Big points for having the ballz to launch and fly in well powered conditions. It is something I still struggle with. Then I get the arc up and ( usually ) wonder what I was worried about.

Get in the habit of keeping it off to the side a bit when not setting up to ride. Auto zenith is a wonderful thing but keeping the kite overhead is what usually leads to unexpected lofting. Off to the side and you are more likely to get sent down wind/ absorb the gust.

If you fly with the bar out completely then you lose the opportunity to push out ( de-power ) if a gust hits. Play with the trim strap so the kite flies well with the bar in the middle.

Pulling the bar in a bit as you turn the kite is important for adding input to the kite.

I had the opposite problem starting out and kept overdoing my upwind. If you were going too fast you should have leaned back and turned upwind to slow down.

I ended up with " up on my toes , down on my butt " going on in my head when it clicked. Meaning, When the kite is up and not producing power I could go up on my toes. When the kite i headed down in a power stroke I get down on my butt and turn upwind .

The stronger I feel the kite pulling , the smaller I make my body / center of gravity. Far better to be down low pushing your feet out and hitting your butt than going over the top.

Each trip out will get better. ( with a few bad days thrown in )

SpecialK, sounds like you need to watch Carl's arc handling videos... I basically consider myself an arc ninja now because of how easily I launch and land my first arc. There is a trick to landing that I just recently started using that is just amazing in terms of smoothness and not fouling up the lines every time.

Trick is this: Let the kite autozenith, and disconnect your leash from the safety line in the chicken loop. Re-connect the leash to the metal ring on one of your steering lines. Make sure that it is the metal ring, and not the strap, and make sure it is the ring tied to the line on the kite-side, not the ring tied to the bar. Now let your depower trim all the way out to full power up the kite. Steer the kite over to the side of the window that you have the leash attached to the rear line, and take the donkey D out of your spreader bar. Now sheet the bar all the way in and unhook. This should stall the kite out, and it will pull firmly, but should not really cause you to scud. Steer the kite gently down as it stalls and let the wingtip touch the ground. As soon as the wingtip touches the ground, let go of the bar. The kite should smoothly flatten out on its back like it is ready to relaunch again immediately. Anchor off your leash to a ground stake or something solid. Now walk to the kite and unzip the deflate zipper and walk the downwind wingtip up to the other wingtip and put a weight on it. Now you are ready to go grab your bar and walk it back to the stake, because your lines are tangle free. Wrap the bar up just like you normally would, and fold the kite as others have said, folding the bar still connected into the kite and strap it and bag it.

Using this method, 5 minutes to set up and break down is reasonable. On a bad day it takes an extra 2 minutes because of excess flapping in shifty winds, but since I got my method down pat... It is consistently less than 10 minutes to unpack, launch, land, and pack up. It takes me longer to put my harness on than it does to launch the kite now, lol.

I am thinking that your Venom I has only got a fill zipper in the middle like my Phantom of that generation ?

They added Fill zippers to newer arcs at the wing tips. Having to push the air up to assure a good fill is just one more thing to slow you down.

Venom I is a real good economical place to get started on arcs but newer ones like Demoknight's are just that much easier to launch. Little things like the launch assist tabs, Zippers in the wingtips and better air retention all add up. Things like adjustable straps and VPC make for even better flight characteristics! When you are falling in love and hate with your Venom be aware that they have worked on most of the little things that will annoy you. Your ground handling + turning speed will improve if you like arcs enough to buy up to a more recent model! Money on the Venom was well spent. If you find arcs work for you then buying something newer will also be money well spent. You can always sell off a Venom !

> Play with the trim strap so the kite flies well with the bar in the middle.
This might seem like a dumb question, but what does "flies well" mean.
What kind of behaviors do you look for when you're evaluating/adjusting your trim
strap?

>Get in the habit of keeping it off to the side a bit when not setting up to ride.
Do you do this by continually steering it to keep it to the side? I don't know
if it was because of my lack of experience or tuning, but when left fully depowered, it
wasn't just staying put where I left it. I do think the winds were shifting around
a bit though.


>Play with the trim strap so the kite flies well with the bar in the middle.
Good advice. I hadn't thought about that, but it makes sense. One thing I
noticed is that the depower lines seemed like they had more play in them than
I'd expect. They were curved quite a bit. Is this normal or should they be
fairly straight/tensioned?


>I am thinking that your Venom I has only got a fill zipper in the middle like
my Phantom of that generation ?
Actually it does have fill zippers on the ends and a deflate in the center.
To help aid the process I bought this stupid little portable fan.
(http://amzn.to/1iTNnAG) It's not super powerful, but it did seem to help move
air in.

It also actually has the launch assist tabs, but I haven't really figured out
how to make them work for me. I've watched the videos on it, but They usually
just seem to fall out and not really help the way the videos show them helping!

It doesn't have the Adjustable straps or VPC stuff...

> When you are falling in love and hate with your Venom
I'm pretty sure it's all love. I'm not going to blame the kite for my own lack
of experience and technique. Tis the shoddy craftsman that blames his tools!

>If you find arcs work for you then buying something newer will also be money
well spent
Definatly.. I like what I've read about the charger 2's.. Will eventually be
looking at those for sure! I still want to get into the water at some point,
but it seems like Arc's can be good on the water as well as the land, even though
LEI's seem more popular..

>You can always sell off a Venom!
Not a chance! At least not for the foreseeable future!

Demoknight:
Thanks for the info on that. I think the video you were talking about was:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3MtHy-v3ZE

I will deff try this the next time I go out. One thing that isn't clear to me..
In the video, When he lets go of the bar, it makes sense to me that it would lay
down, but when he pulls the line in, I don't see the bar connected.. what's up
that.. I'd think the bar should still be on the end of the line? Am I missing
something?

>It is consistently less than 10 minutes to unpack, launch, land, and pack up.
> It takes me longer to put my harness on than it does to launch the kite now, lol.

Awesome! it's good to know there's hope. One hesitation I had with ARC's was that
there's lots of people talking about how much effort it takes to fly one vs
a fixed bridal.. I generally can find some time to go fly, but not extended
periods of time, so speed to launch/land is very important!

Thanks guys!
Aaron (is my name)

A bit of slack in the back lines is good with bar out. You probably had the trim strap in as short as possible, add the bar pushed out exaggerating the situation.

I launch almost all the way trimmed in and test the wind. If I am not overpowered I usually set it about 50 / 50 and leave it . Some folks like to open the strap almost fully open = fully powered. You want to be able to pull the bar in and have the kite stall out but not back down . If you have the trim open and pulling in the bar leaves you with slack on the back lines then you need to move your back lines up a knot or 2 at the bar.

In winds that are low like less than 10mph you need to go about things different. I keep the strap in to about 80% depowered to speed the kite up in the window. Pulling the bar in as I turn to add input then letting it out to speed the kite up through the window.

The kite should want to go to zenith since arcs auto zenith. It should sit there happy straight off your harness with no input at all. To keep it over at 10 or 2 should mean you need to correct it on occasion. Too easy to take advantage of auto zenith and then get caught in a gust when it is sitting there. I am guilty of it. If it won't sit at zenith wind is either too low or shifty. If it won't go to zenith your back lines are too short .

It is very hard to back an arc down in strong winds like shown in the video. On strong wind days you need to take it down your leash side at the edge of the window and then release. Often resulting in a roll or 2 as the kite flags and moves down wind.

Whooohoooo!

I chose to remain silent after the last attempt because I failed to even get it off the ground in the shifty winds. Rather than sound like the board whiner, I just kept my mouth shut and it paid off.

Today I tried again and had a freaking blast. The winds weren't particularly powerful but they were more than good enough to get going and move along nice and smooth. Occasionally it picked up a bit and I was able to really get the board rolling, maybe 15mph. It was an amazing experience. I still have so much to learn, but now that I know what it can feel like I'm hooked.

I know I had some problem finding the "right" place in the window to keep the kite, but the depower paid off more than few times when the gusts came through and I just powered it down rather than get blown over.

I mostly went back and forth heelside, and didn't really make it far upfield.. I guess that takes a bit more practice! The only other major problem was that for half the session the left depower line was half wrapped around the leader line. I didn't want to try to land and fix it so i flew it that way. Is this REALLY bad for it?

Thanks everyone! I can't wait to get out there again.

Bladerunner: Thanks again for the descriptions, they were really helpful. A big part of the success I had was due to your descriptions of where to put the trim strap!

A belated welcome!

Practice and power from the wind will make going upwind easier. Your comfort zone for how much is too much will expand as you get experience.

Wrapped lines can wear themselves, so best to untwist then ASAP... Assuming you set up right, you should just be as to unspin the bar...?

Gotta say, and it's a horse I like to flog, but don't get sucked into thinking "depower" takes power out of the kite -- cos it don't. What you've done is trimmed the kite, and with the bar you sheet in and out...
Lots of people think "oh I can still use my big kite today I'll just depower it a lot" and are the. surprised with a spanking... right kite size for the conditions -- safety, it's why we NEED all the kites we have dear wife honest... safety!

another happy customer.....keep it up in only gets better

Sounds like you are rolling.

Try and gain upwind while in your power stroke if wind is too light to " park and ride ". Your tracks will end up in a similar sine wave as your kite. Curving upwind where you stroked and a bit downwind as you coast between power strokes. If wind is strong enough to park the kite find a spot upwind and look at it . You tend to go where you look.

Kami is right on about depower being a confusing term. Think more like Front lines , back lines. Front lines cut through / spills the wind and speeds up the kite through the window. Making it sit farther ahead in the window .( Hand flat out the car window ) Back lines catch the wind stalling speed and speeding turns creating lift. With back lines in your kite will sit a bit back in the window catching more wind. ( Hand cupped / tipped back out the car window )

Play with your hand out the car window and pretend it is a kite. It teaches a LOT about depower.

When in motion with the kite at the edge pulling the bar in does add power ( lift ) . That is why it gets the name .

Some kites like Spleene are different. They are bridled to change the kites projected area as well as AOA . They are a bit closer to true depower ?

Ride on !

congrats specialk - i still remember that first time it all worked....and still get the same rush and excitment when i put a kite up today and climb on my board. keep it up and before long you will be boosting big.
Scott

Thanks everyone! Yeah it feels awesome.. Exactly what I was looking for, something that can bring me the feeling of snowboarding, even though I don't live anywhere near snow anymore. The best part is, kites seem to be useful when I do go near snow as well!

kami/bladerunner: Yeah that's true. I guess what I meant is that I was riding with the bar about half way in, so when a gust hit I could let the bar out and ride out the gust. I'm an engineer so I'm a stickler for the technical details as well!

So of course now that I've been bitten by the bug, the immediately question becomes what's the next kite for the quiver. I'm not ready to buy just yet unless the right opportunity were to come along, but I see theres a 19m venom for 300 right now for sale. I'm wondering if maybe that's a bit too big? (I clearly lack a lot of experience still) In my location, winds look like they drop off pretty substantially in the summer, so maybe it would be good for those purposes.. Or should I be looking at something like a 15m charger, 16m venom or mid size LEI.. That would be more along the lines of what bladerunner suggested initially.. Too many options..

The 19 Venom is not to big for you since you are slightly above average weight. You probably can't hold it down in 20 mph winds, but you don't need to fly it in those winds anyway. The 19 is a huge intimidating kite when you lay it out on the ground. It's like 33 feet long and stands maybe 18 inches off the ground when fully inflated. But when you launch it, you realize you are in total control and it isn't full of surprises. If you whip it across zenith and pull the bar in, ok you might get a surprise lift off the ground, but otherwise it stays where you put it and is like leaning back while attached to a wall if you have enough wind to power it up. I have pictures somewhere of Wexler when he was like 12-13 years old sitting in a beach chair flying a 19m Venom. It's that docile.

Something to think about when setting the trim on your kite, is when you start moving, your forward speed will put air pressure on the back lines, effectively making them seem tighter or shorter. This might not really be a factor at landboard speeds, but since you like to analyze and understand how things work, it's a factor to consider.

I'm not sure your big enough for the 19m- yeah you can hold it down and it would be a great kite in 10 mph winds for you IF you have a smooth rolling area where you can run and build apperant wind. I love my 19m but i'm a clydsdale (220+ group) and I only want to fly it when its blowing 18- 25mph in clean wind (i wont fly it at home in the lull gust- used to try but aint worth it) for huge floaty jumps- IT IS SLOW AS PIG. I prefer to fly my 13m venom or 15m charger2 in the lower wind range and higher- you can really whip it around to generate power in the lower winds and great for park and ride when higher. I would lean towards a 16 venom whole lot faster and more useful wind range for you- in the arc range- i think; not much knowledge on the others but am thinking about LEI in my future.

Congrats on the awesome session K! Giving me some inspiration to hop on that board and keep working at it.

I weigh about 160 and I love my 19 Venom. The bad thing is that there arn't too many days I can use it. If its hitting 20 mph+ I have to bring it down otherwise I might go up and just keep floating forever haha. In 12-18 mph its amazing, such grace and floaty easy going static jumps. I just moonwalked up and down a field one day. I have yet to board with it as my board skills are not that great and like flyguy said, its very slow, so every movement you do has to be perfect, cant waste any time/energy. I've had good sessions with it in the buggy though.

In perfect conditions I think its my favorite kite. Most useful kite has to be my 13m Venom2 though, just because there are not many days when I can't get a good session with it.

I'd really like to try out a 12/15m Charger2 though, that's my top wish list kite at the moment.

excellent points indeed.

v19 buggy locomotive no doubt! second choice to p18!

v16 water /landboard learn
Ch15 water/landboard
v13 water /landboard 15knots +
12/13m lei / closed cell depower foil

8/9m lei 30knots+

rider 190# +


old school PL arcs have profound bar pressure, giving solid handle feel , the new school arcs much less pressure and much snappier on the loop.

the speed3 12m would be in the center but not a great starter IMHO. indeed a choice unit with considerable range!

V16 is steerable power over the 19 and if not going into a buggy? then only if it fits your wind range.


all those choices ....and you'll be back for more !

It sounds like you will be looking for a lower wind kite next ?

I have no hands on with the 19m Venom but am pretty amazed at the low end I can get from my 18m Phantom. Once inflated !
I am a lightweight so I use it in winds about 7 - 11mph leaving lots of room for gusts. I think I fear the Phantom in gusts more than I might fear the Venom ? I could hold it down in more but enjoy my Synergy more so go to it.

There is still room for my SA under the Phantom. It works in about 4mph breezes .

People who have Venoms all seem to love the 13's and 16's. AS others have mention by 19m things get sloooow.

If you are going for a 3 kite quiver then that would be the only reason I would suggest the 19.

Had another sweet session last night! I initially launched with one line wrapped around another, but was able to quickly land, fix and launch again.

I didn't really do any jumps, but got some speed built up once or twice. Wind was around 15mph or so.. Super fun! Unfortunately the field I fly in is pretty bumpy with sun-hardened dry clay + rocks + grass. At the end of the session I popped a tire. Pretty bummed about that... So where do I go to buy new tubes? Suggestions on best/most economical place? I assume that I can patch the tube the same way you patch a bike tube. I might even get some "mr. tuffy" liners for the wheels to prevent this from happening again. Anyone have any experience with this?

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Something to think about when setting the trim on your kite, is when you start moving, your forward speed will put air pressure on the back lines, effectively making them seem tighter or shorter. This might not really be a factor at landboard speeds, but since you like to analyze and understand how things work, it's a factor to consider.

That is pretty interesting to think about. When I'm flying, my nerd brain is still very much thinking about fluid dynamics around the kite. I guess it's something hard to turn off. Well at least until you accidentally drop it too far into the "power zone" and take off like a bullet!

Quote: Originally posted by flyguy0101

I prefer to fly my 13m venom or 15m charger2 in the lower wind range and higher- you can really whip it around to generate power in the lower winds and great for park and ride when higher. I would lean towards a 16 venom whole lot faster and more useful wind range for you- in the arc range- i think; not much knowledge on the others but am thinking about LEI in my future.

It seems like when applying the general advice I'm getting here, I'll steer away from the 19 for now. I'm pretty interested in the 16 venom or the 15 charger2 just like you. Im curious why you sold your 16 v2 for the charger2. What differences do you notice? If you could do it again, would you make the same moves? Are newer kites 3x+ better to justify the 3x+ price? Just curios/doing my research!

Quote: Originally posted by OmniSmurfZ

Congrats on the awesome session K! Giving me some inspiration to hop on that board and keep working at it. I have yet to board with it as my board skills are not that great In perfect conditions I think its my favorite kite.

Thanks man! Yeah I think my board skills are pretty good because I've spent so much time on a snowboard.. If I might make a suggestion, if you are like me and can't go snowboarding, consider getting a regular skateboard and kicking around. Find a little hill you can cruise down. The feeling's pretty similar, its all about leaning the right amount and controlling your center of gravity. It's harder to do on a skateboard (I don't have much experience with cruisers, so it might be easier with them) but when you really get a nice carve in, it feels amazing. I am ultimately interested in doing some big jumps, but I think holding off on the 19 right now seems like the right path. One thing I know for sure... I need to actively fight the urge to buy all the kites!

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

V16 is steerable power over the 19 and if not going into a buggy? then only if it fits your wind range.

Your weight and kite list is probably pretty similar to where I'm going. ThanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for that! Super helpful!

Maybe I'm being dense, but what did you mean by if not in a buggy, then only if it fits your wind range? Sounds like you think its a bit too much power for a landboard?

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

It sounds like you will be looking for a lower wind kite next ? People who have Venoms all seem to love the 13's and 16's. If you are going for a 3 kite quiver then that would be the only reason I would suggest the 19.

Yeah, deff a lower wind kite next. This 13 is great, but the winds like this aren't gonna last for too long.
It seems like the 16 is my next destination, the advice Im getting here is that the 19 is sweet, but yeah slow. I think I'd rather work with the 16!


So I guess my current goals are to get some tube patches, and wait to see where everyone recommends getting tubes and eventually wheels for the board. The wind looks like it's gonna be pretty great here this week, so I want to get it back up and running ASAP!

Thanks again for all the advice everyone, and if you know someone with a 16m venom in good condition, please let me know!

for land board/water the 19 is just a bit slow, in heavier wind for a big guy it would workout.

and for buggy in light wind it certainly is effective for sure.

v16 is about the same as 14m lei and the right speed of turns for learning hands

Quote: Originally posted by flyguy0101

I prefer to fly my 13m venom or 15m charger2 in the lower wind range and higher- you can really whip it around to generate power in the lower winds and great for park and ride when higher. I would lean towards a 16 venom whole lot faster and more useful wind range for you- in the arc range- i think; not much knowledge on the others but am thinking about LEI in my future.

"QUOTE FROM SPECIAL K"It seems like when applying the general advice I'm getting here, I'll steer away from the 19 for now. I'm pretty interested in the 16 venom or the 15 charger2 just like you. Im curious why you sold your 16 v2 for the charger2. What differences do you notice? If you could do it again, would you make the same moves? Are newer kites 3x+ better to justify the 3x+ price? Just curios/doing my research! "QUOTE"

i bought the 15 charger 2 to replace one of my 13m venoms- based on projected area the 15 charger 2 is about the same size as a 13m venom- differences are easier launch, faster turning, flies in less wind, crazy amount of lift but not as much surface area so landings can be harder without proper redirecting. I got rid of my 16 venom because i would just fly the 13 in lighter winds and the 19 in big float winds
scott

Took apart my wheels tonight. 4+ thorns in most of the tires/tubes.

I'm ordered 4 new tubes and some MR Tuffy Tube liners and will cut them down to size. Quite a bummer. Maybe I should avoid that field in the future, but it's both big and close to me!

Add in slime to stop the trouble with the thorns. I had to put it in all our bike tires along with the protectors when we moved to CA. We were getting flats every ride.

Great point! I ordered some this morning. I never used slime in BMX bikes I used to ridebecause usually those would be massive blowouts from hitting a curb. Slime should work great for thorns, but just ends up as a giant green mess when you have a massive pinch hole (or two)!

No wind / Crappy wind / Rain. Please come back, wind!

the last time I went to WBB I progressed so much on the board. I think it really helps being around others that are more experienced. When I was at the event I just started experimenting with different ways of riding like heelside since I primarily ride toe side because I find it much easier and it looks really cool too(Just ask Cheesy). I also learned to ride toe side and heelside in both directions which I believe is key when you want to progress. It is mainly getting used to the feeling of riding in reverse. Once I got used to it, I strarted doing power slides, 180s and slide transitions.

PKF is a great community of nice people, if you are having trouble learning something, they will help you understand how to do something

Had a few more short sessions! Not enough wind to really have a good time though.. Im starting to really want something bigger..

Currently I'm thinking more about a foil. I'm reading really good things about the HQ Montana... have any of you landboarders out there been out on one? I know I was talking about going LEI before, but realistically it's gonna be a year or two before I can really do that due to life constraints..

I know that I'm going to be land boarding on some pretty rough terrains in some pretty lightish winds.. and I really would like to be able to do some nice jumps too (ive done some small ones on my venom 13.. and I want more..)

I'm thinking the 14m Montana might be the ticket. It looks like the montana 7 got some excellent reviews, but haven't seen much about the 8.. I don't care about flying the newest and greatest but I was curious if anyone has any experience with either the 7 or 8 Montana on a landboard? People say its a pretty good jumping kite, but they always talk about it on the snow... I know it's no speed3/4, but i can't see myself very easily justifying the kinds of prices they demand at this stage in my developing addiction

SpecialK, IMHO I thought the Montana VI was perfect, and then the VII came with reduced bridles and more stability. The Montana VIII is a better kite than the previous 2 models but you would be thrilled with a VI or VII.

What attributes make it a "better" kite?

The Montana VIII is even more stable than the previous model (which was very good). But at the same time it is faster and has more depower it seems.

The attributes I look for in a kite are slightly different than what others look for. I don't use the lift these kites offer, and depend on the kite to keep pointed in the direction I'm going.

Did a short fly this morning.. and it was.. not as successful as I hoped!

Winds are pretty heavy today.. 20's gusting into the 30's.. I got the kite up rather easily and kept it flying. Mostly it flew straight overhead and while I could get it to move back and forth, I had troubles getting it to sit back enough into the window to get rolling...

Im not too sure if this is because it was just too windy for the 13 or inexperience or both.. (probably both)...

I also had a few overflies (probably from the gusts?) .. One time it overflew and then started floating back down.. i pulled the safety because it looked like it was going to open up directly downwind in the powerzone.. that would have been a trainwreck... I tried playing with the trim strap to correct this.. Starting with it all the way in (full depower) and then moving it out to half way.. neither seemed to help that much...

I ended up just packing up.. Not worth hurting myself in winds that I can't comfortably work!

So yeah.. I still have a lot to learn!

HMM those should have been pretty sweet winds ?

Are you saying that you didn't seem to have enough input off of the bar to steer the kite and dip it into the power zone ?

Were your back lines still too slack ? Sounds like it to me ? In those winds pulling in the bar should have made a noticeable difference ? I suspect letting the strap out more would have helped ? If I am correct you can shorten the back lines at the leaders on the bar.

Are you sending the kite off correct ?

If you want to go right. Point your board downwind to the right. Point more downwind with low winds. Just slightly downwind in strong winds. From Zenith rock the kite a bit to the left then turn it to the right and down into the power zone. In strong winds you won't have to make very big motions at all + the kite will get into " park and ride " status sooner. In light winds you need to dive the kite harder + pump the kite in a sine wave to gain speed = power.

The fact you are comfortable enough to give it a go in those winds + smart enough to back off impresses me !