I have been hydroplaning a lot lately. I have been using Big foot Full and Big foot AS on the rear, all have cut profiles (7 each). I have run with more and less pressure but with little difference. I have added weights for the front and rear but that made a bit of difference but not too much. Is there something I am missing?
Alex

Quote:

Originally posted by kitedemon I have been hydroplaning a lot lately. I have been using Big foot Full and Big foot AS on the rear, all have cut profiles (7 each). I have run with more and less pressure but with little difference. I have added weights for the front and rear but that made a bit of difference but not too much. Is there something I am missing? Alex

Alex, when you are talking of hydroplaning is this from just hitting a bit of water, or does the beach you buggy on have lots of tide pools? If you are buggying on a beach with big tide pools like they have over in europe and your beach is hard pack you might look into getting a set of the disk wheels with metzlar tires. These wheels and tires will cut right through the water for you.

Big Foots biggest benefit is being able to go over the soft stuff, ie dune work and deep sandy beaches, but don't do well in water holes as they float over it or hydroplane.

Big John
JoJo1

John,
Thanks for the response! The where I am we have massive tides... the beach is a mix of powder sand and a medium packed wet sand it has a few pools but mostly just about a constant 1/8 inch of water all over the surface. In the summer the soft sand often has many sunbathers and I stay low in the wet stuff and keep them out of harms way. Later in the year I can stick to the sand that has dried out some at the edge between the soft and wet sand. I use the BF's to run over the soft sand even at that I leave quite a deep rut from my passing it it and it blows up as I pass and swirls around behind me. Nothing on my beach is very firm... adding weight just seemed to bog the whole works down more. I am stumped. I have run the tire pressure to 10 psi on the plastic rims the manufacturer says 15 for bead seating and 5 for normal running. Have you tried higher pressures with the regular rims?

Quote:

Originally posted by kitedemon John, Thanks for the response! The where I am we have massive tides... the beach is a mix of powder sand and a medium packed wet sand it has a few pools but mostly just about a constant 1/8 inch of water all over the surface. In the summer the soft sand often has many sunbathers and I stay low in the wet stuff and keep them out of harms way. Later in the year I can stick to the sand that has dried out some at the edge between the soft and wet sand. I use the BF's to run over the soft sand even at that I leave quite a deep rut from my passing it it and it blows up as I pass and swirls around behind me. Nothing on my beach is very firm... adding weight just seemed to bog the whole works down more. I am stumped. I have run the tire pressure to 10 psi on the plastic rims the manufacturer says 15 for bead seating and 5 for normal running. Have you tried higher pressures with the regular rims?

Well, after reading this I would say the disks wouldn't work for you, because they need the hardpack which is usually under tide pools.

This may be part of a solution. When you are sliding out tell me how the buggy is kicking out on you as a balanced buggy will help.

Thinking back to something makes me have another question.
Have you ever go over to an area that you are sliding in?
I ask this as some of the areas that I have slid out of control going through what I considered to be rather shallow water and slid my butt off. Anyway after finishing the session I went over to look at the area I was sliding and there was a slick layer of algae over the sand and that was the culprit.

If this is the case then the best bet will be to find the balance on your buggy, add a weight set from ellis, and when you know you are going to go through a slick bring your kite up so as to stop most of the side load and you should be able to make it through.

If you want give me a shout on my cell 405-245-9470 and we can discuss more indepth and find you a solution

Take care
Big John
JoJo1

John,
Algae? hmmm interesting idea but no not that easy it really is speed related I can 'feel' the whole thing going loose, I am fishing for words here. The buggy rear end will side out on either side it will slip (float?) either toward or away from the kite, I have almost done an accidental 360. 300 likely away from the kite (all with the access de-power that is not a fun experience...) It feels like being on a rolling office chair the buggy is going straight but rotating at the same time. I can turn the front wheel as hard as I want and nothing, until you slow down past the 40 mark and then it had better be facing forward! I tried adding weight to both the front and rear and just the front and just the rear to see what would happen. The front changed the speed a bit say about 44 maybe but it still did the same thing. The rear nothing much at all. The extra weight really messed up the soft sand performance in a serious way. It really is like driving a car on ice, just don't do anything just start to slow down and snap everything will return to normal. I want to try to increase the tire pressure up to say 15 or 20 psi but i don't know if that is a good idea?
Alex

Quote:

Originally posted by kitedemon John, Algae? hmmm interesting idea but no not that easy it really is speed related I can 'feel' the whole thing going loose, I am fishing for words here. The buggy rear end will side out on either side it will slip (float?) either toward or away from the kite, I have almost done an accidental 360. 300 likely away from the kite (all with the access de-power that is not a fun experience...) It feels like being on a rolling office chair the buggy is going straight but rotating at the same time. I can turn the front wheel as hard as I want and nothing, until you slow down past the 40 mark and then it had better be facing forward! I tried adding weight to both the front and rear and just the front and just the rear to see what would happen. The front changed the speed a bit say about 44 maybe but it still did the same thing. The rear nothing much at all. The extra weight really messed up the soft sand performance in a serious way. It really is like driving a car on ice, just don't do anything just start to slow down and snap everything will return to normal. I want to try to increase the tire pressure up to say 15 or 20 psi but i don't know if that is a good idea? Alex

Alex, can you send me some detailed pics of your buggy and I need some measuements which might be easier to just give a call. number in above post to discuss in depth and solve your problem. I am sure that it is probably a simple fix just need a bit more communication between us to figure it out.
With the soft sand you would not want to go above 7-10 psi in the tires or you will end up having the same thing happen as when you added the weight. a giant sand plow.

Big John
JoJo1

Ok John! I am stuck at work and can't call long distance from here i'll do so tomorrow what time zone are you in and when is best?

This one is the Winddragon in my studio.

Me and the bug on the beach in the wet sand early in the year, before the sunbathers.

closer

another angle of the Winddragon

:P

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Originally posted by kitedemon :P

I see some areas I think that I can help you with for sure.
Here is your homework as I like to call it.
measure your buggy these are the areas that I need as I am not familiar with your buggy.
rear axle inside wheels and complete wheel tip to wheel tip
front to back total length
I would like to know the angle of the downtube and length from dead center on the fork bolt to the first bolt where the stem comes into the rail.

Yes, give me a call tommorrow. I am central time zone any time in the afternoon I will be around and that is my cell number so I almost always have it.

Big John

Let me first stress that I know almost nothing about building buggies. But from your pictures, it looks like your buggy is nice and long but maybe the rear axle is narrow for the length of the buggy. I know from Popeye's site that most of his rear axles are 1500mm which is roughly 5'. Maybe concentrate your effort there and see if an expert thinks a wider axle would enhance the handling.

Are you tires dead slick? An easy potential fix for hydroplaning would be grooved tires. Give the water some place to go.
What beach are you buggying at in the pictures? My brother lives down near Bridgewater are near there?
S

Bob the axle is a bit short it is true I measured the car and the bridges I have to pass over carefully and it is as wide as possable with out making me carry it disassembled on my back the beach... it is actually with out wheels 1150mm and with the AS bigfoots in the widest position with the spacers in place it is 1700mm (5.58foot) outside to outside. That is smaller than Popeye's when the wheels are on by a fair but but still not small and I have a short beach just over 1km (.6 mile) Wider axles will increase the turning radius some I needed to keep that as small as I can.

Scudley I have a 7 groove profile cut in them for that reason. The problem only exists in the summer when I am forced down low on the beach in the really wet sand because of the people using the beach. I have a skin of water all over the surface I hit that 40 or so km/h and it is like driving on ice... no sudden moves even weight shifts and you are skating around. The beach is closer to Lawerencetown beach I live in Dartmouth it is only 20min away or so.

Big J has some good ideas

also i've seen some Euro Riders put the Std Barrow wheels on the rear, and still run a BF for the front. i'm sure this was probably mentioned, but longer rear axle would also be in order, just from looking at the pics.

Ricardo,
You have hit the thorn I have... as one of the local guys said 'you really have to be dedicated to kite here'

A wider axle means both spots I have the buggy would have to be taken to the beach in pieces. We have massive tides here. My most frequent place has about 2 m tide (6'5) the second location has much bigger tides 13m (42feet plus) that is some of the highest tides on the planet. It comes in fast like really fast I would not cut the bugging short by having to do this not to mention the 3 km carry (down a steep slope) ... As it is I flip the AS over when I reach the beach. I'd really no be able to manage it would take 3 trips rather than one. As I only have a problem for 6 weeks I am not sure I'd bother. I want a wider axle for when I travel I am hoping next year but I am not sure.

The sand where I am have the issue the sand is really odd. If I take my hand and place it on the sand and wiggle it, in a moment it turnes to a jelly like feel and I am moving sand out from my hand 10 or 12 inches. The BFs you can slow down and then start again if you don't stop for too long if you do stop for a few min. I have to push the buggy forward 18 inches to start again other wise the buggy just does not move and obe. The extra wide wheels (from my pl) when you hit this sand your speed cuts in half or better it is like driving into warm honey. The fellow who used to ride here just avoided that area like the plague and stayed higher on the beach in the damp sand. This year there has been so many sunbathers and bird people and the beach is flatter and wetter this year that I am stuck way low to avoid everything.

Ricardo would a longer axle make much difference to water speed problems? I thought a larger foot print would likely spread the weight out more and actually make it worse rather than better or not? I am unsure. I have not had difficulty holding an edge in the damp and firm sand at all. I envy you guys with big long buggy spots. In the summer with the typical wind I only have 1/4 mile or less to use and only a 200 or 300 feel wide.

axle width makes no difference, you need deeper grooves and wider grooves in the tyres . I have had the same issue, i now run 400x8x4.8 2ply barrow tyres for wet conditions with a 2.0mm groove in the tread by 6.0mm wide 9.0mm of flat tyre between the grooves, no issues now... I see your problem is you need one tyre to do many jobs, hard sand soft and wet, i believe Kenda Beach racers or Cadkat tyres with 10mm wide grooves will give you the ultimate combination of performance. When you are going fast there is currently not enough space to eject the water down the grooves and you float on top like a water ski. Short story is wider and deeper grooves are needed, how you do that is up to you

Personally, I think the Beach Racers will be terrible in the wet stuff, you are in a awkward situation wanting your tyres to do many things, in terms of the racers around Europe many now have 10mm wide grooves on their bigfoots, but if there is water around they use disks, but many now are moving onto slightly wider wheels like motor cycle wheels, (about as wide as a barrow wheel but a lot bigger diameter) still narrower enough to cut through the water but wide enough for when they come out of the water...

There is nothing that will stop aqua planing. The only thing that will cure it is to go slower....

trust me, I buggy on a big beach that gets wet in winter and I've yet to fint the solution

Is there the possibility that you could mount duallies on the back. That's how I roll!

I may have a solution figured out I spoke with Big john and a few friends and come up with a possibility. I am going to take a dead pair of mountain bike tires and cut the side walls off and stitch then into rings about the same diameter as the BF tire and deflate the tire and slip the treads over it and then re inflate it. That should increase the speed at which the planing occurs. (I think) I'll just have to be careful in power turns to keep them on and not to pull them off... I can see how wider grooves and more of them would help. I just don't have the access to alter the ones I have easily. (next set) I wonder how hard it would be to cut v shaped grooves? Duallies would be cool but I'd have to do some alterations to manage that and I have enough trouble with getting 20mm anything here... (nice to live in a metric country... almost...)

Unless you attach them to the inflated tire in some way, they will spin right off the first time (or maybe before) you side load the tire. There should be some ways to get them attached though, like a silicone adhesive maybe.

I used chain last year like that and they were fine for the most part... that worked fine on the crusty ice... I have a blade making project to start on for this year! I figure if the chain worked the tire should as well once I finished them I'll write a report to see if it does or if you are right and they pull off.

If after your experiments are complete and you still find yourself befuddled with your ass end dragging out at speed (this usually happens to me with my 13m venom in 17+mph winds - every time the kite starts giving a heavy pull the buggy auto steers towards the ocean) - try thinking about extending your back axle rather than widening it. I know that the geometry is off in my bug - I am not placed in the center of an equilateral triangle as I should be - my ass is too near the back axle and hence the tail being dragged out by the force of the kites side pull. If it turns out to be the wheels than good luck with your problem solving - I like the idea of the tire wrapped in another tire - very Mobius.