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Originally posted by MDK They have to be annoyed with our critique, but hopefully they will take it in a positive way. I respect all the work that has gone into it.

I have had contact with Dave Hobbs who is watching forums around the world and he is more than happy with the reaction his buggy is receiving, if Dave is anything like me, one honest critique is better than a thousand "thats lovely" comments any day.....thats how to evolve, learn and move forward. We have all given critique from just a few photos so far which is a little unfair really. The new website will launch on the 1st Nov, so I am sure we will find out much more about the concept

It looks like Cris Italy is going to have this down at Sandy Point from Friday till Tue/Wed. Hopefully, quite a few of us will get to give it run on the beach. I'll get some footage and photos and post them up when I get back next week. I quite like the idea of having a large cruising buggy that disassembles and packs up quickly.

Looks like they actually have considered break down for transport and storage !

If they are hoping to sell to the masses I think that this was as important as anything.

Next important point will be the price point. Any idea what these will sell for ?

Folks that think we have a motor someplace are going to be extra confused looking at this machine.

I think it's an huge step forward and I hope they make a firm mark on the buggy market !

Looks cool but I don't want to think about the shipping cost to get one here. I've had a lot of interest for my product in Australia until I quoted them shipping. The main section doesn't pack up as tidy as a pair of side rails and fabric seat. It's a great prototype but far from production for the rest of the world. Might just be a local flavor.

I can't believe that this thing still weighs 58kg!!! Even with the use of carbon fibre.
Also the high seat back might act as a big air brake.

It will be interesting to hear the reports from the boys at the speed week meet. Shattered that I can't make it to the meet this year.

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Originally posted by andy666 I can't believe that this thing still weighs 58kg!!! Even with the use of carbon fibre. Also the high seat back might act as a big air brake. It will be interesting to hear the reports from the boys at the speed week meet. Shattered that I can't make it to the meet this year.

When you start adding shocks, the weight rises considerably added to that the shock housings and before you know it you are back to a weighty buggy again.

I do not see the high back of the buggy as an issue as that is where the pilot sits anyway,.....but I do see a "possible" issue with not being able to lean back slightly or even tilting you head back during upwind turns

This buggy has been getting to much of my brain time. I've been looking at shocks and trying to work through the idea of them on a buggy. The fact that they are pumped up to 250lbs is beyond any of my hand pumps by 200lbs. I will not take my shop compressor out to the beach so all that is left are those cheep plug into the car compressors that are not accurate at high pressures. Besides the fact that the shocks are basically topped out with air pressure, and the cost to replace them is not cheep, especially if they are sold in pairs, makes me wonder if they are overkill and or could be eliminated completely.

The other aspect of the bug is the "keel". It looks a bit low in the picture, wonder if you would do any damage if it were to run over some of the crap here on our beaches. A bruised bum is not uncommon here. On most bugs you can adjust the height/angle at the point where the siderails meet the downtube.

It says that you add padding to the seat for fit. I think of the skateboard helmets that you stick a few pieces of foam inside to make it smaller. As soon as I drop into the seat with my harness on will the padding stay put or role off and stick to my pants?

I so want to look at this bug and try it out. I hope the website does it justice and shows some great shots of the "stuff". I can only hope.

I have come to the conclusion after looking at the pictures, this bug will float.:bigok:

The buggy looks great! I am sure its probably not perfect ... but hey its their first prototype. This buggy designer is pushing the envelope and I love to see that to help the sport grow. I firmly believe there is a better design for buggies in the future than the buggies we are currently riding. The amount of time, thought, and money put into this buggy has me excited about what they might come up with in the near future.

The buggy is awesome, love the look of the carbon fiber, the downtube is just sexy, love the front fork design. The only thing that is an issue will be the price. I can only assume that with gas loaded shocks and all the carbon, the cost will need to be be well over 2K. That alone will kill the sales to everyone but a very few elite.

I was looking at it thinking the price would be around 4-5k.

Did you guys have a look at their web site now its live...I wondered if anyones view of it had changed either way?

http://www.carbonkitebuggy.com/

I still think it looks out of this world, I wondered why go the shock route when they even admit it is extremely stiff...if its that stiff whats the point of shock....the front end is lovely, and the leading link type suspension, in my opinion would have been better with elastomers....nothing to worry about then and does the same job....but agree it does not look as appealing as this front end....but will these four shocks stand up to sand and sea water.....,
The mononcoque, well it looks amazing but you lose the hanging effect you get with a standard seat and the varied widths of rails, that is a biggish compromise, if that monocoque fits you perfect you are laughing, although I do wonder about leaning back or looking up at the kite near zenith, vertically challenged people such as myself will be banging our helmets on the back of the monocoque.....
People will always find something wrong with something, its the easiest thing to do....but I have to keep looking at this buggy and looking and looking....whether is fantastic or not, you cant take away the fact they have produced an amzing looking product.

I looked at it. Nice website! and I am a little more impressed with the bug...but I am still hung up on a one piece axle and the need for cargo space. something else too I am still in a love affair with the PTW Playa and I am not ready for the plastic look and/or feel. but I am still very impressed with the bug and the website!

If this isn't the end all be all buggy of the future, I do really like the slickness of the push pins. My big concerns at this point are the security of the seat and the ride height. I set up my buggy with just 2 fingers clearance under my seat. I use that low COG to my advantage since I don't worry about the buggy rolling over. Pics look like the pilot's rear end might be 8-10" off the ground with the seat thickness and the way it rides above the downtube. A set of barrows might be just what the doctor ordered for ride height if the "keel" can maintain clearance.

Seeing this design has me wondering about some vibration isolation by using elastomers front and rear. I wouldn't want much travel, just isolation like in a motor mount in a car.

This buggy might help start a new wave of innovation in our sport. I'm glad it is making us all think about what the future might hold.

Had a chance to look at the buggy last night, Dave brought it as promised.
A number of buggiers had a good look, a sit in it, grilled dave on various aspects of it's engineering and design.

First impressions are the pictures on the website don't do justice for it's looks, it looks fantastic, probably won't get a lot of arguments there....

Possibly two considerations much debated, ....the seat, a completely diffent style of seat from the usual fabric version, a number ranging from 5 ft 6 to 6 ft 3 sat in it and were comfortable, it has various rubber linings with abrasion resistant around the harness area, a cutaway section allows kite lines clearance to the sides, questions have been raised about would you pop out under load, well it does have a seatbelt and further testing will clarify this point, it would appear that it's a one size seat fits all, and although a bunch sat in it, no really WIDE person did so if you are XXXXXS will you fit... Who knows. The current seat will be replaced with a lighter weight material in the same shape, and current axles are way over size in wall thickness, so possibly a further 8 kg could be removed ( so david suggested anyway)
The suspension, although on a very low setting ( davids not real heavy) it didn't bottom out with a 90 + kg person sitting and jumping on it, it actually felt like a suspension, so some give was noticeable, it will be interesting to see how it works out over the next few days once people take it for a ride. Apparently too the suspension components are available from other sources so if you needed replacements you could source them elsewhere, a pump comes with it to go to the 300psi they can go to.
Well that's first impressions, did I like it...... Oh yeah, based on looks alone even just as a cruiser even if it didn't have the handling etc, it would still sell. Cost, well various things were discussed, David indicated more information would be forthcoming.
Although it's only a limited number playing with it at the moment here in Australia, it has been brought down so that it can be assessed and commented on in real world tests, can't ask for more than that, personally I hope it handles better than some predictions but time will tell.

Great to hear real feedback Clive, thank you for sharing that

Just spent some time on the website and I am more frustrated with it now than before. All the time and money spent on the bug, I think I would have paid a real company to take pictures and videos. Sorry, but a black back ground for a black buggy works real well in showing the black
The thought of some light to see the rear tire going on and off would be kind of nice, that way I could see if the idea came from Blokart or not.

And I guess you would want to keep a cover on it and keep it in the deep freeze for storage, sun light, salt water and heat are not the bugs friend.
And the warranty is basically saying, don't have a good time cause it isn't covered. "reasonable use" is the term used, that rules me and a few other buggyers out.

I like the idea of new thinking and doing things outside of the box, but this is not getting better for me, but just the opposite. The more I see and read the more I am turned off by it. I keep trying to see the positive aspects of the design and all I see are the disadvantages. I do like the push pin idea, I like that alot.

I keep thinking of the kid who buys a new Acura and chops and lowers the suspension, puts on all the body extras to make it aerodynamic, and adds the biggest base thumper that the trunk can hold and cant drive it because it will bottom out on the road and cut the tires into the wheel wells and the trunk fell off because of the vibrations from the speakers, with duct tape holding the front spoiler up after it kissed the curb the first time it was parked. But it looks bad a$$.

If it comes to the USA for a pass around, I WANT TO BE FIRST ON THE LIST.:evil: Then I can post a review from fact instead of opinion.

It looks sweet as hell that's for sure! I think I would rather have roto-molded plastic for the seat than carbon fiber, at least then you can fix the damn thing yourself if it has to be done. Yeah, that probably wouldn't work well but if I can't fix it myself I'm not gonna buy it. I like that I can fix 99% of my buggy if anything breaks.

Well speed week is over, or should I say slow week. The wind was very unproductive, we did manage an hour of good wind this morning only to have it die off completely.
The carbon buggy got a run, cris Italy had a few passes, so some video footage will be coming at some stage.
David brought the buggy down for us to have a run in and get some feedback, given he didn't put a price on it and was reluctant to do so could indicate he expected further development was needed, and the consensus was yes it does. Obvious to some was the suspension setup, further revision and even removal would be needed. Padding to the edges of the seat required some revision.
Dave took onboard our kind, and possibly unkind comments, you have to give him credit for trying and being open with everyone down here, he is going to do further work on it, he's not going to give up and I look forward to seeing an improved version.
My wife had a look and said where do you put your spare kite and stuff...... Can't fault her thinking as we often do long runs and getting left out or stranded due to a wind velocity change can be frustrating, plus a break for a snack and a chat is always good.
The carbon buggy will no doubt reappear soon enough and I wish Dave all the best with his project....... And feel free to let us have another look next time too
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Clive, nice report. I like your wifes thinking, its the simple things that are often over looked. I to, hope the best for the out come of the bug.
I think it was the setup, and all the hype of a new bug that will revolutionize buggies for evermore, that turned me off.
I will wait for the revisions of the revisions before I will think about the bug again.
Carry on Dave, this is a great buggy to start with, can't wait for the finished product.:bigok:

Thanks for the feedback Clive, thats what we have been waiting for and just tidies all the loose ends up, Sounds like Dave is listening to construtive criticism which can be nothing but good

Well, the wind didn't exactly cooperate down at Sandy Point over the weekend. Cris managed a few runs in the Carbon Buggy, but none of us did the km's we were hoping to. In the end, we gave David a fair bit to think about (and probably a few grey hairs!). A few minor modifications needed here and there and the suspension showed it's shortcomings under load - it may even be removed the next time we see it. A few changes to tolerances and materials to be made also.

Managed to get a bit of footage which I hope will show it better from a few different angles. BTW - the brackets underneath loosen to slide the seat fore and aft. Seat is actually quite comfy and has plenty of room to lean back for upwind turns too.

got'a hand it to'um it is sexy! one piece axle and cargo space and he has something. one piece axle will reduce the cost considerably. since he was shy to tell

I am a designer, and I have learned to be careful not to go too far.... build from what works...evolve. designs that go too far are usually not excepted or don't last. JMHO

I received this email from Dave, I hope he does not mind me sharing it with you guys

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Hi Carl, After plenty of good feedback from speedweek the buggy will now undergo some revision before its release to the market. Most noticeably to the suspension which as many have commented on did not perform as I would have hoped. I believe that it generated to much traction which although great on straight runs made power slides incredibly difficult even in the hands of Cris Italy. The other issue with utilizing a fully adjustable suspension is 'set up' together with to many variables ie pilot weight, surface etc. Modifications to be made will include Removal of suspension and a standard style front end assembly manufactured - this will reduce weight and cost One size fits all seat - This will be replaced by manufacturing seat hip / leg size mouldings for different sized bodies that will be bonded to the inside of the seat during manufacture. Attached is a photo of a proposed rear axle strut which will require extensive destructive testing prior to release. Material - carbon fibre aerofoil shape - weight 420 grams Many Thanks for the hospitality and support off all who attended Extreme Kites Speedweek including Joel, Cris, John, Nigel and many more! Kind Regards Dave Hobbs

Dave has had critism from around the globe about his new buggy, and to be honest with a claim "the most advanced production buggy on the planet"
the buggy was always going to get extremely eyeballed from everyone....and rightly so with such a bold statement.

What has come out of all this is certainly from me anyway, a great respect for not only trying to take the kite buggy to the next level, but more so the way he has listened to constructive critism and taken it all on board, and now heading back to the factory to rectify problems and issues, and come back stronger and better.....he has not even once defended himself vocally on the forums which I know he watches, which is extremely difficult to do, everyone wants to defend their baby right...

So yeah, respect to the guy, and I am looking forward to see whats next.

Photo of the proposed new carbon strut HERE

I like the strut idea. If you decide you want/have use of suspension it would be a very simple task to upgrade. Two buggies for the cost of 1&1/4? :cool2:

Now I want to see the front end.:Ange09:

great demo vid, I didn't see any if the listing I expected in the aft end suspicion.

I really like the suspension in my PL Monster buggy (thanks Dean!). As long as suspension is not independent for each back wheel (it is not on the Monster), there is no lean of the buggy with the pull of the kite. Power slides are great

I haven't seen the video (at work right now), but is there any reason the front end couldn't retain the suspension?

I'm in the process of replacing all the shocks on my Monster with air shocks (replacing the coil spring shocks that it came with). Expensive, but the ability to fine tune it to my weight should be worth it. I'm using new, but older model, rear mountain bike shocks.

Steve, would you mind sharing your source for the shocks...? :Ange09:

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Originally posted by silvereaglekiter great demo vid, I didn't see any if the listing I expected in the aft end suspicion.

Probably for two reasons..

1/ there was hardly any wind, so not fully powered up

2/ they have said the shocks were pumped up solid, so like comments that have already been mentioned, if they are that hard, there is no point in them being there really

The original front shocks were 6" eye to eye; I'm increasing that to 6.5" (it will raise my foot pegs a bit, a good thing). Got two old Rockshox SID dual air shocks from hippietech suspension. Not the most reliable store for getting work done on your shocks that you send him, but he mailed me the purchase of these two shocks in about a week.

The back shocks are a more standard 7.875" eye to eye. I'd look for something on ebay, then get another on ebay for the pair. I got a pair at cambriabike.com for cheap, but the deals there change all the time.

If you get old model shocks, you might want to get them checked out by your local bike shop. The first pair from cambria had a rattle inside. My lbs checked them out, the rattle wasn't series and easily fixed, but it turned out they were bone dry on the inside (no lub). $20 for the pair and they are in great condition now.