So i mostly kite snow and water on lei's. Went to wbb and rode my atb for a bit and was hooked again. Want to get a kite i can throw out and ride. No pumping. Gusty inland winds. Freeride/freestyle. Thinking charger, pansh a15 or aurora. Any opinions?

You'll never be disappointed with purchasing an ARC. Pansh is a Fansy word for TRASH. Some will argue in favor for Pansh....But. Pansh can be hit or miss on quality so why risk it, or waste your time.

Because we are talking a new kite vs a used kite for about the same money with the discount. And there have been good reviews of the new pansh kites ive listed. Was looking for opinions from someone that might have experience with both.

There are a lot of arguments regarding Pansh and their products that have been well covered elsewhere on this forum. But that's not what you asked about.

My experience with them and their A15 is positive.

After several conversations with mainekite2 in the fall of 2016, since he already had Pansh closed cell kites, I ordered a 15m A15 KO and had it delivered directly to WBB.

Short version: took it out of the box and flew it. No adjustments and solid build.

Long version: took it out of the box, tightened several of the small bridle attachment points (I think they're the same as Flysurfers little attachment lines), checked over the material and stitching - wasn't able to find a blemish or bad seam anywhere; connected my 5-line bar and flew it. (Thanks for the set-up help Craig)

No surprises: quick shipping; exactly as advertised; great all-inclusive price (tax, duties, and shipping); good build quality; super stable through its wind range; good depower (although I'd like to be able to completely dump the power like an LEI); and material that rejects the velcro-sand that Wildwood is known for.

It's my go-to kite for low wind buggying. Lots of torque, great upwind, and did I mention that it's stable in both smooth and gusty air? Turn rate isn't as quick as I'd like, but as a 15m kite it's only slightly slower than my 11m Lynx.

But as a closed-cell FB, the added time to deflate and pack such a large kite may be an issue for you. Then, again, it's no different from the time it takes to set-up an ARC and it's easier to land. And there's no pumping.

BUT:
If you're looking for a real gust-muncher, I don't think you can beat an ARC.
Price-wise, a used ARC RTF will likely be slightly less expensive than an A15 or Aurora but it won't have that new-kite krispyness.

Quote: Originally posted by Snoboarder

Because we are talking a new kite vs a used kite for about the same money with the discount.

There is a reason for that.

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

There is a reason for that.

I thought we'd covered that.
Out of curiosity John, what's your recent experience with the new kites from Pansh? And, more specifically, the A15 or Aurora which were the initial question?
Your reasons for disliking Pansh may be valid, but they don't appear to contribute to Snoborders question.

I have not flown a Pansh. I only know them from what i have heard on here. I have and like my arcs and they are good in gusts. The ground work with arcs takes a bit of understanding and practice.

I'd lean towards the Charger because you know what you are going to get.(and i like arcs!)

Well i had a charger when they first came out. Out of the bag the line set was off, bar wasnt right and had a bad first experience hence why i went back to lei. So the knowing what you get dosent really hold water with me. Just want to hear from people that have experience. Whats the difference between the charger versions?

Charger over Pansh for anything gusty and requiring stability and wide depower range. And for build quality, longevity and/or resale value.

The Pansh A15 is the closest comparison in flight quality, especially stability. But this can vary given the wide range of build quality that can be found in Pansh.
Here's footage of one that I purchased for testing purposes. It had some issues at first but some tuning of the bridle took care of it and it actually flies quit well.

https://youtu.be/r_BMmN30G_4



Charger 1. High Performance Arc. Requires more active piloting than earlier arcs. The most aggressive of the Charger line up. My favorite Charger version. A great kite but was plagued by manufacturing issues and given a bad reputation as a result.

Charger 2. A tuned down version of the Charger 1. Simpler VPC, less nimble, less twitchy and less aggressive lift. "Plumper" A great kite, flies much like a Synergy series. Honestly, think Synergy 2 is a better name for it.

Charger 3. (See Charger 2) Same kite, lighter materials.

Here's some Charger 1 footage...

https://youtu.be/E1LNyyfpKzc

Quote: Originally posted by Snoboarder

Thinking charger, pansh a15 or aurora. Any opinions?

Hiaguy: Actually he asked for opinions. I gave Mine. Sorry if you didn't like it. About a year ago a friend purchased an A15. brought it over to the coast so we could get it set up and give it a go. That low sticker price is very enticing even knowing their reputation. But... build quality was NOTHING compared to virtually anything that says Peter Lynn on it. The bar and lines were crap. so we hooked it up to a Peter Lynn Navigator bar. We struggled with getting the bridling adjusted properly. once everything was tweaked properly it flew ok. But the headache of getting it to fly "OK" IMO wasn't worth the savings. But since you tried to call me out on it and Invalidate my opinion. I've also flown the Pansh Legend, Atom, Blaze, And Ace. all of which were garbage IMO compared to similar PL kites I've flown. In fact i got a 2.0 Legend that is destined for the burn pile. I would never give that kite to someone else. its too dangerous. your experience with Pansh was clearly different then mine. But that doesn't give you the right to simply dismiss my experience or try to invalidate my opinion. I also flown the Charger, Venom, Venom2, Phantom2. I loved ARC's for a long time. still do. I would never compare an ARC or any other PL kite to a Pansh. it's like comparing a Kia Amanti to a Mercedes Benz. they're both cars, they're both sedans, they both share similar styling lines. but they are NOT the same and i don't have to drive them to know there is a significant difference in quality and performance.

Snoboarder: I agree with everything Feyd said. He's right on the money. he is also probably one of the most accomplished pilots on here. I would give his opinion serious weight. I apologize for not elaborating on my original post. The ARC's are excellent kites for gusty conditions. hands down. my last ARC i recently sold was a 15M Phantom 2. not as aggressive as a charger but better upwind IMO. the only reason i dont fly Arcs these days is that they don't fit my riding style. i'm a coastal dweller so gusty wind is a non issue for me. so i typically fly high AR race kites and like to go fast. You asked for opinions and mine would be the charger all day long. But it would seem that you already had a developed opinion when you posted and are simply looking for validation to buy a Pansh. More power to you. maybe you'll get lucky and get a good one.

I do not really have an opinion either way. I have had my experience with a charger which was not good by any means. I know what its like to have a kite not perform out of the bag. I want to hear peoples experiences with those kites. For what its worth i would probably rather be flying an lei, but as im older and looking for a quick atb shesh after work i need something a little faster to getin the air. Im going to have to compromise sum to get that. Pansh to PL IMO is like chevy and ford. Neither is on flysurfer level so.... Im currently looking for a charger and if i find one at a good deal i may go that way. If not a may do the a15. Im sure there ar horror stories with both kites. It comes down to the stability of the a15 really. The arcs are known for theirs but i think may give up some low end compaired to an equal size foil just as a c kite and bow kite. Like i said i just want to hear peoples experiences with both. Thanks to all that have posted.

I expect you have your pump time down.
Big low wind closed cell kites waste as much or more time. Especially if the wind picks up.

The A15 may inflate easy but pack up can be slow. Try to speed it up and you get bridle issues.

Arcs take as long as pumping just to deflate. Take forever to inflate in super low wind.

If you are happy with LEI I understand many are great gust munchers? I am not clear why you wouldn't stick with LEI.

While I waited for the late release of the Charger I had my Synergy to demo out. I sold my Chargers and stuck with Synergy.

Thanks for your opinion blade but for one im not looking for a low wind kite. If the winds are so low ill have a problem inflating an arc i wont be kiting.Second im looking to get the kite up quickly not as worried about pack up so thats a non issue.

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

In fact i got a 2.0 Legend that is destined for the burn pile. I would never give that kite to someone else. its too dangerous.

I have a have a 4.5 legend, it was actually my first kite. I would not really call that thing dangerous, it is pretty slow and has reduced lift. I let my friends fly it in low winds since I don't mind if they beat it up. If you seriously considering destroying it, I'm sure someone on here would gladly take it as a beater. My 4.5 could use a little brother.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Yes pansh makes cheap kites, and yes some need tuning to fly. Someone local around here was trying to sell an original pansh Aurora for cheap because it did not fly and he had no idea how to fix it. That being said they seem to have gotten better with the A15 and Aurora II's because I have heard alot of good about them. And only $400 for a brand new 15m? Sounds like a great deal. I was actually contemplating getting one awhile back, but the fear of a lemon stopped me.

A used flysurfer speed 3 with a bar can be had for about $6-700, maybe $500 if you have patience, which is not too much more than the A15 with a bar( I would not recommend the pansh bar), and you know you are getting the quality of flysurfer. The A15 is pretty much a lesser copy of a speed 3, with the only thing it is better at is stability.

The charger is another can of worms. As Feyd mentioned they had manufacturering issues that caused them to hand clap and not fly. Coupled with twitchiness, very fast turning, and loss of some arc stability, alot of Arc flyers felt alienated and moved away from arcs.
A solution was eventually found to fix the clapping and tame the beast a bit but the damage was already done.

Now probably the question you should be asking, what do want to do with the kite? Up until this weekend I had a set of guerillas I would take out in the buggy and they were so slow and low performance, but that's what I like in the buggy. On a board though I am all about performance and recently got a 12m charger and it's a hoot. I had a venom before that but I wanted more performance and the charger delivers, at the expense of stability and bar feel. It's a big game of trade offs so a better question would be what do you want from a kite, since I think we are comparing apples to oranges here.

Quote: Originally posted by Snoboarder

Thanks So i mostly kite snow and water on lei's. Went to wbb and rode my atb for a bit and was hooked again. Want to get a kite i can throw out and ride. No pumping. Gusty inland winds. Freeride/freestyle. Thinking charger, pansh a15 or aurora. Any opinions?

The best advice you will get for gusty inland wind is from someone that lives inland.

I would consider a flysurfer peak. I only have experience with the first generation which is fantastic for inland gusty wind.

It may not be a great kite for air time if that's what your after, but I personally wouldn't want to jump with ANY kite in inland gusty wind.

new vs used should never be the issue...its the kite itself
all kites are good kites once you experiance a bonding w/ them...unless they outright suck
im replacing a zipper on my Adam that shouldn't have been put on a decent shirt
Howard and Blair were moving real well @WW on their Panshes in the spring right out of the box...fact
but everyone should own an ARC
imo

Quote: Originally posted by Snoboarder

Thanks So i mostly kite snow and water on lei's. Went to wbb and rode my atb for a bit and was hooked again. Want to get a kite i can throw out and ride. No pumping. Gusty inland winds. Freeride/freestyle. Thinking charger, pansh a15 or aurora. Any opinions?

I still like to mostly ride FB kites for atb in smooth wind, but I have ridden the large pansh-a15, aurora, and large arc-venom, charger, synergy kites on water in clean winds. For gusty winds I use LEIs. I would say for a twintip the 15m arcs need winds I would use a 12m LEI in, and a 15m a15/aurora I would use a similar 15m LEI winds for. The aurora has less grunt out of the water than the LEI but better speed and upwind angle. For low rolling resistance and limited leverage on an atb in gusty winds a smaller kite flown higher could be easier to manage. The lower projected area and tenancy to zenith would have me try my arc first, so I could keep it high and apparent wind would not kick in so much. When it gets gusty and I can't have good arm control using FB handles on the atb I stop to ride another day as I have learned the hard way when I lose leg control I crash

Here is an example of a Charger in gusts and heavy load/leverage doing Hand Claps :ticking:

Quote: Originally posted by PistolPete

Here is an example of a Charger in gusts and heavy load/leverage doing Hand Claps :ticking:

Wow, those handclaps are terrible. i had never heard that before but I don't follow much of the arc discussion. Seems like a great way to drown out on the water. Think I'll stick with my open celled kites.

B-Roc - that was some of the Charger 1s that had that problem (quality control issue). Unfortunately PL and Arcs took a hit because of it (and the rise of the LEI), hence the slow decline into history. There are a few threads on ArcUsers about it, and a few bridle and strap fixes that seemed to work pretty well. The 2 + 3 and I believe the rest of the arc lineup never had that problem. AFAIK my 10m was one of the good batch, it only hand clapped once in a pretty decent gust in the snow, but came right out of it. Never had the chance to try it in water, you'll have to ask Ed Cline to give it a go :D