Give it a day. He will clear this up. He doesn't have a good reputation for nothing.

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc The only way to make a little money in the kiting business is to start with a lot of money. ;-)

What, you mean Capitalism requires, gasp, CAPITAL?

Surely you jest. Everybody knows the post-modern norm is to finance one's "business" via smoke, mirrors, and other people's debt.

"Everybody does it that way" so that must make it right - right?

Quote:

Apparently "Pay-pal" enables an end-run around that policy by transferring funds immediately.

I dont think paypal automatically bills your CC right away. from my understand as a merchant you need to authorize the transaction first. thats if you run a merchant/business account. some online retailers use a personal account??? why i have no idea.

same with our CC Machine (i love my iphone, mobility), we can re-authorize for payment to clean funds first or hold funds on your CC until your item arrives if not instock. From there we hit the $ Button and your transaction is completed.

Quote:

Is this Ozone "backorder" situation industry wide - or just unique to the referenced web retailer?

This is Ozone in general. I'm having problems with them as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man That argument is negated by the fact the retailer in question had time to post on PKF numerous times today - after the email was opened at 0500.

What kind of a freak checks on read receipts to their kite shop and then cries when they haven't gotten a response within a few hours. You ought to try to relax a little bit and go find something to cheer you up.

Also its PISS POOR MANNERS to air out your grievances and bad mouth someone on the interweb when you haven't even had a chance to talk to him about it yet. Why don't you pick up the phone like an adult and call him to sort it out. My bet is that if you hike up your training pants and handle this like an adult that Angus will find a way to make you happy. Then again for some people that just isn't possible.

I guess this is exhibit B on the joys of running a kite shop.

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man Quote: Originally posted by acampbell Ooooh, you all have paid. You have paid. And I thank you all!! Yes. Via pay-pal - and billed when the product ordered isn't even in country, let alone in [your] inventory. You do realize you're not supposed to bill until you ship, right? I'm being patient. I emailed and asked for your price on an alternate product you suggested. Per email receipt, you read (or at leasted opened) my email at 0500 this am - and then I see you spent all day messaging here on PKF - but didn't bother to respond to a paying customer. That's not going to "build a book of business", is it?

Wow a lot can happen when you try and get some sleep. Thanks all for the nice comments and encouragement.

Bill, sometimes even my most reliable suppliers do not have stock. That's why I called so many places in the US and overseas on your behalf and offered you replacements/ alternatives, some at more favorable prices , even.

Your order for the kite leash is canceled and refunded. Good day to you, sir.

Anyone want to go fly a kite?

Quote:

I dont think paypal automatically bills your CC right away. from my understand as a merchant you need to authorize the transaction first.

I checked my creditcard log online. Either way, the transaction has been billed and that's not acceptable.

Again, for the benefit of those considering "running a kite shop" - I don't have a problem waiting for a product - as long as I'm told up front that it's not in stock and there will be a delay.

However, when we click the "Add to Cart" button, there is a reasonable expectation, having not been notified otherwise, that the vendor actualy has a product to put into the cart.

Making that representation, billing a credit card immediately, and then failing to deliver product is simply dishonest. That's not acceptable - even if "everybody in the industry does it".

Quote:

Originally posted by kiteNH I guess this is exhibit B on the joys of running a kite shop.

"Running a kite shop" implies having shelves, having inventory on those shelves, and engaging in commerce with customers in an honest and timely manner.

Running a web cart and billing credit cards for phantom dropshipped inventory is not, IMHO, "Running a kite shop".

Lesson learned? Pay the tax and go local.

For the record, customer's credit cards are charged right away as far as I can tell and there is no need for me to authorize. I don not enable the inventory feature on my e-commerce engine that would tell customers of stock status because it is misleading. I can usually deliver "out of stock" items faster than many retailers can deliver items sitting on their shelves.
In true out-of-stock situations I always let the customer know right away and offer alternatives if appropriate, as I did in this case. Refunds are always given cheerfully, but that does not have to happen often, even when offered.

Right now my only supply issues (bedsides the HQ leashes), are with Ozone products and I have several waiting for harnesses or Turbo bars. I may have to refund those as Ozone cannot even tell me when they will be in.

Quote:

customer's credit cards are charged right away as far as I can tell

Good to know about Paypal. Thanks Angus.

Insectoman,


The kite industry….the Power kite industry in particular is a very unique segment which is not widely popular, though it is increasing all the time. If you ever look at a map of kite shops, you will find them primarily on the coasts as that is where most people ‘think about wanting to fly a kite’. And then, most of them don’t know a thing of 2 line kites, let alone 4 line Power kites.

If you are local to one of those kite shops, do business with them. They will probably be able to get what you want and you will have someone who knows about kites that you can talk to and learn from. Most importantly, you want to help keep them in business so they will be there for you when you need them.

If you are not local to one of the kite shops, then that is where most of the internet retailers on this forum come in. We are all enthusiasts who thoroughly test the products you are buying. Chances are, we can help you with your questions because we have first hand experience with the product(s) you are asking about. What we may not know, can usually be found in this forum.

I was lucky in the beginning to have a kite shop just 65 miles from me. But she only carried single line kites and could order from one Power Kite manufacturer. But she did not fly and didn’t have the answers to my questions. Even she didn’t have the sales to keep her shop running and now sells out of a cargo trailer on weekends set up in a dirt field.

I also started ordering Power kites from Dino here and have since had good service from Angus as well. They are situated on the West and East coasts respectively and there really wasn’t anyone near me in Dallas to help me with Kiting. So I started selling on my own. I spend time demo-ing kites to people, letting them fly them to see how they are. I spend time at festivals and flea markets getting my name out there. I have a ski shop who routes questions about kites my way. I am still amazed that any ski shop can survive in Dallas where we get snow maybe once a year and have not even the smallest of bunny slopes anywhere.

As for stocking the shelves, even the brick and mortar store will not have everything possible. They can get it for you, but they don’t stock everything. They stock only the best selling items. This is the same for the internet stores. Unless they are a distributor of the item, it would be a mistake to think that they have exactly the kite you want at that minute. Especially when there are so many types, sizes, and colors available.

HQ for example has over 1100 items on their sales sheet. 60 of those are 2, 3, and 4 line foil kites. That is $21,000 in inventory just to stock one of each of those 2, 3, and 4 line kites. Let alone the 2 line stunt kites. And multiple manufacturers. At least HQ limits each line as there is generally one color / size. And at times HQ will not have the item at the distributor or even the manufacturer level. Especially when an item is new. When you get into Peter Lynn for example, most kites come in 2 or 3 different color schemes. So now you have multiplied your product availability by 3. Their product line contains over 200 models of kites and would require $120,000 of inventory to be fully stocked. Now $100,000 in inventory is fine if you are moving product at a decent pace, but with Power kites, a customer might buy one now, then won’t be back for a year for their next one. If you had $100,000 in inventory, you would be a distributor. And the thing is, distributors like Ozone here don’t carry much of their product. Back to the stocking what sells thing.

Nobody stocks everything they can sell you. Not the Brick / Mortar, not the online guys. They are there to provide you a service. To help get you what you want in a timely fashion and to answer your questions. Most of the Manufacturers (Peter Lynn, HQ, Revolution, Flexifoil) are very good about having items in stock and get them out the door very quickly. Others we have seen have their issues (Ozone) which may or may not be the distributors fault. I have no way of knowing what the supply chain is like for them from across the pond.

Therein lies the other problem with our sport. Most of the manufacturers are overseas. Revolution and New Tech Kites are the only two I am aware of that are US based. Revolution kites are in a league of their own and not really Power Kites, though some of their models do very well in that role, and New Tech hasn’t quite made it as big as the other guys but they do have some ok kites. But I believe all but Revolution are sewn in china or Vietnam! It’s a fact we must deal with.

I’m sure your shop is trying to find out about your product from the manufacturer, but on a weekend, he will get nothing from them. And if he has to find out anything from Ozone, he won’t get a response from them in at least a week if at all. That is just how it is with Ozone right now. The last thing any of us want is a customer who is unhappy.

You have the opportunity to go anywhere you want for business. If you live near a kite shop, you need to go there. If you live near one of the online guys, you need to go there as you can meet with them and fly with them. Having a flying buddy is probably one of the main reasons I got into this. I’ve sold to a bunch of people local to me who are my flying buddies when I go flying. These guys met each other through me (a lot of which I didn’t know before) and now they are flying buddies with each other even when I’m not flying. That is the Value that we provide. Something you wont get from ordering from somewhere far away.

If you must order from far away, then we are still here for you to answer questions and talk shop. If you need the part, stick with him, I’m sure he is doing his best. Any one of us would have the same issue if it is a manufacturer or distributor problem.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell In true out-of-stock situations

Welcome to the "Just in time" globalized food chain.

The product was recommended by HQ and I "found" the product at your "shop" by googling the product code they gave me.

It is a reasonable expectation, manifested from the experience of dealing with many on-line vendors over many years, that clicking the "add to cart" button does just that - adds the item from SOMEBODY's physical/virtual inventory to the shopping cart for order fulfilment.

In this case, that expectation was unfounded - and perhaps even exploited?

The reliability of an "inventory feature" is proportional to the ability of the vendor/mfg to communicate and control their inventory.

My observation is that most vendors have the "inventory feature" turned ON.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell Bill, sometimes even my most reliable suppliers do not have stock. That's why I called so many places in the US and overseas on your behalf and offered you replacements/ alternatives, some at more favorable prices , even. Your order for the kite leash is canceled and refunded. Good day to you, sir. Anyone want to go fly a kite?

Spot on Angus! This order was like a date that was bad from the beginning. Just get out any way and as quickly as you can. I'm quite offended at all the accusations of impropriety and dishonesty. This thread is like ones we used to have up until a few months ago. Hmmm. Maybe a relative?:ticking:

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat As for stocking the shelves, even the brick and mortar store will not have everything possible. They can get it for you, but they don’t stock everything.

Akulakat, thank you for your thoughtful response. I realize power kiting is presently a niche market. I'd like to see it mature and reach its potential as a sustainable means of recreation.

Reaching that potential, however, means the supply chain must mature as well; and that means adequate, predictable, inventory control.

I've run a small mfg company that produced electronic medical devices for respiratory care - under the jurisdiction of the FDA - for whom every component and product in the supply chain must be tracked. So I know the challenges involved in inventory control - both as a seller and as a consumer of parts required for manufacture.

Those challenges can be met; but not with excuses.

Regarding "stocking the shelves" - the issue is one of advertising. When a bricks and mortar store posts an advertisement for a given product, they have to HAVE IT STOCKED - otherwise, the law generally frowns upon the practice characterized as "bait and switch".

In the Internet world, "advertising" often means having a product produce a search engine hit - as was produced when I googled "HQ 119422 Kite Leash", and "found" it at Angus' shop.

Bait and switch? Probably not.

Poor, immature inventory control though? - self evidently so.

"doood, where's the container car" ain't gonna cut it. ;-)

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob [I'm quite offended at all the accusations of impropriety and dishonesty.

FACT: Product was advertised on website and "added to cart" without notification of backorder status.

FACT: Credit Card was billed; product was not shipped.

REASONABLE ASSUMPTION: Vendor is utilizing Paypal automatic transfer policy to "float" inventory related cash flow.


So, Bob, you think it acceptable to finance phantom inventory using other people's debt?

The policy of the Credit Card company I use, requiring physical shipment before funds transfer, exists for a reason.

The Fair Credit Act, exists for a reason.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre28.shtm

Maybe you disagree with those reasons. I don't.

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man FACT: Product was advertised on website and "added to cart" without notification of backorder status. FACT: Credit Card was billed; product was not shipped. REASONABLE ASSUMPTION: Vendor is utilizing Paypal automatic transfer policy to "float" inventory related cash flow. So, Bob, you think it acceptable to finance phantom inventory using other people's debt?

Hey bug man are you done hijacking the thread yet? Maybe you should go find some credit card policy forum to post on because I can tell you that nobody here cares. And that you look like an idiot right now carrying on and on about a premature charge for a friggin $50 dollar kite leash. Get over it already. Go fly a kite or something.

Quote:

Originally posted by sp4cem0nkey I've recently come to the conclusion that what I do for a living and what I went to college for no longer interests me.....................Kinda wish I had inquired about it...

This got interesting rather quickly. sp4cem0nkey, if the idea of making money is at all in your kite business thoughts, you are in the wrong business. Everyone and anyone in this business is in it for the love of the sport not the money. As a General Contractor by day and a kite business owner the rest of my life, I make about $.42 an hour for ALL the time I put onto the construction business. The kites actually cost me more than $1200.00 per month just to keep in business with what the kites and stuff bring in. The Festivals, outings, demo's, website, taxes, etc, let alone the customers from hell, (not that I have ever had one), brings in NO money but costs money. I do the kite business because of the look on the faces of new customers that are being dragged across the field for the 1st time.
There is not a customer out there that can afford to pay what it really cost for one of these kites. If I could only charge every time for the question that a customer asks or someone who wants my time for free.
The love of the sport. Take it or leave it.

Quote:

Originally posted by kiteNH Hey bug man are you done hijacking the thread yet?

Credit, inventory, cash flow, and customer service are issues that are quite relevant to anyone familiar with the realities of running a business; thus my comments on this thread are completely germaine to the subject of "Running a kite shop".

Quote:

Originally posted by kiteNH about a premature charge for a friggin $50 dollar kite leash

It's a matter of principle. Principles - do you know what those are? Got a moral compass up there in NH? Is it calibrated or spinning?

How are the principles of honesty and integrity, as applied and violated in the Sub-Prime liar loan fiasco, working out for the global economic infrastructure?

50 dollar kite leash? Same violation of principle, smaller scale. "everybody does it" is no excuse; and the principles folks apply in the little transactions often reveals the character of how they'll behave in larger ones.

Fair and equitable commerce has certain requirements. Deal with it, or go fly your NyLon kite into Boston Harbor.

im going out to fly again 4th day in a row--all the rest of you, can think of how much fun im having while you're posting all day long YAWN....... cheers HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Quote:

Originally posted by tom kite im going out to fly again 4th day in a row

Ah see, that's where technology can create an illusion. I'm posting this wirelessly from my car; parked at my latest exploratory kite field... while waiting for the wind to come up.

Whispering up to 3mph now. Be flying the Hydra 350 soon I hope. Unless things dramaticaly pick up though, probably won't get the Neo2 11m into the air... again.

Need something in between the 350 and Neo2 11m; alas if only I'd received an email response, I'd probably have ordered a 5m scout from Angus, in addition to the backordered leash. But...:moon:

=========
Now it's calm.

Maybe next time I should bring my mountain bike? Riding it always seems to be a sure fire way of generating a head wind. :tumble:

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat Therein lies the other problem with our sport. Most of the manufacturers are overseas.

It's not a problem that's limited to our sport; but a general flaw in post-modern economics.

Communist Chinese "Capitalism", isn't.

Utilization of Communist Chinese slave labor has nearly destroyed American manufacturing, and along with it will go the buying power of the American consumer public... who have stupidly financed the Communist Chinese via unprecedented debt...

In the process consumerism is being transformed into mercantilism via a globalized version of the "Company Store".

Jefferson nailed it 200+ years ago:

"COMMERCE BETWEEN MASTER AND SLAVE IS DESPOTISM"

Are we {back} there yet?

========
Ack! Wind is still completely calm. Time to abandon the field and go to plan B. ATB, gravity, a big hill, and my feet will provide the day's entertainment...

You've been on this forum for 12 days now. 16 out of your 23 posts have been made on this thread discussing something unrelated to whether or not running a kite shop is a good job or not. We get your point. Its one thing to make a comment about the way you feel about a business, its another thing to write an essay about how to run a business properly on a forum geared towards powerkites. If you care that much about business management, why don't you join a forum where people are intersted in that same subject?

Quote:

If I could only charge every time for the question that a customer asks or someone who wants my time for free.

Amen, Brother.

It's time for INSECTICIDE! For him to continue this bashing of a well known well respected member of this forum is ridiculous!

Angus your rep is safe here with us, I am curious if this guy Insectoman is representing the kiting community in a positive way.

Insectoman Sorry you did not get your leash in the amount of time that you thought to be reasonable, whatever that may be.

Spacemonkey, you have got to have the passion, patience, as well as the cash flow to move the kites. Could you imagine if this guy was your first customer, you would be running for the door!

Power, you beat me to that one!
Happy winds to the rest of you guys!

I choose to edit part of my original post for my own satisfaction! No Guarantee!

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat Quote: If I could only charge every time for the question that a customer asks or someone who wants my time for free. Amen, Brother.

Here is some irony. What seems to have first set off Insecto was my failure to respond to his last e-mail in a timely manner. He responded to my last e-mail with a question about static flying de-power kites, and this was near midnight Friday. Saturday I was away from my desk most of the day but had some downtime to make some quick posts on PKF from my iPhone. His question would have taken several paragraphs to answer and I was happy to do so, but I am not a teen that can text as fast as type, so it would have to wait till I'm at my desk. I get home Saturday late, have to feed and walk the dogs, get dinner (wife is away, so more chores) and watch the news. I figure I can catch up on e-mails Sunday morning. I wake up this morning and see the carnage on this thread and I'm like WTF?

Yes I give freely of my time and answer questions from customers and would be customers, but ON my time.

Insect o man, I assure you that Angus didn't reach any break even points by "floating" your $50 purchase. Most folks on here know he gets things out to you fast or he lets us know what the shipment time is if he doesn't have it. He is as ethical and customer service oriented a web retailer as you will find. He couldn't be well respected in this community if he was running a ponzi scheme on the shoulders of his customers. He just offers good customer service and friendly advice to promote the sport. Would he have all the original tutorial material free for your perusal if he was in this to be able to float order funds like Amazon.com? Obviously, you must be happy now with the full and prompt return of your "funds", so you hardly have anything to complain about any longer.

Having a degree in Marketing and Logistics, it is easy for me to understand why a kite shop wouldn't inventory every item they offer to customers in every size/color combination available from each of their companies they sell for. I guess it isn't so obvious to you. If you could realize that not a single power kite retailer here got into the business in order to get rich, you would see how silly your skepticism really is. There was one that got into it for the money once and he doesn't even fly kites anymore. He got in for the wrong reasons and it failed.

Sheesh, what the heck happened to this forum?
Somebody quick, re-start the LEI / Foil debate : )

This just got funnier. Only thing is, I could have shut this thread down sooner had I remembered but I was so taken aback this morning. Here is an excerpt from an Email I sent Insectoman on thursday night, where in two places I offered a complete refund...

++++++++++
BestKiteboarding is nearby and I can get these by early next week, or you could order direct from them maybe faster and I can refund your order. It is just not quite as long stretched (about 63" as opposed to 75"), but is pretty reasonably priced
http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/s.nl/it.A/id.595/.f

If you know another ready source to get what you need faster, please go ahead and I can refund. I am sorry for making what should be such a simple transaction so difficult.

+++++++++++

most entertaining thread of the year (so far) imao!

i'm not sure I want to imagine the kind of character it would take to top this one tho.... :evil::alien::puzzled:

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell I could have shut this thread down sooner had I remembered

You could have preempted the thread entirely by responding to my simple query regarding what your price for the bestboarding leash would be.

How hard would that have been?

Instead, you ignored it; and did so after having already charged my CC - which I didn't realize had been done until I looked at my CC registry online yesterday.

You offered to reverse a transfer of funds that a well behaving vendor wouldn't have made in the first place. Whether the item is $50.00 or $5,000.00 the principle is still the same - honest vendors don't take funds until the product is shipped.

You will also recall that I had to email you and ask what the status of "ordered" meant.

Your website represented the product as being available; it gave no indication the item had to be "ordered" for you to fulfill your part of the transaction.

You accepted funds for a transaction YOU had not fulfilled. You made no effort to contact me and tell me the item was back ordered - I HAD TO CONTACT YOU; and if I hadn't done so, there's no telling how long I'd have sat waiting sans product while you enjoyed the benefit of using my funds.

Maybe in your worldview that behavior is ethical - in mine it's NOT.