will have to be prepared for that , thanks BB

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999 no I'm talking about a total stall of the foil, it folds up and falls to the ground. It has somthing to do with the angle of attack, it is almost like the wind gets sucked out of the kite and it just folds up. I think due to the flat adjustment needed to get the kite to run forward, the line length between A,B, and C ar not in the right proportion and the leading edge starts to dig into the wind. The form itself is more like a bump instead of a wing. or one of the lines used in the bridle(a,b,orc) is streching so much that it is changing the AOA during flight. either way it was happening to everyone that was flying the kite. and we all know what we are doing. as far as the pumping goes the kite would start to run forward and then stop dead in its tracks. it never would really make it forward like a normal kite does it would just stay in the middle and pump without you changing a thing on the brakes. I had a 3.0 Brooza II that started pumping like that in 7Bft winds, I found out later that the dirtouts were open, After closing them problem was gone. I think the Reflex could be a great kite but it needs more work on the bridle adjustment and material.

Hi Krohn,
I am the distributor of Sky Country products in North America (located in Vancouver, BC, Canada). I am very sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience with Reflexes. This is the first time I have heard any negative feedback.
And I am very concerned. We strive for high customer support.
There has been an obvious mistake with kites settings and I am going to investigate it. I have sent the request already to Sky Country in the Ukraine regarding this matter.
I have never had Reflex to fall or stall, even when I was learning kiting on it. As a matter of fact I find it is very friendly and responsive, but at the same time it was very forgiving of my many errors and giving me time to recover.
In terms of response to pilot input, experienced pilots fly them like a stunt kite. With careful manipulation of the brakes they will sit and wait, and even rides backwards for you. reference the full death kite video
Now as a novice/intermediate rider, I love its smooth speed, and I know it sure can generate a lot of power when I loop it (I have learned to respect its response to quick changes in direction since I have been lofted several times bringing the kite to Zenith too fast).
As to material (which really puzzles me now, what on Earth was shipped to you), Sky Country is using a high quality top notch material light Skytex (same type of material is used in some parts of a paraglider), it has a perfect combination of durability and weight, and riders usually comment on its sleek look. Older models were built using the heavier, but substantially more durable, Gelvenor.
I am not sure what the problems were with the kites sent to you, but assure you this is not what has been experienced by pilots that we have dealt with.

Sorry to be late on this discussion, but I am busy writing code. It is so easy to get lost algorithms.
I have to admit to having limited experience with flying Reflexes in enough space to go over 55 km. Our local field, Garry Point Park, is so small that if you are doing above 55km you had better be able turn RFQ because either the perimeter chain or the river is coming up really fast. If you do not make that turn you are, to quote Russel Peters, "going to hurt real bad".
At NABX I only had my 4m Reflex with me. The winds were such that there was not a huge amount of time when the wind was right for a 4m. I did have some time out with tacks in the low 60s (kmph), I never noticed any tendency for the kite to suddenly drop from the sky. I did notice at high speeds that I had tomes where the apparent wind direction shift made the kite act as if you were going dead down wind. You could fix this by 'heading up" or driving the kite forward and up or down by pumping the brakes a bit or even jibing the kite but not the buggy. I never notice the kite pumping. This was with a 4m not a 6m or an 8m, so I really can not comment on the performance of these kites at these speeds.
How my Reflexes are set up: I like to fly with the kite flat. My brakes are tight enough that with the handles in the neutral position there is no slack in the brake lines. I am not sure why the brake leaders are so long the kites when shipped but I think it is so that you have enough brake leader at the kite that as power lines lines stretch you can make adjustment with having to make new brake leaders. With that set up I never have any problem looping my kites.
I am not sure what you mean when you say that the kite loops okay but does not seem to like it.
S

This is a reply to Krohn's post about flying Reflexes.
After talking to Yavorsky (one of the designers and directors and test
riders), Rakov (main designer) and Chris, here is some light on this
mystery.

Chris requested some kites for testing for his kite-shop, and received 5
and 7.2.
Chris flew the kites in different wind conditions. When they were flown in
winds outside recommended wind range ~20-25 miles kites experienced
unpredictable behavior.
Recommended max speed for 5 m is 43 km/h (=12 m/s). For 7.2 it is of course
less - 36 km/h (=10 m/s). The recommend wind ranges are found on the Sky
Country Canada web site: http://skycountry.ca/kites.php?model=reflex and
Sky Country's site: http://sky-country.com/en/products/kites/reflex/

Reflexes 3 and 4 would have been much better bets for the winds Chris was attempting to fly in. They have been flown in high winds with no issues whatsoever (no tendency of falling down, generates lots of power when looping, smooth controllable behavior).
Yavorsky said that the *pumping* is a known issue when a kite is flown beyond its speed limit. It happens because at high speeds a kite is flown at low angles and it tries to get back to higher ones, causing a kite to perform *S*s (which look and feel like *pumps*).

Both kites were flown before being sent and nothing unusual was noticed.
As Chris shared, adjustments have been made to settings right away. Keeping this in mind, the fact that kites and that the wind speed was exceeding kites maximum limits, explains the described kites behavior.

Quote:

I think the Reflex could be a great kite but it needs more work on the bridle adjustment and material.

I have to disagree with Chris on these points. The Reflex is a great kite. The brake leaders do require set up, but brake line tension is a highly personal matter. Sky Country provides brake leaders with enough length accommodate for individual taste and for the inevitable adjustment required as the power lines stretch.
As to the materials: the top and ribs
of Sky Country kites are made of high quality Gelvener , often noted by paraglider manufacturers for its extreme durability and resistance to abrasion.
The bottom is made of Porcher Marine SkyTex, noted for its high strength to weight ratio.
These materials are used in the manufacture of most paragliders, where people's lives depend on the quality of the materials used, and in high quality kites.

If by material you mean the kites material rather than the bridles then I have to agree with Solaris and Scudley.

That Gelvener material is pretty amazing. Light slick and strong. Seems to avoid staining as well. The material in the vents is equally amazing.

What was it about the material that didn't please you Krohn ?

I'll always vote PL or he might drive up from Ashburton and kick me in the ass next time I'm home :D

... I see why you buggy guys like the small foils though - the Cult, once it gets working like a $2 stripper, is an impressive source of power.
That's all, thread-jack over ...

most manufacture windranges are suggestions only and usually based on a 150 to 160lb person. you dont have to live by them. Also line length plays a huge role in performance too. also Khris is a racer, so if everyone is on 5m it would be stupid to size down.

adjusting too much brake, causes drag ... sometimes is better just to let loose.

In the case of Sky Country the max wind range is determined mathematically with dimensionless variables, such as Froude and Reynolds numbers. The max wind speed listed is when the speed of the kite through the wind causes the loss of wing stability. I guess that is the difference between how an aeronautical engineer looks at this and someone who build but gut feeling.
The max wind speed listed for my 10m is 8m/s (28.8 kmph or about 18 mph). I would never take it out in more than half that unless I wanted to know what being racked felt like.
Rip, you know as well as I do that choice of kite for a given wind speed depends on more than size. We all know that not all 5m are the same. As an ex Uturn dealer I am sure that you would not say that a 5m Helium was anything like a 5m Evo Nitro.
S

NOT ex Dealer, get you facts straight ... last time i checked im still 110% distributor for Canada and USA. I personally may not fly U-Turn but that doesnt mean i dont sell them to dealers.

www.ripsessionkites.com

your comparing apples to oranges, Chris is comparing the reflex to other race kites, which SC claims is a race kite by the canada website but the main manufacture website states otherwise.

this is starting into a debate, ill stop here. its better to prove it on the race course. see ya at NABX, SOBB, Eurocup or World Cup.

@ Solaris Interesting to read here that you had discussions with me about „my problem“. Could you please tell me how you contacted me? I guess I must have been really drunk on that day, I don’t ever remember ever talking/writing to you!

It is very interesting to know that U2U’s that I sent Scudly are being sent around the world. I‘ll have to remember that for the future when answering questions from people.

Wind range: Yes I was flying the 7 Reflex above it’s, from sky country suggested, wind range,

by aprox. 2,63 mph. (10m/s = 22,639 mph)
BTW:
The 5 is supposed to be good up to 12m/s so 26,84mph and therefore in the range of wind that I was flying in. Do the math!

Wow so if you want to fly this kite make sure you have a wind meter in plane sight at all times. If the wind goes above the suggested wind speed the kite will, as Solaris said, “experienced unpredictable behavior”

The “Adjustments” that I made “right away” were standard adjustments need to be able to do things like land the kite without having to grab the lines in front of the handles.
Later I did do small adjustments to the kite and, like I said, was able to improve the stability.

…… but you know what I don’t want/need to try to convince anybody of anything. Go out buy yourself a Reflex and if you have an opinion on it, keep it to yourself!

@ Bladerunner, The Material that I am referring to is the Bridle lines and the RTF set. The Canopy is made very well using good materials.

it's all mute now, I already bought the 8.6 PL REACTOR II , it will be here in about 2 wks. thanks to everybody for helpin me spend my money wisely. Reactor II won hands down. did not mean to start a aeronautical war or anything, Guess you folks need to meet up at Ivanapah and settle this thang.

I'll have mine at NABX but hope I don't need it. I'm ready to experience some higher speeds. WG you will be thrilled the first time that 8.6 lets you ride when there wasn't enough wind for your other kites to pull you. I can't wait for your impressions.

Glad you got your light wind engine WG. Now your all set if the winds are low at WW bash. Of course I'll be gunnin' for you with the 8.5 blade See ya soon:wee:

KG , maybe next year I'll get a blade. I can't wait to meet and fly w/ everyone,it's gonna be a blast. I'm gonna bring my alloy bug w/ tandem trailer. And a very special, SHINY surprise I have been workin on lately.

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD And a very special, SHINY surprise I have been workin on lately.

I like SHINY :wink2:

Hi guys, sorry for a late follow up.
About couple months ago I only came across news that Reflex 7m (on a bar) won a 28 km race.
Rider: Tadas Sidaravčius
Place: Lithuania
Kite: Sky Country Reflex 7
Distance: 28 km
Time: 55 minutes
Conditions were quite challenging: wind from 5 to 12 m/s, snow mixed with ice. Only 17 out of 37 made it to the finish.
Results:
http://www.extreme-sports.lt/media/windsurf/data/2010rezultatai/kitegp1/10ZKCros.html
Info:
http://www.extreme-sports.lt/pages/posts/snieguota-nida-nuspalvino-jegos-aitvarai518.php

It looks like the winner kite has the same cool bright colors I have ordered for my own 3m (which is with Dakitez now)

Quote:

Originally posted by solaris It looks like the winner kite has the same cool bright colors I have ordered for my own 3m (which is with Dakitez now)

did I win a kite? it must be my lucky day. What did I win?

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ Quote: Originally posted by solaris It looks like the winner kite has the same cool bright colors I have ordered for my own 3m (which is with Dakitez now) did I win a kite? it must be my lucky day. What did I win?

LOL! This is way too funny. I swear I am not on crack, it was late at night when I posted yesterday, and my best friend insomnia was visiting me. It happened to be that at that time I was looking at dakites website, and wrote his name here.
But I meant windofchange, WINDOFCHANGE ...
Sorry for a confusion

since you got a reactor, i guess the point is mute--still, the blade would be cool if you had MILES of space,but occasionally you will have to fight it--i would have taken the reflex--tremendous grunt--even so, lots of space needed for sure......

NTK, I got enough space for em. I did not want a lifty kite or a kite that is not that well known and even less known about. So the obvious choice was the reactorII 8.6m. And it rocks. Now I use it to landboard with when there is like no wind.
I had it out in 15+ mph last wknd doin jumps, WOW ! You don't even have to try to jump, and talk about float.
I still have not buggied "hotwired" w/ it . It turns really slow ,so I'm unsure of how that will work out.

Roland and his father, Ed, seem to do pretty well the 8m Reflex in relatively our pretty small field. They bought Tonka's 8m Reflex. It turns pretty fast. Ed, who has only been flying for less than a year, can get a couple of loops out it in a 300m tack. I think they are pretty happy Weldngod bought the ReactorII too.

S

skycountry.ca

Those big reactors don't turn well with just push/pull input. But brake turns make it spin right around. Even in light winds this is the case for me. I know you are more advanced than for me to be teaching you kite flying tips though WG. :embarrased:

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob Those big reactors don't turn well with just push/pull input. But brake turns make it spin right around. Even in light winds this is the case for me. I know you are more advanced than for me to be teaching you kite flying tips though WG. :embarrased:

there are few tuning tips ... not everyone likes them one way out of the bag. i have mine setup to be a little faster forward + less brake tension

i also flew the 10.8 on 15m lines as well. the 8.6 is a good size to have over the 10.8.

like BB said, brake turning helps, and also holding the handles under the Strop line makes turning fast.

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites there are few tuning tips ...

what are they....? you mentioned holding the handles lower, any others...? :puzzled:

I have a Reactor II that I did not get along with at first... All my other kites like just a bit of tension on the brake lines. The Reactors do not. You have to let them run and only use brake input to help turn or land.

I put knots in the power line leaders on the handles so there was no chance of putting the brakes on unless you meant to.

Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by RonH I have a Reactor II that I did not get along with at first... All my other kites like just a bit of tension on the brake lines. The Reactors do not. You have to let them run and only use brake input to help turn or land. I put knots in the power line leaders on the handles so there was no chance of putting the brakes on unless you meant to. Ron

Wow, the Reactors were the kites that taught me the benefits of a little brake tension. Something might be tuned different on your kite. My reactors and RIIs like brake tension for an extra boost. They say to NOT use brake tension on the dry lake bed but I didn't hear that till after nabx this year. I'll give it a try next time I'm there.

these reactors sound nice--you can jump with them too?

Quote:

Originally posted by newtokiting these reactors sound nice--you can jump with them too?

you can jump with any kite... given the right/wrong winds... these are more buggy engines... blades, twisters, and crossfires are your big jumping kites

@BB

The Reactor II will give boost with a little brake tension but maybe something is up with my bridle compared to others... ( I have flown 3.5, 5.5 & 10.8 and this happens with all.)

Some of the problem is we fly in a small park and do not have the space to let er rip. Any brake tension while trying to turn up to sine the kite will cause it to stall or slide instead of going up. This does go away after you have gained speed. (my guess is when you are at or above the current wind speed.)

Ron

BB, not to worry dude. I just meant that it is slower turning (even w/ brake input) than say my 4.7 rage and that is a sloth compared to a2.5 rage. My primary turning input is w/ brakes ,the push/pull is the extra boost for me. I use adjustable leaders for both power and brake , so I can fly different kites w/ 1 handleset. Works great, but I need to finish my pulley handles to give a little more turning power over the 8.6 RII.