Sorry for hijacking the thread guys but I found this review awesome!

Quote:

I love the arcs for gust absorption and general ease of use, but our wind directions are stupid-variable here, so the arc isn't a viable option if you don't want early grey hairs.

Proletariat can you elaborate on this comment about arcs please?

Reason I ask is I am a beginner landboarder with a Venom 13m and a Synergy 15m but they have scared me and I am looking for something smaller and more manageable. But bigger than my 3m Twister I used for getting started. I was Considering something like 8m Apex but a reply to my other post here got me researching the Flysurfer Peak as something that might work for me.

I guess I would be looking at the 6m Peak for my weight 175 lbs and skill level beginner. Winds 10mph but inland and pretty variable.

I got arcs because of what folk said about their ability to handle inland and gusty conditions but I've really struggled with my arcs. Is the Peak likely to be a better option for me?

Arcs are consummate gust handlers. But as a beginner there is a pretty substantial learning curve to fly them effectively and with confidence. One you get a handle on flying them they are extremely nice kites with versatility to match.

The Peak on the other hand is very user friendly and easy to fly compared to Arcs. And set up and break down is much easier. Gust handling is near arc-like and depower is very close as well.

Whoever lead you to arcs were correct in regards to the handling of dirty winds and flight quality. But if you are unfamiliar with some of the little things that make flying arcs a bit easier, they can be a lesson in frustration.

Thanks for that Feyd! I think my problem with arcs is certainly the learning curve and also a major confidence issue, especially now having sustained an injury. Right now I don't even want to get them out the bag! I'm certainly unfamiliar with any of the little things that make flying arcs easier, though I think I've finally got self-launching dialled.

The Peak is looking like a very likely purchase for me. Am I right in thinking the 6m would be my best option given my skill level? I read that the 9m can pull like a 14-15m foil which sounds way too much.

Can a comparison be made between the 6m Peak and something like an 8m HQ Apex (which is what I was looking at before I stumbled across the Peak)? In terms of user friendliness, suitability for beginner landboarder, handling of variable winds...?

Robinsonpr- Arcs have a very steep starting learning curve then get very easy, kind of like snowboarding!

HAHAH that's actually a very good comparison EW.

As it happens Molly and I were discussing this last night. There was a session we had last winter with another local rider on one of the bigger lakes in the region doing a tour in some fairly stout winds. Molly hadn't at that time logged much time on the Peak and really I hadn't either but I used the trip as a chance to feel it out some more. Molly @ 130-140lbs (posting my wife's weight on the interwebs uh oh) opted to take the 5m Apex 4. Me @ 200-210lbs on the 6m Peak and our friend at about 160-170 lbs on the 8m FS Psycho 4.

We rode a few hours and the winds picked up a bit from when we started. Molly had her 5m half trimmed and was working pretty hard, our friend was fully trimmed on the 8m P4 with it nearly directly overhead most of the time and I was happy as can be and not even close to overpow'd unless I sheeted in fully. All of us are experienced snowkiters. I could see clearly that the amount of power/depower was considerable compared to the other kites out there.

The 6m Peak will power you more than the Apex 8m but will depower even more than a 5m Apex and turn better than the Apex in the depowered state. Molly said it best last night. "The Peak makes some traditional depowers obsolete as depowers made fixed bridles obsolete." HEHEHE The fixed bridle buggy guys may take issue with that but keep in mind we're talking snowkite here. :D

At the price and performance of the peak I'm not sure why anyone would look at traditional open cell (except for a good deal used)? Is there any advantages at all?

This has been a common question with our beginner students. We teach on Apex 4's primarily and similar kites because they have traits that are common to many different brands and designs of open cell foils. But often after a they complete their lessons they try one of our Peak demos and immediately fall recognize how easy they are to fly and manage and they ask the very same question, why would I fly a more traditional design? Especially given the benefits in light of the cost?

The Peak is awesome for sure for all the reasons we've covered and more. For 90% of what your average user is going to want it's really a great choice and one that's hard to beat. But the flight quality is different than what the dual skin equivalents can offer. It is a dyed in the wool snowkite touring machine IMO and as such will never (in it's current design) provide some users with the performance needed to do certain things. Take jumping for example. Sure, the Peak jumps and jumps pretty well for a kite with minimal lift but it's never going to jump like A Ozone Summit or HQ Montana 8. Advanced riders will be able to squeeze more performance out of the Peak than the average user but it wouldn't be as ideal as other more high performance based designs.

Would I course race on a Peak against the Speed 4 or Chrono? No. That would be terrible, like racing my Chargers against Elfs it wouldn't even be close. Would I race long distance in nasty variable conditions on a Peak against the same? Hell yes. Because that's where it's strengths lie.

The Peak does what it does very well. Other kites we had in demo like the Matrixx, Summit and Access last year did what they did very well also. The 2014 Access was nearly as good as the Peak in many of the same ways but it fell short in regards to the amount of depow, pack ability, set up and break down speed. It was close but not quite. The quality of flight of the Access is better, especially with the lack of depow flutter and turn rate was a bit better. It handles gust amazingly well too and the 2015 will be even closer in performance with the new safety but it can't compete on price.

Really it comes down to what the buyer is attracted to. The Peak is a great kite and for the money you can't beat it. I think the Peak has more potential of an impact on beginner new kite sales and older used kites than current inline or even a year old but new kite sales. If I'm looking for the performance of a Charger 2 I'm not going to find in by saving $$$ on a Peak.


We sold a Frenzy UL last season. The guy was torn between it and the 9m Peak. He settled on the Frenzy because he wanted high performance more than seemingly unlimited depow. He got a great kite, light weight so added low wind capability and easy to pack and carry. It's really a best of both worlds option.

The question we really have to ask is what if they start producing hi performance hi AR versions. Peter Lynn (himself) had mentioned seeing a hi AR single skin in one of his newsletters. He seemed pretty impressed by what he saw and nobody is letting on who made the thing. Kites are expensive. If there could be a more affordable single skin kite out there that can do what the current premium model dual skins can due for less I think it will open up kiting to more people. I think the trend of producing Dr./Lawyer kites is not sustainable or good for the long run.

There's still a place for Dual skin open cells and closed cells especially in snowkiting. But the Peak design is really a great amount of performance and versatility for the money.

Feyd - the comments about the Peak powering more than an Apex 8m and also depower more than a 5m Apex have really tipped the scales for me, I'm almost ready to pull the pin on the credit card!

The dealer I've been talking to is pushing the Ozone Access 8m as the ideal "first" depower kite for my scenario. Not sure if that's because it's the best choice though, or if it's because they want to get rid of the Access's they have in stock...I noticed there is a 2015 Access now and the one he's trying to sell me is a 2013. They have got the Access 2013 discounted at £700 instead of £850, but that's STILL more expensive than the Peak which is £675.

They say the Access is hands down better than the HQ Apex and the PL Lynx, especially in ground handling and safety. But they are pretty quiet about the Peak, not sure if that's because they don't know much about it or because they don't make as much on it!

The Peak is beginning to sound like a no-brainer to me at this stage, I'm always wary of dealers especially when it comes to unloading last season's gear.

[Edit I just read your last reply which mentions the Access also! Given they are trying to sell me a 2013 Access, is the Peak the better option in your opinion?]

The advice you get here is better than anywhere. Good luck!

Yeah this forum is awesome!

Anyone ever experienced this issue with the Peak?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6ALx-DbSc

What ARE those stiffner things in the leading edge? Bra cup underwires? Are they metal? Does that affect pack down, have you got to be really careful to not squash or bend them??

That would be a potential downside to the Peak or any other kite with leading edge stiffeners vs. a traditional open cell. If the kite gets dragged leading edge down eventually there's going to be wear on the leading edge where the stringers are stitched in, essentially causing a stress riser in regards to fabric wear. We actually put some extra protection in the form of ripstop repair tape on the areas that we thought might be an issue on our demos to avoid what was shown in the video. I haven't seen wear quite that bad from grass or snow. Pavement will burn it quick though.

I'm told the stringers are made of monofilament, essentially fishing line. Very resilient and flexible. Ozone has multiple layers on the stringers of the Chrono, probably to avoid exactly this sort of damage.

This doesn't happen to traditional open cells but in general I try not to let my kite drag leading edge down if I can help it. :D

I'm almost set to buy the Peak 6m :D

One other thing I wanted to ask...is the trekking backpack they advertise with it any good? I figure I'd have to get a rucksack of some sort for it anyway as it only comes with a stuff sack, right? And my harness (an old Mystic Warrior waist/seat harness) is pretty bulky to be lugging about just for a session cruising (NOT jumping!) about on a landboard.

Also in the field I use some guys have had gear stolen so I prefer to keep everything on me.

Looks like a pretty neat idea, IF it's functional. Think it's worth the $$$?

Thanks,
Paul

If you're thinking of changing harnesses and the PeaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s backpack harness isn't an option, I'd recommend the Peter Lynn Divine harness. It's a seat harness, fairly light weight and super comfortable. Not big and bulky at all.

I agree that the Divine is a comfortable harness as harness's go but you'll need to find one with a non-buggy spreader bar.

The Peak pack is a nice option for light duty snowkite/power kiting but it's not really intended to do more than allow you to hook in for low key riding or ascending and giving you a place to store your kites while riding or just in general.

We've sold a few packs but most of our customers opt for the Ozone SB if comfort and light weight are the goal in addition to being a harness that can handle some pretty substantial loading and still have lots of support. AND YOU CAN WEAR ANY PACK YOU WANT WITH IT. So you aren't limited by the size of the Peak Pack. Your Mystic is pretty bulky to shoe horn into the Peak Pack. The Ozone dang near fits into a large shoe box.

The 6m will fit into any pack that the bar and lines will fit into. I often carry our 6m demo in a Marmot hydration pack. Follow the link below and watch the video to see the size of the pack.

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/flysurfer-peak-click.html

With careful packing you can squeeze the Peaks into some damn small spots :D.

I wish this was an easier decision.... Spoke to a distributor that does Flysurfer and Ozone and they were also pushing me towards the Access, said the Peak was less versatile, less user friendly and couldn't be used in higher winds.

They said the Peak was an awesome kite, but just suited to certain application, such as lighter winds. They also said the depower on the Peak isn't as effective as a traditional foil because there's no air pressure inside to keep the shape.

I'm a right Mr Confused now! :o

That's funny.... all I've heard about the Peak is that it is very "bow/SLE like" in terms of its depower, which modern traditional foils just can't match. And I've just sort of ignorantly assumed that the high level of depower had something to do with the fact that it didn't need to maintain that internal pressure.:puzzled:

Quote:

"The Peak makes some traditional depowers obsolete as depowers made fixed bridles obsolete." HEHEHE The fixed bridle buggy guys may take issue with that but keep in mind we're talking snowkite here. :D

Here's a video of a peter lynn guy making fb on snow look awesome. Chris, you might want to rethink your opinion of fb on snow :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNPGqdT25bw

Ssayre, clearly the guy knows how to ride. You can tell simply by his body positioning. And he knows how to work that Vapor. But look at where they're riding, he's playing somewhere that has smooth consistent winds and he's not venturing far from the camera. He's not 30 miles out from the launch and in winds gusting from 10kt to 22kts. I suspect that he wouldn't be riding like that in our local spots here.

I'm not a FB hater guys. (neither is Molly BTW) Pound for pound, FB is the biggest bang for the buck power wise and there's some value there for the rider that is in a place where distance and gust factor aren't an issue. I love that direct feel and sense of raw power. And on handles, oh man the things you can do when a kite is on handles! For years I considered getting a 16m Vapor for my light wind kite but never did because it would be impractical given are usual wind conditions, even in light wind.

The reality is you can fly any kite in any environment. You can fly a Vapor on water if you want. Heck as we know back in the day water riders rode FB kites but they adopted depower pretty fast when it became available and they don't have nearly the gust factor that inland riders have. Track down some threads in the forums from around 2000-2002 and you'll see they had the same discussion that we are having now.

Which is why, from a rider that gave up on FB almost 11yrs ago I'm perplexed that so few riders in the buggy world have adopted depows or are just now starting to experiment with them. But I'm not a buggy driver, I have no experience in it and there may be something I'm not aware of. But I am a snowkiter and I will say that sure, I could ride fixed bridles here but it wouldn't be fun and in some situations it could be dangerous.

Depower kites like the Peter Lynn Phantom 2, The Flysurfer Peak, Ozone Access and others are simply much more practical when you have a 50-100% gust factor. Even more so when you have a high gust frequency as well. This said, not all depowers share this versatility. The Flysurfer Speed used to be such a kite. On gusty days some of the most experienced riders would ride the thing but at the end of the day would complain about how beat up they got in the gusts. Meanwhile someone on a Synergy would have hardly noticed the gust factor.

The new Speeds, light years away from that now.

Either way, the boosts that guy is getting on the Vapor look sweet and smooth.

But back to Robinsonpr's dilemma.

"Spoke to a distributor that does Flysurfer and Ozone and they were also pushing me towards the Access, said the Peak was less versatile, less user friendly and couldn't be used in higher winds.

They said the Peak was an awesome kite, but just suited to certain application, such as lighter winds. They also said the depower on the Peak isn't as effective as a traditional foil because there's no air pressure inside to keep the shape."

My question at this point would be how much actually riding time do any of these people have on the kites we're comparing here? One of the biggest key elements of the PeaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s design philosophy is ease of use. Our beginner students love the things! Fear is probably the biggest limiter to a rider's progression and the Peak takes a lot of fear out of the equation which frees up our students to focus on the act of riding and learning and less on the fear. To be able to immediately dump power on the fly without the need for mechanical trim is a huge benefit. There are a lot of riders out there that were perpetual intermediates that were given the confidence to ride in winds beyond their comfort zone and moved to the next level by simply being put on the Peak.

High winds. My experience, watch the beginning segment of this video.

http://youtu.be/ziI6hs1co48

There are some pics of the Peak on our site that I took the first time I took the 6m in high winds. We often fly kites beyond the manufacture's wind ranges because on ice we can. Bear in mind I'm an experienced rider but I was in winds gusting to 45kts and was comfortable enough on the thing to set it at the edge of the window and take some pics with my cell phone. Hands off the bar. There isn't another kite in our inventory that I could have or would have done that with. That day was the day I was sold on the potential of this design.

Furthermore, here's Flysurfer's statement direct from their website. "The PEAK is super easy to handle even in extreme low wind conditions allowing you to get going earlier. However the PEAK is also easy to control in strong winds due to the direct and effective depower." And this "Super simple and easy handling makes it ideal for children or beginners." I don't generally buy into the manufacture's copy on their product, I like to find out for myself, but the Peak has proven to be everything they described.

And saying the depower isn't as effective due to the lack of cells? What is going to dump power better a flag or a rigid wing? As I've stated before, after the first time I rode a SLE inflatable I felt that the depower available on foils, as good as it is on some, isn't nearly what the SLE has to offer. In my discipline of snowkite that kind of depower would be a HUGE asset. Now we have the Peak and this kite has the potential to push my game up a notch or two. If there were a higher AR version it would be a relatively easy ticket to the 80mph+ range.

Really, the Peak or the Access, you can't go wrong with either as they are both great kites in their own right. But be wary of opinions based on very limited flight time on a given kite.

Yeah, I was kidding, I know race kites aren't known for their gust munching ability. For my similar gusty conditions, I don't plan on using my fb foils for traction any longer (unless I have a very clean wind day). A good pilot can make any kite work, but the other good offerings of depower and ns2 make it so much easier for the casual user IMO.

Robinsonpr, I would listen to Feyd if I were you. Also, pretty much everyone else that has tried them have echoed his findings.

This is a phenomenal thread Feyd,... If I could afford one, I'd be all over a 9m... I am loving my 12.5m M5 right now though.

Feyd, Ssayre, and everyone else for that matter, thank you all for you excellent and valued feedback.

I'm happy to say my mind made is made up now and am going to order the Peak 6m, it looks to fit the bill for me perfectly, and has the added bonus of small size and weight so I can easily take it on vacation, weekends away etc.

Regarding the colour of it, I'm a man that's quite comfortable with pink but I'm glad they ran out of cloth and have changed the colour of it to neon orange now

Now just need to figure out how to sneak it into the house past the wife!!!

Thanks again guys, fantastic forum and community you have going here!

There are a lot of kite forums out there but I have to say PKF is really the best in regards to the people who use it. The knowledge base is huge as is the respect base which seems to be lacking in some other forums.

Glad you made a decision robinsonpr, you won't be disappointed.

Just out of curiosity, the Peak you're getting, it's pink?

I JUST this second placed the order! Hovered with my finger on the "pay now" button for about 5 minutes, then just closed my eyes and pressed it.

I think (hope) I'm getting orange!!

It should be orange. Pink ran out in the first couple weeks of the kite's intro to market. Personally I like the pink, looks stunner in the sky. But Orange is awesome too.

Congrats and let us know how it goes!

Will do, I might even attempt a review

Congrats robinsonpr! Now, if only I can gather up the money to get one.

Just met guy who got 9m from you when kiteboarding in local spot here in NJ ,,,, Got his contact info so I can try this Peak phenomenon when we get some snow on ground ...

Was it Eric?

I'd be psyched to hear your thoughts on it Konrad when you get the chance. :D

There are a couple of things that I've found that make this kite buggy friendly.
First, all of the reviews are accurate I can't add much to the well written reviews on this forum. It flies as stated.
No one has mentioned the short bar and easy reach to full depower. The short bar works very well in the buggy also the sheeting distance is
very comfortable while seated. The total depower that can be obtained allows you to pick your way through the pesky beach traffic of kids, dogs,
vacant minded beachgoers and even the occasional alligator. The light wind capabilities mean less worry about dropping the kite and lines on some
citizen in a crowded situation. I find that it turns as quickly as my 6.9m reactor in similar wind. Reverse launch is outstanding.
Peak 6m.