OK here is the information I have to work with.

I learned to fly on a HQ Apex 7.5M. Sweet sweet first kite, I have basically mastered it. I went snowkiting on it probably 20 times this winter on a frozen over lake with snow (sometimes slush) on top. I have experienced every wind range on it from about 8mph barely able to stay up at all, all the way up to winds of 30Mph gusting to 37mph ish (yea...scary, I was basically a human marionette). I can easily fly it static, and have done so probably 10-15 times. I am trying to get into kiteboarding, but having a hard time with it due to terrain issues, and not wanting to drive hours. I have actually jumped about 8 feet in the air off of wind gusts with my Apex, which felt a little uncomfortable since it is not at all designed to really produce that much lift. I have taken more like a longboard and even flown the NPW out in parking lots when the ground was too muddy from rain just to cruise back and forth.

My next kite I am interested in getting one with a decent amount of lift. Even one with a lot of lift. My dilemma is simply this, I have only flown foil kites, never flown an LEI. I was looking at some Waroo's and Bularoo's to purchase used or maybe new from someone. I was thinking something along the lines of 11-13M size. I would rather not spend a load, otherwise I would most likely buy a flysurfer psycho III. I am looking at getting into wakeboarding out on the lake and occasionally at the beach when I travel.

I am just needing advice on whether it really is worth it for a flysurfer over a 1/2 the price LEI. What are the drawbacks from one to the next. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, what is the equivelancy? Is a 13M Waroo going to have similar power/lift when compared with a 13M Psycho III in the same wind, or would an 13M Bularoo have similar power/lift to a 10M Pulse 2? Those kites are examples only, I understand different kites are designed to cruise, or for freestyle with a lot of lift or virtually none. I just could really use some advice from someone who has actually taken a good bit of time flying both LEI's and Foils. I would also love it if someone could give me a list of decent LEI's. I want an LEI that is well-made, with all-around characteristics, preferring lift a bit above other things. Waroo/Bularoo seem to be some of the most popular, along with Ozone Instinct, and Naish are around a lot. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Where I live, typical conditions are fair winds 10-20Mph, usually a little gusty. Thank you thank you thank you!!!

Oh, and what are some good kitesurfing boards?? The ones I have seen are a bit pricey. Will my Ozone harness work well if it gets wet, or will it ruin it possibly?

flysurfer vs LEI as the next step up?

I'll be looking hard at this as well in the next year as my skills / $$$ come together!

curious to see what some of you might have to say here about this...

btw, a quality harness should have no trouble handling water / getting wet, the important thing is to dry it out well immediately afterwards. If you've been in salt water, rinse it out well in fresh (good to rinse well anyways, dirt and sand can get everywhere) before drying...

I am not actually looking solely at flysurfer, it is just that I want a kite that is water re-launchable. With foil kites this is almost solely Flysurfer territory. Other possibilities include Peter Lynn second skins, or the brand spanking new HQ Neo due to come out soon I think. The biggest problem for me is that flysurfers are simply getting more and more expensive, and their newer kites are still climbing in prices, making it a considerable investment! I am not sure I want to drop $2000 on a new flysurfer!

Foil kites have the obvious advantages, bigger wind ranges, no bladder so no problem. Crashing them is less damaging to the kite generally, and no pumping them up! Also I have read flysurfer says their foil kites are more powerful than LEI in similar conditions and same size kites, so I assume that is a general rule for all foils vs. LEI, but I could be wrong there.

Again thanks for any information.

bear in mind that I've never flown water kites of any sort, but i fly a little, just finished a two hour session of small jumps and decent scuds on my blade...

but from I've read in my nearly a year of lurking the forum, the PL twinskins are a good alternative for you to consider as a more user-friendly and safer way to get into depower, the auto-zenith sounds really nice, but they do require some sort of pre-inflation and seem a bit trickier to launch at first and finally (like most depowers from what I read) need a good solid 10 mph to wake up and 15 to get strong and 20 to go large, for say a 10-14 meter twinskin.

lots of twinskin flyers on racekites.com for more qualified opinions...

the guy i bought my blade from has gotten rid of his flysurfers and has been having fun with a bularoo, for what it's worth...

So it seems from my forum lurking that PL and flysurfer are definitely two solid depower options for one who has "mastered" a big HQ kite, but bear in mind I've seen neither, and just throwing up an option for you to research at more length...

first off welcome.................and youre in luck. Forum member DaVinch is right in your backyard and is a Flysurfer dealer so you probably can schedule a demo (fly before you buy). Believe he is flying the Pulse 2 10m these days.

There are a few twin skinners here on PKF that could lend advice, AJ, Ashe, Lunchbox, Domindo, Baluk, and Big Kahuna come to mind. Im sure they will chime in with thoughts/suggestions. Gust munching seems to be there forte, low end performance there limfac but if you get the right size for your winds, shouldnt be an issue.

As for LEIs, Ive gone the Best Bularoo route from Flysurfer and so far have been impressed so much in fact that Im looking at a 10 or 12m Nemisis for my next purchase. Size will be determined by the top end on my Bularoo. My decision to make the change was purely $$$. Flysurfers are awesome wings. Big Kahuna and Domindo both have many hours on LEIs and again could lend advice. Good luck and send DaVinch a U2U......................

Hi Jon

A Flysurfer or a balloon ??

Well it's not easy. Some will only swear by Flysurfers, others will fly LEIs all year-round event during winter.

As for me, I can no make up my mind, so I do both. I think there are pros and cons for each.

Flysurfers brand new are expensive, but there are some very good deals on used kites from time to time. They don't resell so much anymore. But at the same time, there are not many to buy in NA. A lot more in Europe.

If you do a lot of light wind, then the extra $$$ is worth on a Speed/SilverArrow 1.5 or 2 15m/17m/19m. So I dropped almost 2000$ on my almost new SA2 15m, and I am so happy with it. I have used it 2 weekends in a row lately, when all the LEI are just sitting on the beach. This is priceless. And if the wind goes up, you just keep it as it has a very large depower range.

As a rule of thumb, a Flysurfer Psycho3 10m probably provides the equivalent power of a 12m LEI. But there are new LEI this year that have improved and are just more performant and almost compare 1:1 in size with the LEI, but they cost a lot too. Example F-One Most wanted Bandit, Best Nemesis HP, Cabrinha Switchblade 3. I recently bought a 12m Best Nemesis HP, and quite happy with it. Performance is way more than a Waroo, Bularoo, etc.

Now we have to see what the Psycho4 will do. Apparently it will perform better than any existing LEI out there.

Flysurfers are more solid than any LEI. That's it. Your Flysurfer will still perform well in few years, and will last much longer. So in term of money, your investment is better, especially knowing that a LEI looses 50% of its value after 1 season. If you want a LEI, and don't necessarily need the latest technology, check the brand new clear-out on ebay, etc... or buy used.

Launching and landing:

Flysurfer self launching and self landing no problem. I go to a spot I have to water launch and I prefer the LEI in that case, but it's well feasible with the FS.

Pumping:

OK not all LEI are fun to pump. SO for my Best Nemesis I took the EZ-Pump option which is very cool. It takes 5 minutes to pump, but the junctions between the main bladder to the struts are one-way. If the main bladder blows out, the struts remain inflated. Each strut and the main bladder have a FAST deflate valve. It takes a fraction of a second to deflate my kite, much less time than my Flysurfer.

Security: Flysurfer no doubt.

Flying characteristics:

Everyone is different, so you need to try both, and different models to find out what you like. There are so many choices, but most of them may be OK.

If you like park and drive, go Flysurfer. I find that a LEI need to be worked up and down more.

Reverse relaunch:

I did not have major troubles with Flysurfers, just dont pull the front lines while the kite is upside down. You will sink it. For the Speed2 I just pull both rear lines, the kite goes up (backward), then I let go one line, and it rotates. Even easier with a Pulse.

Self rescue: no experience yet.

Durability: Flysurfer. Dont crash your LEI on land too much.

Now I need to load 2 more kites, and there will probably be another FS and one LEI. I should have kept my Pulse1 7m because now I am not sure if I should try a Pulse2 or wait the Psycho4.

Boards:

I really like my Spleene RIP38 which I am selling. I also have an underground but I think I will try to get a Spleene RIP34 instead, and a DOOR too. I dont have much experience with a lot of boards, but very satisfied with the Spleene quality.

are you more uncertain?

skunk day today:puzzled:

what to do when not flying but lurk on the forum...

I'm about 155 lbs and usually fly winds in the 8-12 mph range, so I'm thinking hard about flysurfers...

I like the PL twinskins, but I just don't get the wind to make them wake up completely, so those smaller SAs continue to make my kite lust get going...

good to see Buzz and TD's opinions on this...

@AF, good luck with your own brand of lite lust!:evil:

(edit) @tridude: "limfac" ?1? nice bit of jargon there, I haven't run across it yet...

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude As for LEIs, Ive gone the Best Bularoo route from Flysurfer and so far have been impressed so much in fact that Im looking at a 10 or 12m Nemisis for my next purchase.

Tridude,

yes you will. I am.

I was almost sold on Waroos/ Bularoos. The prices are pretty amazing and very few complain about the newer ones . When you throw in a bar and lines they all of a sudden cost a bit more.
Flysurfers nearly always come with bar and lines. New Flysurfers are out of my range but lightly used ones go at some amazing deals. When the Phsyco 4 comes out I expect a price adjustment on the Pulses and Phsyco 3 . To own a Flysurfer is to appreciate all the EXTRA build quality that goes into these kites :wow: I'm excited to see what Ozone comes out with !
If I cared more about getting out on the water I might have gone for the Waroo / Bularoos. Being mostly a land animal I find I can take care of myself without an assistant far better launching and landing my foils !

One thing you can be sure of. You will be as happy as ever with whatever choice you make when it's in the sky !!!!

HQ Neo is due to ship late July and pricing is just out.
Range is $849 for 6.0m to $1,169 for 14m.
Price includes bar and lines.
When I get a demo I'll ship it to Tridude to see how he thinks it compares to FS.
Local Kiteboarders are anxious to take it out, too.

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski what to do when not flying but lurk on the forum... I'm about 155 lbs and usually fly winds in the 8-12 mph range, so I'm thinking hard about flysurfers... I like the PL twinskins, but I just don't get the wind to make them wake up completely, so those smaller SAs continue to get mike kite lust going... good to see Buzz and TD's opinions on this... @AF, good luck with your own brand of lite lust!:evil: (edit) @tridude: "limfac" ?1? nice bit of jargon there, I haven't run across it yet...

sorry Furb--limiting factor--again this is just what Ive read on the twin skins. The Venoms have a lower AR than say the Phantoms and should produce in lower winds.........How low? The PKF experts will know................

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell HQ Neo is due to ship late July and pricing is just out. Range is $849 for 6.0m to $1,169 for 14m. Price includes bar and lines. When I get a demo I'll ship it to Tridude to see how he thinks it compares to FS. Local Kiteboarders are anxious to take it out, too.

Oh hell, thats pressure (Im serious)..........back to the thread!

OK here is what I have come up with.

For me personally at this moment, I can not really see spending the $$$ on the flysurfers. Yes they are more powerful, better, and much more durable.

I still need to learn and practice on different sizes and types of kites, I would hate to buy a freestyle kite for $1200-1800, and not like it or feel uncomfortable with it. So onto the E-bay auctions I go looking for an LEI.

I was looking longingly at a new 08 Nemesis EZ Pump 12M, but they want too much in my opinion. So now I have found some brand new 07 Liquid Force Assaults complete with kite, bag, bar, lines, and pump. I am hoping to pick one up for around $300ish.

I know DaVinch personally, he is the one who kinda got me into the sport and found my ozone harness (which is incredibly comfortable and I love), he found my HQ Apex to get me started, and has since provided me with a lot of ideas and advice. He is a great guy to work with in every aspect, very easy to do business with, and very knowledgeable on virtually every aspect of foil kites, and some fixed bridles as well.

Unfortunately Flysurfer has changed their policies and no longer allow people to deal their kites. (I think this happened last week), their kites are just getting more and more expensive, and then when a dealer adds some $ on top, their sales are suffering. So from what I have heard from DaVinch is that if you want a flysurfer you must now go direct through flysurfer. I don't know why, but I have done a good deal of research into Peter Lynn, but never got the urge to try one or buy one....no real reason, just my quirk I guess. The Neo I think I will hold off on, usually the first line of kites are more like a test line than a true product, cant see waiting and dropping the cash. Also I can buy one or two LEI's to play with and practice on before I really get serious with an investment....and it gives me more time to save lol!

So at the moment, in my own Foil vs. LEI contest, I am going to have to give in to LEI, and try them out. The cost : benefit ratio is too much to overcome at the moment.

IF anyone has any good deals or knows anyone selling a good board for kitesurfing, I wouldn't mind hearing what their selling and how much they are asking for it


Thank you everyone for your input, I will let DaVinch try out my LEI when I get it since he has never flown one!! :evil: