Thanks for the comformation. Unless you just have to fly with a bar then I do not see any advantages flying that way. It seems that you loose a lot when you are combining the power and brake lines and flying the nasa wing as a two line kite with the third brake line and not a four line kite that had two power and two brake lines. What about launching the kite upside down.

Susan (npw goddess)

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Originally posted by skimtwashington I think you are correct, Susan. The Video posted on 4/14 in this thread seem to show and somewhat explain. It's too bad you dont have a system where you can remain hooked to harness to keep power there, and not on your arms while using depower...much like a regular foil depower does. But It's a very different set up. Basicall y a 3rd 'brake' line(on nose) sliding thru bar hole center vs the powerlines sliding thru same on foil depower. Seems the only way to depower hooked in(shed some full power) in fixed position with Born Nasa is to steer bar with one hand and pull ball with other hand slowly(too much it will lose all power and collapse). This seems akward. But flying unhooked you have the depower. Tried Jens and Owen's at WBB. Susan, you should try and make a depower like these( unless design is patented). If you never tried one , they are an interesting step up from a simple NASA.

Great point Susan.

The control of Quad over the bar is superior. Adding a depower to the bar does nothing for contol in manuevering, really... but more for just power control or emergency release.

More interesting than a 'step up'. Maybe mispoke with that!

If you look at the Z-bridal set up.....it seem there are bridals that connect to both power(indirectly) and brake at same time... so probaly flys slightly different than standard quad set up Nasa...But more or less-independent power and brake line control

The Z bridle was only ever intended for people without quad experience - you can certainly rig the kite up as a standard four line (without the Z bridle) which takes care of the upside down launching.

I do not find the 'depower' particularly useful when flying although I have had to grab the red ball on a couple of occasions. And yes, to use the bar to depower, you have to unhook which is a little awkward. I treat it more as a sort of 'flag out' option to land the kite - which is a little messy but always works. The trouble is with the depower is it makes the kite slow down and sit back in the window which is the opposite from a normal depower.

On one occasion when flying the 10m, I got hit by a gust and dragged towards some trees - I hit the safety and dumped the kite onto the depower/flag out line which immediately dumped all the power from the kite - so the system certainly has it's merits - you just have to get used to treating it a little differently.

I'm not sure if I've posted this video - flying on handles in a standard four line config...

Hello down under, John..... from Up Over....and just to the left!

Lots of options then with this NASA- Fair Dinkum!

Thanks for sharing.


I went to the NASA Space center in Cocoa Beach Florida and showed them my NASA wing and they said,"What is it?" :o

I said,"first off..this is yours..."

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Unless you just have to fly with a bar then I do not see any advantages flying that way. It seems that you loose a lot when you are combining the power and brake lines and flying the nasa wing as a two line kite with the third brake line and not a four line kite that had two power and two brake lines.

When flying the Nasa's on the bar, I do miss the convenience of pulling the brakes and parking the kite on it's rear. But in return for that, I get to sit quite straight in the buggy (I always find myself turned towards the kite with handles) and control with one hand is easy - which leaves me free to film/wave/gesticulate ! etc or wrap my other arm around the side rail. So for my style of riding, the bar is perfect. It's just a little more inconvenient when landing - I tend to fly it down to edge of the window, dump it onto it's third line then go and sand the kite. If I was putting the kite down all the time, then the handles would be far more convenient.

I've messed about with the turbo bar and a depower bar with dubious results although I haven't tried using the Z bridle set up with a depower bar....that could be interesting.

There's always more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

turbo-bar + nasastar2 in 4line mode doesnt work well ?
thats a pity.. would be a perfect setup - one handed riding, but still the ability to stall (land) the kite or to release a bit of brake tension to let it fly forwards.

my personal experience: flying the nasastar2 on a bar is fine, if you have smooth, stable wind.
but if the find is very gusty as its typical for my inland conditions, its much better to fly the nasastar in quad mode. now that dreaded backwards-flying of nasawings can be avoided by easing off the brakes a little. i get the backwardsflying usually if the wind drops below a certain limit. then the kite backstalls. but it does not only backstall, but starts flying backwards if the wind pics up again. the most annoying property of nasawings in 2line mode ! all that goes away if flying in 4line mode.

what i like about nasawings: they fly in almost nil wind, have good power per squaremeter (much more than other kites) and are extremely stable especially on a short or no line setup. this makes them the perfect match for kiting in thight spots . who would have thought that? nasawings enabled a new sport or at least gave it recently a name: "streetkiting".

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i get the backwardsflying usually if the wind drops below a certain limit. then the kite backstalls. but it does not only backstall, but starts flying backwards if the wind pics up again. the most annoying property of nasawings in 2line mode ! all that goes away if flying in 4line mode.

Yep, ditto that. If I try and hold the kite stationary in light wind, it can start flying backwards. A bit more wind and no problem otherwise I just consciously keep it moving - and I'm normally on 20m lines so it's no real problem.

I'll try and experiment a bit more with a 4 line depower bar in combo with the Z bridles and see what happens...

The main problem with the Nasa's depower system is that to be fully functional the load is on the arms - both uncomfortable and with potential safety issues. Otherwise it is one hand operation. While not particularly convenient with a bar it is quite ok with handles since only one (downwind) hand is needed to control the kite (other than the moments when both brakes need to be applied) so that there is a free hand available to pull on the nose line. At Wind Propulsion Institute we have used this 5 line configuration and it works well giving the advantage of brakes as well as "nose" power control. The 5 line has adjustable length to adjust the static power while the additional pull with the free hand controls dynamic power. Peronally, in my typically low drag (i.e. low force) applications I have not much use for dynamic power control but the 5-th line conveniently controls the kite size. I have also used short, 4 m line set in this configuration and it works very well - the difficulty being in maintaining high speed jibes - quite difficult with short lines with any kite.

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While not particularly convenient with a bar it is quite ok with handles since only one (downwind) hand is needed to control the kite (other than the moments when both brakes need to be applied)

Exactly how do you do that? If I'm flying on handles I need to maintain pressure on the brakes as well as the power lines - I don't believe I am able to fly a nasa wing on handles with one hand.....unless I rigged up a strop and pulley in just the right spot on the handles. But when on handles, the depower system is not used (nor needed).

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so that there is a free hand available to pull on the nose line.

You're running a fifth line with handles?

I am yet to come across a kite that requires a continuous brake pressure. If I ever find one it will only tell me that the canopy is poorly designed and, if for some reason I had to use it, I would simply shorten the brake lines so I would not have to pull on them. The Nasa in question flies perfectly ok with handles and one hand, no brake input required just like any other FB.

5-th line provides depower feature (for someone who needs it) more efficiently than brakes do. It reduces the usable window less than brakes do and so lessens the effect of increase in parasitic side pull. The length can be adjusted to provide a reduced pull from a kite too big for the conditions in addition to the option of depower with the free hand.

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Originally posted by Prussik I am yet to come across a kite that requires a continuous brake pressure. If I ever find one it will only tell me that the canopy is poorly designed and.....

Not sure I understand the your statement, you talking about the nasa wings or all fb's?


I have found that the Z-bridle(I set up the same type of thing on one of my NPW's before I switched to the PKD handles) is more or less opposite the bar. With the bar and the line to the nose, it will kill the kite rather quick. The Z-bridle set up will kill the kite also but with the brakes. Looks to be the determining factor is are you a bar or handle flyer? Both work quite well for the kite.

You can park and ride with the Z-bridle/handles if you use a strop. I use that type of idea with mine and find it is doable with one hand or no hands if I need to make a sandwich or answer the phone while riding.
For me the greatest ease of the NPW's that Susan makes is that they require brakes, much like the Rev's. One way to over come that is to move the strop down the handle towards the brakes until it balances out the kite. If your handles have the ability to adjust the brakes as the PKD handles you can tighten up the brakes as you fly until the kite balances out and it is now the same as if on a bar, one handed flying. I have set up all my NPW's this way, I like to adjust the brakes out just a hair so the kite runs about 75% and use the brakes to turn on the gas. Something about one handed flying for me that is a bit uneasy, I feel better with both hands on the handles. Not that I am hanging on for dear life, just keep the fingers on the handles to feather the kite if the wind isn't clean.

I am waiting for a couple of the Born kites to show up for a bit of playing, bar and Z-bridle to boot.

Doh. I just posted an NPW question in the other forum about best 0(3) wind NPW size. Correct me if I'm wrong, John, but the answer is basically "as big as you can?"

because of the high camber of nasawings, they usually have much higher "pull" than a similiar sized open cell foil. my suggestion would be max 12 sqm, if you have very smooth but weak coastal winds.
with gusty inland winds, i would suggest a 7 sqm or 10 sqm nasawing in quad mode and on long lines. quad mode, because in lulls you can release the brakes a bit and avoid stalling and subsequent backwards flying of the nasawing ...

its true: of no other foil can fly, you can still have some limited fun with a big nasawing... for example using ski on hardpacked snow or ice; inline skates on smooth asphalt etc.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, John, but the answer is basically "as big as you can?

For buggying, yes. For static flying......maybe. If you put up a 15m Nasa in light winds, once you get it moving, it may have too much pull for general friends and family so it may be an idea to have something around the 5m mark for those duties (which will still fly in 3-4mph or so) and a 7 or 10 or 12 for yourself.

Of course the two things that weigh heavily in the Nasa's favor are: they're (relatively) dirt cheap (I think around 179 Euros for the 7m kite only) so you could get a few different sizes. And you can plow them nose down into the ground with no fear of something bursting.

I'm not convinced that Nasa's have more pull than foil kites. It's just that they produce their pull at much slower speeds, and deeper in the window than an equivalent foil. When running my 4m Nasa Star 2 against a 4m Ozone Flow, the Nasa seemed to perform better in 13knots or less where as the Flow had an advantage in 18-20 knots. Mind you, there was only ever a couple of mph between the two kites regardless of wind speed, upwind or downwind.

One thing to mention that may or may not be an advantage - they have very little lift when above your head. Great for slowing the buggy down quickly without fear of getting lofted. Not so good if you're trying to jump with one! In fact, I think you can pretty well forget jumping altogether with these....in sane conditions anyway.

Edit: After having a few sessions recently at my local beach, I was quite surprised by the Nasa Star's upwind ability. Providing you are carrying a fair bit of power, I did not feel I was getting much further upwind with any of my low to mid aspect foils. I had originally felt that I might lose 10-15 percent of my upwind ability compared to a foil but now I feel that it's much less than that.....providing you're well powered.

4m Yellow and a mountian board...may be too small.




5.5m Red and a longboard looks better.
(John is in the credits for music).




7m Blue in no wind and a longboard, maybe not so fun.


Instant pull and not much apparent wind effect.

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Instant pull and not much apparent wind effect.

The apparent wind effect certainly kicks in with the buggy on the beach. If the wind is too light to park and ride straight away, it usually doesn't take too much working of the kite before it 'locks in'. Mind you, unlike the videos, I have 20m lines, giving me heaps more room to work the kite in the window.

I've only tried the short/no lines in the buggy once - I had been cruising up and down the paddock with 20m lines on the 2.5m and just before I finished, I tried the 4m straight off the bar......and couldn't move the buggy at all!

First time I ever flew the 4m, I had it on 6m lines and thought.....meh, not much pull there. Then I put it on 20m lines......HUGE difference.

Thanks John,

To clarify it appears the nasa shortline advantage on a longboard/landboard is for small spaces, no sine needed, direct power delivery (not an advantage if gusty...), and simple. Apparent wind is about the same as actual wind as the longboard is travelling quite slowly.

From this:


To this:



I assume your buggy can get you moving more like this?



Looks like longboarding/flying the nasa on the shortlines almost horizontally, the tension and drag vectors are near max while the lift and weight vectors are very small.



Was just trying to see in the videos real life conditions and what size might be best...a 5.5m foil kite on 20m lines and a longboard on pavement might be a handful

from my limited experience using nasawings and inline skates:

1. with skates (and probably longboard) on asphalt you need very little pull to get rolling and you accelerate rapidly.
2. with nasawing on short lines, you can very quickly regulate the angle of the kite relative to the horizon. if you feel that you are getting too fast, you can simply (and quickly!!) place the kite from a horizontal 0°, accelerating position to a vertical, 90° position that just generates lift and no forward acceleration.
3. you can even place it "behind" at 120° to get a braking effect...
4. because of the properties of the nasawing (high camber, rather high AoA) it is rather stable on short / no lines.. using for example a opencell like PL twister, i frequently got front collapes because in gusts the kite wants to fly out of the window.. you can watch it of course and brake to avoid that, but its really much more relaxing with a nasawing, that simply sits there deep(er) in the window and does no nasty things ...

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Thanks John, To clarify it appears the nasa shortline advantage on a longboard/landboard is for small spaces, no sine needed, direct power delivery (not an advantage if gusty...), and simple. Apparent wind is about the same as actual wind as the longboard is travelling quite slowly.

Sounds about right to me, but as I don't use them that way, I would be guided by what Herc says.

I can tell you that once up to speed, with a 5.5m on 20m lines, there is a LOT of side pull. And to comfortably go upwind, you need to be well powered - at least with the buggy on sand. But as Herc says, you can throw the kite up and a little behind you without too much fear of getting launched out of the buggy and it makes for a very good brake.

I would guess that the closer the kite is to you, the more disturbed the airflow will be - which looks apparent to me from watching the videos.

As for throwing vector graphs at me.....that's just evil!

.. and sums up the advantages of short lined Nasa wings nicely.

Apparently has enough, if limited experience!

I agree with Herc for the most part.
I think in the vids the reason for the no line use of the kite is for the ease of seeing the kite and the boarder in the same shot. Makes understanding of the workings of all parts easier to understand. Granted longer lines will increase power and will also decrease control to a point and then moves in the opposite direction as the lines get longer and longer. Not sure of the Born-Kites in relationship to short/long lines as I am still waiting for my order. But with the NPWs I had made by Susan, that is my findings.
The kite has to travel trough the window to generate power. I have buggied at NABX with nothing more than opening my coat. Was I able to go upwind or out and back? NO. I only went in the direction the wind was blowing. I couldnt generate any power. If I could put some string on my coat and fly it from side to side, then I would be able to generate some power to go out and back.
The fact that the vids show a boarder on a hard surface is OK for the vid, but on grass or sand the factors change. Wouldn't be a good vid for the sales department if not on asphalt. Also, using any kite on lines in an are as closed in as the vids show would not be a wise choice. I get a bit overwhelmed with 200' plus at Alvord or Ivanpah let alone the beach.

Anyone in the PNW that has a desire to try out the Born-Kites, let me know. I will have them to demo and will be bringing them to NABX, WWBB, and Jibe.
PistolPete, we can meet at Marymoor and cruise the bike path with them. We can make our own vids.:bigok:

All great insight, herc seems to put it in words very well.

Sorry about the math John, that was kind of evil :ticking:

Marymoor bike path no lines and soccer field with lines would be fun sometime Jeff.

Some other no-liners

I've always had a little difficulty when landing the Nasa Star 2's with the third (depower) line...the kite tends to drift back to the center of the window in a bit of a heap. Turns out there's an easy way to do it.....

they sent this one and another to me the other day when I asked about landing them. I was under the idea the depower/center line was about landing. Wrong.
Still very happy with the new kites:bigok:

So... Bar or handles, bigkid?

I got all 4 sizes and both bars along with the string thing setup for the handles. I have only had time to fly the kites with the basic bar set up with 20m lines. Now that I got a bit of time with the kites I hope to get out for a bit of time with the depower bar and the handle setup in a few days.
I did have a good go at the 7m on the bar without a kite killer. everyone else that day was out with 8-10m FB kites and the 7m was a bit to much even at the zenith while lifting me up a bit more than I wanted for the moment. Ended up bugging with the cute little green one.
I defiantly want to play a lot more with them, I will have them at the next 4 events(NABX, WW, JIBE, SOBB) if any off you have any interest.

Would this work with an ozone turbo bar? There you have brake control, and even control of individual brakes to a degree.
I'm very interested in Nasa wings, I just think that snowboarding and handles gets a bit too difficult so I'd prefer a bar..

with proper tuning, it will work for sure with the turbobar. but the brakes on nasawings have a very sharp "sweet spot" where it will fly without flutter.

maybe John could make a video, because he has both - nasawings and a turbo bar ?

There is a mod you can do to Nasawings, dual the brake bridle line ups. By that I mean run a separate bidle line to the power line group. This then means it will fly with more "slack" brake lines rather than a constant input to keep the TE tension.