I have an email out to John at Powerzone. Going to see if he want's to take a crack at it. I have this weekend off so I'm sure I'll be tempted to try some more tweaking. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Seeing the Peak2 12m wing tip collapse is exactly what I had on my own build when I put de-power on to my 12m. If I fly it as a fb there is no collapse at all, once on de-power again I needed much more wind (which I expected) and cleaner wind, I sorted mine with a bridle tweak and limiting the lower AoA side of the de-power. In addition I now also use a good old NPW trick of a Z-bridle hybrid which prevents the brakes fully releasing at the kite end and pretty much eliminates the "floppy bunny ear" syndrome. Due to losing the real low wind end I now have the ability to switch between bar / de-power to fb on handles giving me low end with no issues.

BigE123 - good to know this might be a similar situation. Totally irritating but hopefully solvable without losing real low end though because this is the only reason/use I have for this kite.....

Chedd - I sent you a U2U with my email address - I'll send you a reply including my entire chain with FlySurfer along with the chime ins of various techs at Fly.

Jeff

This is what John from PowerZone had to say:

"Sure thing, I can tune er up for ya. One last thing you can try on your own (if you want) is to adjust B and C proportionally not separate measurements. So if you make Cmain 2cm shorter than Amain…. Adjust Bmain to half of the distance or 1cm. see if that improves the flight first then we can discuss a tune up"

Wow, were talking some pretty small tweaks here. I shortened my B's by one inch!! No wonder it flew like S**t after that big of an adjustment. I'll continue to play with the bridle in the meantime but alot of this is out of my scope of knowledge. I'm just learning as I go along...:duh:

Hey Cheddarhead and all,

So Proletariat and I both surmised a while back that both our Peak2 12's could totally benefit from a bit more length on the front lines....basically we were both always flying with the centers fully extended and flying way deep in the bar...and the backs still seemed long to us.

We both also figured that with some more length on the centers the kite would be more "loaded" all the time with easier ability to flare the backs/and backstall the kite.

I bought some universal pigtails and put one on each front today. I flew the kite first without them and was swearing at the wingtip crap the entire time. Landed it - put the couple extra inches on the fronts and holy crap what an improvement. 1) It instantly solved all my remaining tip issues. 2) turned quicker since the backlines could be made effectively much shorter 3) actually allowed me to use the trim to fine tune the bar to my preference-still was barely backstalling which makes me think I could use another inch/

I realize that this will remove some of the top of the wind range but I absolutely don't care about that-in stronger winds I'm going with my 9 LEI anyway.

To anyone dealing with Peak2 issues - might want to try pigtails on the fronts!!

I used these...

http://www.adventurekiteboarding.com/usa-made-universal-pigt...


Jeff

I just wanted to let you all know that I have the 9M Peak 2 and have the same issue with it. I haven't tried any of the tuning tips from this thread yet, but I'll keep you posted. Also planning on placing some pigtails on the front lines.

Just dropped mine off at FedEx, it's heading to PowerZone for a tune. I'll keep you guys updated when I get it back. Fingers crossed.

Interesting. I spoke to Rheinart about the tuning tip from Powerzone. Was news to him. Doesn't mean that it won't work, just that he hasn't recommended it or needed it. As we've seen with Peter Lynns sometimes the users come up with solutions faster than the designers.

So given this sudden interest in adding pigtails to the PK2 and seeing the result one could argue that the PK2, if flown in heavy depow, is inherently unstable in most cases especially if flown in unstable winds. And as we were doing with the PK1, the addition of pigtails reduces some of the flutter and instability and the cost of some of the depower.

On the Peak one there was a considerable increase in low end power with what many would consider acceptable loss of depow. I haven't had a need to add pigtails to the PK2 and for the kites that seem problematic that I've altered the tuning tips have been effective. But have those of you who have added pigtails noticed a considerable power increase like is seen on the PK1? Or are we dealing with a situation where FS has designed so deep into the depower range that it is too much depower and the result is instability when flown in depower?

The 9m HWK demo that Cheddar flew at Mille Lacs was tuned by myself about 2cm. It wasn't unstable unless the winds were really shifty but I opted to see if it would be better and it seemed to be. The winds all Mille Lacs however are damn smooth compared to most places I fly. I made some small alterations to our 4m which I'm using for street riding. And I set up the bar for a little Xtra backstall, much like adding pigtails to the front lines. Here's a link to the video of the static flight test. Small park, surrounded by lots of windshadows and rotor producers. Winds shifting from W/NW to E/NE (as you can see by the flag behind me). Kite seems to be behaving quite well. But I'll let you judge.

https://youtu.be/NvnPUbyPMuo

I added the pigtails because to me my kite was indeed out of the bag beyond just excessively depowed. No wind ever was I remotely pulling any sort of trim. Sort of rationalized that overly slack back lines and thus complete lack of tension in the wingtips at almost all times was causing a lot of my tip collapsing issues and frankly really poor performance.

Even deep into bar the backs had more then what is reasonable slack. (would have to reach WAY up the backs to get any sort of tension to make an impact to flight characteristics)

So I figured being quasi-desperate quasi curious I through on the pigtails and WHAMO. Does have WAY more power at the expense of surely some top of the wind range but it can still flap like crazy when sheeting out in gusts with little to no pull (I've flown in high teens low 20's gusts no prob so far). This is with pulling the trim maybe 1/3. The kite flies to me anyway as it actually should right now. I added several inches via the pigtails I originally posted.

If it ever dries out here I'll post a follow up vid. Another benefit is that the kite turns and loops much quicker.

I agree with your theory and it makes sense. Was just curious.

So it looks like a gamble out of the bag new, it may or may not have the wingtip collapsing issue? Has anyone had one new (pk2) that didnt have this issue? I "might" be entertaining the idea of a 6m.

Quote: Originally posted by FrontRangeJeff

Hey Cheddarhead and all, So Proletariat and I both surmised a while back that both our Peak2 12's could totally benefit from a bit more length on the front lines....basically we were both always flying with the centers fully extended and flying way deep in the bar...and the backs still seemed long to us. We both also figured that with some more length on the centers the kite would be more "loaded" all the time with easier ability to flare the backs/and backstall the kite. I bought some universal pigtails and put one on each front today. I flew the kite first without them and was swearing at the wingtip crap the entire time. Landed it - put the couple extra inches on the fronts and holy crap what an improvement. 1) It instantly solved all my remaining tip issues. 2) turned quicker since the backlines could be made effectively much shorter 3) actually allowed me to use the trim to fine tune the bar to my preference-still was barely backstalling which makes me think I could use another inch/ I realize that this will remove some of the top of the wind range but I absolutely don't care about that-in stronger winds I'm going with my 9 LEI anyway. To anyone dealing with Peak2 issues - might want to try pigtails on the fronts!! I used these... http://www.adventurekiteboarding.com/usa-made-universal-pigt... Jeff

good stuff! way to own it ! not just knowlegde, understanding what you know!, gotta love that!

Might I suggest adjusting the leader under the floats as opposed to the hassle of making or added expense of purchasing pigtails. Those adjustment knots aren't stitched. You can move them about and really fine tune these things.

Would be a great option Feyd!

For me I added almost 5" to the fronts....so would just need to find something to do with the excess under the floats.

I wanted universal pigs anyway so I can more easily swap my bars to kites (LEIs) so nothing lost for me but your certainly right

John from Powerzone finally had a chance to fly and adjust my Peak. He tinkered with it for a couple hrs but he said he couldn't get all the tip tucking out of it despite all the adjustments he made. He said there would be no charge for tuning simply because he couldn't accomplish what he wanted with the kite. What a nice guy!!! It's getting shipped back to me as I type this. According to what I'm hearing I'll add a little length to the front lines and see if that might get rid of the remaining tuck altogether. It's been a while since I've seen my peak, I miss it already

Love this thread. I've got some pig tails and will experiment on my 12m. It has had few issues with tip tuck, but
when it happens it is annoying. I'm not too concerned about the high end either. Way before the 12 becomes overpowered, the 6m is pulling like champ.

The tuning tips are great, keep "em coming!

Another unorthodox approach to test how balancing the brakes and power lines affects flight characteristics is to fly it on handles. I've learned a lot more about what the kite can do or won't do by using handles. I've been using 5 meter lines and 20 meter lines and I've recently been hooking in with a strop. It makes things much more interesting and simple in my opinion. I don't have a safety but I haven't needed one in the 10-20 mph zone. I'm still experimenting, but I do notice my tips will collapse if I depower it past what it normally depowers on the bar. Eliminating the bar simplifies testing its raw capabilities without the limitations of the bar. Brings all back to basics I think I might even prefer handles over bar at this point. Still early though.

Edit: I leave my lines on the bar and use another set with handles so it is easy to switch.

Chedderhead - at least it sounds like John got out a decent amount hopefully. And totally right - super nice to spend all the effort! That is awesome.

I can say that I've had a few more days with mine and I officially LOVE the outcome of putting my pigtails on the fronts. Much more low end and I'm no longer encountering any of the more then annoying tip issues. I was waiting to stamp mine as "fixed" until I had a few more sessions. I'm completely with Ted - anything near approaching upper limit of the 12 anyway and I'm on a different kite so I'm good with it.

ssayre - I wouldn't have thought of that at all. Although I really only fly hooked in on a harness and wouldn't want the variation from my water setups but I'd imagine that would be a great way to widen the ratios possible over a bar.

GREAT THREAD! My 12m P2 has become my favorite buggy engine. I get less tip tuck then I used to (maybe improved piloting skill?). I also moved the knots up one spot under the floaters which may also have helped. I just ordered a pigtail set from Chris at Hardwater (I got my kite from him) and am excited to try the center line lengthening described here.

Like others, I'm not concerned if this robs a little top wind range. This is my LOW WIND master. If it starts to howl I'll be pulling other kites out of my quiver anyway.

Thanks all for such great insight. This is one of the most useful threads I've read in a while.