I got in a discussion with my kiteboarding friend last night. This is the one that said "Nobody who is anybody uses those kites for kiteboarding" referring to the flysurfers and PL twinskin type kites. Are these kites that some of you use on water that are not inflated kites actually floatable and water relaunchable? If say a flysurfer or twinskin kite goes in the water while you are 200 yards offshore because there was a lull in the wind, how long is it viable floating on the water before you wouldn't be able to relaunch? And do these kites offer advantages (beyond the obvious one of not having to pump them up) with wind range, depower ability, gust munching, lift, upwind ability, and expense? I know this is a loaded set of questions but I want to be knowledgeable the next time we get into a discussion about kites. I remember that someone here had just converted to an LEI for various reasons. If I get into the water side of things here, I want to be well informed when I make a purchase decision.

Thanks

You remind me myself this summer. Let me put it this way. Flysurfer is the only kite I fly these days.

I used to say Flysurfer is the best of the best. Now I believe it's not for everybody. For some people, they are better off with inflatables. Foils, you need to take some time to get used to it, learning foil skills. It took me longer time because there was nobody explaining what to do with it. And I almost gave up but I am glad I didn't.

To your question, Yes my flysurfer floats on water and you can wait until wind comes back up. Key thing is that you don't drag it on water. Always keep tension on upper lines.

I am more caucious when wind is light. Like you mentioned there are more chance the kite falls from sky in light wind and you can't get back it up. First of all, I don't go out that far or only fly in on-shore wind when wind is light. Second, if it falls from the sky, I patiently wait (oppose to drag to the shore). Worst case, you probably have to wrap the kite up in water and swim back and fortunately it never happened to me.

It's not like I am just too lazy to pump but there are a lot of characteristics I like about foils - easy self lanuching and lending, upwind betther, depower better......and it just flies better. To be fair, there are disadvantages such as line tanges. It's all up to you weighing which factors are more important to you. My case, advantage is far greater than disadvanage but for some people, they turn away just because "it doesn't have an air tube you can hang onto in water." - Brian

Well... Here's what i reckon, and i fly both...

The safety of either kite doesn't bother me at all... in fact, i will always standby foils being much easier to deal with (flysurfer that is) in terms of relaunching... If it came to a situation where you couldn't relaunch for a certain amount of time, for whatever reason, with a flysurfer you only need to be about 20 percent inflated to get it off the water and it will get up given a few nice tugs and provided it hasn't swallowed any water in the surf etc. This hasn't ever been a problem for me cos whenever i've crashed these kites, upside down or inverted or whatever, it takes me a couple of seconds to get my bearings and then with just a quick tug it'll soar back into the sky.

Peter lynn is another fact, i started on guerillas and then moved to venoms and then venom IIs... they are pretty easy to relaunch, but honestly, i think i only ever had to do it like once, and i did it almost immediately... you probably have about 5 minutes on an arc to relaunch it before it looses it's internal pressure and then becomes a pain in the arse to relaunch... that's the downside, the upside is, they are DAMN hard to crash, like i said, i think i crashed once out of about 3 years of riding twinskins.

Gust munching foil kites will always win because of their structure, lift - i've never been higher on any kite EVER than on my 13m psycho III.... however, i find jumping itself to be far far easier on inflatables.

I love the way inflatables turn and that's why i moved to them for some things, they turn very fast and smooth. Flysurfers are pretty slow, although the new pulse looks as though it's up to par now with the latest inflatos so i'll be checking one of them out :D

I did convert to LEIs, but not completely :D the only reason was because of the feel of the turning on these lovely new hybrid kites.

To be completely honest, you'll be hard pressed to find a bad kite in 2008, they've all progressed so far. I would of never bought any kind of inflatable in 2005.

As far as "Nobody who is anybody uses those kites for kiteboarding" that's the usual argument that these people use, and it's simply to do with marketting $$, flysurfer don't have the money to spend hiring the best riders and then sending them all round the world like the big brands do, and the reason the other brands are bigger is simply because what people are used to. I think things may change as more people ride flysurfer, it's basically about the rider, not the kite. The top riders could fly nearly anything.

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I did convert to LEIs, but not completely :D the only reason was because of the feel of the turning on these lovely new hybrid kites. To be completely honest, you'll be hard pressed to find a bad kite in 2008, they've all progressed so far. I would of never bought any kind of inflatable in 2005. As far as "Nobody who is anybody uses those kites for kiteboarding" that's the usual argument that these people use, and it's simply to do with marketting $$, flysurfer don't have the money to spend hiring the best riders and then sending them all round the world like the big brands do, and the reason the other brands are bigger is simply because what people are used to. I think things may change as more people ride flysurfer, it's basically about the rider, not the kite. The top riders could fly nearly anything.

I agree,

Before Bow / Hybrid, Foils had the greatest range + gust munch. Back then they had a lot more problems with relaunch and air retention. ( I think that's why they put the F in F-arc )

Now they launch much better but the ridged frame of the Bow Hybrids gives them a a certian advantage in flight. Both now Munch Gusts. Arcs are a bit unique in the auto Zenth field.

As far as the safety of a Blimp as a life raft . HA :singing:
I'm NOT betting my life on it :!: One Pump = ONE POP :smug:

The right way to self rescue is to roll up your lines. When you get to the kite grab the wing tips. Use the kite as a sail and drag in on the on / side shore winds you went out on. This can be done equally as well on both. If you avoid water logging ( good luck ) the foil or popping the lei.

Never play out farther than you can swim in . boys and girls !

At many locations around here , all you have to do is stand up :evil:

I like foils because of their dual purpose. I crash a lot still. an lei wouldn't last long with me on the beach ! If I was 100% on water I can see the call to the Bows. :sniff:

I like riding the flysurfers, but in light winds, I had a bad experience my self

The kite was sitting reverse on the water and no more wind. At some point it sinked. It would not have if it had been siting on the right side. Fortunately, I was very close to the shore.

This is when I started the thread "to pump or not to pump" this summer. I was at my first attempts on the water. I had very good opinions from everyone, and I decided to had a LEI to my quiver

So now I own a Havoc14 in case, but I have not used it yet. When the wind blows, I shall be riding a foil. Having a LEI may help the learning stage on water.

I've tried the tubes and honestly preffer the ARC, so much easier, I'll easily hang with the tubes for speed, lift is immense, float is fantastic, I can still loop the 16m no problem. I've left it sitting on the water for 10min, then relaunched no problem. You do have to know the proper method to relaunch though. I've crashed it in the surf and relaunched it with about 10 gallons of water in it after leaving it nose down and dragging it through the water. kite went up with one wingtip sitting on the water, stayed there while the water drained out of the tip drain and up she went. LEI's in gusty wind scare me, somehow the Arc munches anything in sight. I'll usually launch my buddies on LEI's then self launch, self land then help the tubes land, or better yet, tether the kite to a log or something, land launch some tubes while my kite stays parked overhead, then have a bite to eat, then grab the kite and fly off. Not for everyone though, they're a bit more technical to really get dialed in and get max performance out of. FS are wicked too, I just got a PL because the price was right and they're great for gusty inland feilds.

Down side, and it can be a major pain at times is the low wind performance of an arc. they bite in 12mph and under.

I won the Asian Windsurf Tour "unofficial" kitesurfing championship with a land racing kite back in 2002. It just takes a bit more skillz to fly foils well than it does the LEI kites. Plus marketing plays a huge factor and I'm still a nobody so go figure.

A few weeks ago I was at a local spot. The wind was light and none of the LEI guys could get going. I sat and watched for awhile. When they all landed and put their stuff away I quietly broke out my Blade 10.5 and had a blast with the site all to myself. A couple of the guys had never seen a nice foil kite flying before.

Fly both types of kites and make a choice based on what factors you are willing to deal with i.e. pump or not, LEI not LEI etc. For me no pump, easy to land and easy to take off all by myself and packs small are the key factors to flying a foil on the water.
I have progressed in my flying skills that I rarely crash my kite. I suggest to anyone wanting to fly on the water to get your kite flying skills to the point so that you can fly your kite when you are upside down, backwards with your eyes closed before venturing onto the water. Because this is how you will end up when your crash hard-you'll be dragged through the water on your back facing away from the kite and you'll probably have your eyes closed

I have 2 LEI kites and I rarely rarely fly them and it's usually to give someone a lesson becuase I don't want them flying my nice foils.

I post this picture on occasion to point out how light the wind can be to go pretty big on a small foil kite. The wind is side on shore with very very very few white caps. I'm on a 7 meter land race foil. You can easily see where I launched out of the water.

Scott

Thanks for all the info. You hit my buttons on the questions I wanted answered. 10 minutes in the water and then still launch. Lift out of the water and then drain it before you take off. Those are all things I need, to be able to go to the lake and fly by myself or with the boys. With the PLs and FSs, what is the lower wind range? I'm 230 lbs and 6'4. I would consider it enough wind to go out to the lake with 10-12 mph winds. The real treat would be when I manage to get to the coast with the clean winds there.

My friend was using my SA2 in 11mph wind and going upwind no problem. He weighs 220lb and was using my Spleene Door54 at that time. You can probably ride in less than 10mph wind with SA2 + Door64. - Brian

SA 1.5 17m + 9knots + Spleene 134 = upwind and jumping, a great experience.