I'll be at JIBE and I'm almost certain to bring my crossover bar, it's the PKD version of the Turbo Bar. The OP or anyone else is welcome to try it as much as they like. I always fly my fixed bridles with a turbo bar because I prefer it to a strop and handles in the buggy.

Old Noob, you are also welcome to have a go in my buggy if you like as well.

Thanks John H for the vids and the input.
While the handles may be superior in others hands, I dont think I need a kite to do anymore than than what the Turbo bar/cross over bar will do. Problem is the Turbo is made of unobtainium as far as I can tell. Cant find one anywhere. Am looking at the Peter Lynn bar.

Bladerunner
My index finger is useable, unfortunately my middle finger is MIA. Hence the bar thing.

So was pretty impressed with the Nasa Star. Is Born kites aus Deutschland the only seller? Nobody stateside I can find with Google.

I probably over stated the wind speeds. Where I live on the marsh the winds whip pretty well I believe due to being influenced by a neighboring island. On the beaches its somewhat less. Also it seems that every 30mi south you go on the coast here the weather changes slightly. The Brunswick/Jekyll weather is slightly different than here in Darien. Go to Jacksonville and its totally different.

So what is a good size NS for say 5-15 mph? I weigh 175lbs + the buggy of course.

Jimbocz
Hope to see you there thats a most kind offer! All the way from the UK?!

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Jimbocz Hope to see you there thats a most kind offer! All the way from the UK?!

I'm sure most people won't mind letting you borrow stuff. Buggies are about indestructible and kites are usually fine once you've learned enough not to slam them into the ground or drop them in the ocean.

And yes, all the way from London by way of Istanbul. It's kind of a mid life treat for myself, I've always wanted to kite buggy on the beaches I went to as a kid.

Welcome to the forum! I will be at JIBE and have experience with the crossover bar on a beamer. I still have the bar
but no beamer for it. I'd be glad to part with it if you find that it works for you. I'm coming down early 4/24 so we could get together before the big show and get you started. I found that the beamers worked well on the turbo type bar, while
my reactors didn't.

Cheeks- would that be the OGBC, Old Geezer Buggy Club ? I think Morrie might have the Oldest Member title, I'm a mere
67. I think I hold the title for the state of Maine. There was a thread a year or more ago on the age topic and we found that we were an older person sport. Go figure.

Oldben, I have a new PL cross-over bar, still in its wrapper that I will not be using. I'd let you steal it from me.

U2U or email me if interested.

Quote:

So what is a good size NS for say 5-15 mph? I weigh 175lbs + the buggy of course.

I'd say a 5.5m if you're winds are relatively dense. In Queensland, from what I'm told, you'd probably opt for a 7m.

From what I've seen, the PL Xover bar looks almost identical to the Ozone bar and as you can see from my 'mock up' bar, you can easily put one together with a few pulleys, quick release and a normal bar.

You'll often find more than one way to skin the proverbial cat - if you can get together with some like minded kiters, you really can learn heaps.

Thanks for the suggestions John!

Should probably use the 7m as the temps are relatively high here in the summer. Even though we are at/near sea level the air density will drop off. When I used to fly while living in Florida, the early morning take offs were not near the nail bitters the ones in the afternoon were!

If you are considering Nasas at all then you should also look at Dutch Flying Objects Nasas 9 Depower. They have similar depower to NS, come in greater variety of sizes, are lower priced (they take out 21% VAT from the already lower price for foreign shipments) and , above all, have adjustable bridle (something that NS do not have) which allows you to set AOA as well as the trailing edge pull to your liking. This saved me a lot of time in modifications I felt I needed to make to NS. They seem to perform as well NS if not better because it is easier to make fine adjustments to the bridle settings. I have one of those in a small size and, from what I have seen so far, they would be my preferred choice in Nasas.

I have just done so Prussik.

They seem to be real nice folk to deal with! Answered my emails promptly. They also take paypal which makes paying a lot
easier. I am initially planing on ordering a 7m depower wing, lines and depower bar.

Any input, thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Id like to buy a wing with the widest useful wind range. Rather be a bit over powered than under. I still have two basic 3m foils that can be used in higher winds. I have watched a lot of vids on the Nasa and think its right for me.

Keep in mind that 7 m is a "big" kite in Nasas . They generate a lot of pull for the size. 7m is the largest Nasa I have and I use it only in the lightest of breezes. Depower helps up to a point. Also keep in mind that if you are using a bar with these Nasas, most of the pulling force will be on your arms if you want to have the depower function. I fly them on handles and 5 lines to have brakes as well as depower and 0 pull on my arms except when launching and landing prior to which I considerably depower them. See also my earlier posting under Dutch Flying Objects.

Understood on the 7m.

5.5(or there abouts) is the next size down. Is that enough for good pull in winds in the 8-12 mph range?
This is more the norm I believe in this area with 15-20 being less common but still happen often enough.

Think Id rather fight with a bit of over power(not excessive though) than fight keeping the kite flying. The stronger winds in
this area are generally after a frontal passage with the summer winds being a milder convectional sea breeze.

Since my experience is limited(very) to 3m foils I am relying on those of you with Nasa experience to help me out here. Would like to get the order underway by the first of the week.

Thanks for every ones continuing input!

It depends a lot on how much surface drag you have to deal with. Still it is a pretty big jump from 3 m classic FB to 5.5 Nasa. Unlike a classic FB, Nasas stay in the air even when underpowered with very little pull. For me 5.5 is still quite a large kite but I kite predominantly in low drag environment and, on clear ice, it is the largest size I ever use even in light breeze when it would be difficult to keep a regular FB of any size flying.

Ben, if single skins, DPs, and a harness are "in play" you could be well served by a 6m Flysurfer Peak in any of its versions (1, 2, or 3). Just sayin'...

Thanks yall!

I can buy a 7m Nasa and a depower bar or for slightly less money I can buy a 4.85 and 7m Nasa non depower kites and fly on my existing 2 line bar. I guess I could also buy depower kites only and fly them on my 3 line bar? I want to ride hooked in but I can do that on the non depower bars with a loop right.

The kites will be used for buggy and depending how well I handle it landboarding. All high drag I assume.

Thats a good point on having to hold the load with the depower bar. Couldnt a 3 line bar have setable depower with some sort of lockable adjustment.

Sorry to as so many questions just trying to come up with a workable solution for me so I can get it under way and on to the buggy.

Quote:

Couldnt a 3 line bar have setable depower with some sort of lockable adjustment.

I believe that's what Steffen's 'streetkiting' setup is. I have one but only used it once or twice. Flying a Nasa with the nose all scrunched up just feels....er....yuck. And it tends to be more prone to stalling. Hence I only use the kite fully powered but can release to the nose/depower line to dump the kite in case of emergency. As there is very little tension on the depower line on the NS3's, you need a separate 'trapeze loop' (I think??) so you can hook them to your harness.

As Steve said, a 6m P2 is a lot better - but also more complex and more $$$. Unless a s/h one comes up.... and a 5.5m LongStar 2 is just slightly better again....:evil:

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Thanks yall! I can buy a 7m Nasa and a depower bar or for slightly less money I can buy a 4.85 and 7m Nasa non depower kites and fly on my existing 2 line bar. I guess I could also buy depower kites only and fly them on my 3 line bar? I want to ride hooked in but I can do that on the non depower bars with a loop right. The kites will be used for buggy and depending how well I handle it landboarding. All high drag I assume. Thats a good point on having to hold the load with the depower bar. Couldnt a 3 line bar have setable depower with some sort of lockable adjustment. Sorry to as so many questions just trying to come up with a workable solution for me so I can get it under way and on to the buggy.

John is right. If you are looking for depower buy a depower kite. You can probably scavenge pulleys etc. and everything you need to build your own Turbo bar from what it sounds like you have already?

Prussik is right. 7m Nasa is more a low wind size than all round size. He really knows his Nasa kites and just may be over 67? Very skilled. If he is suggesting 5.5 and Dutch flying objects I would listen!

Steve is Right. I think you want to take a good look at the Peak depower / LongStar 2 kites. Personally I think it is the right kite for your needs!!!!! It seems with the SS depower kites you can pretty much get by with a 2 kite quiver. FB and Nasa you will need at least 3. Take note how the Longstar 2 has an adjustable stopper on the depower line!


You are asking about an AOA adjuster kit for FB. It's not as simple as yanking in on the Brake / Z bridle. B and C need adjusted as well. YES they make them but there is a reason nobody uses them. FB Kites are set at there optimal AOA ( usually ) from the factory.

So many options...... The best thing you can do is hold off until after you have been to JIBE before spending big bucks on kites. Do your research so you know what you are looking at and why it is different than brand B . Buying a Turbo bar for your Beamer is only good money if you think you will be sticking with that kite. Most don't. the 3m yes but 5m, not so much.

This is exactly the right time to be asking questions and doing your homework. Going to JIBE it will all gel and I expect you will come out of it a lot more sure if Turbo, Nasa or SS Peak / Born LongStar 2 depower is what you want to go with.

Yes, you can buy a D-loop to hook in to a 2/3 line bar. Buy one with a Quick release!!!

Jekyll island can be low drag on the hard pack and high drag ( requiring more kite ) in the soft stuff. As you would expect.

Great advice and info.

I guess Im not, to use an old term a prudent person. I tend to jump in and work it out as I go. I graduated at the top of the class from the school of hard knocks. I find experiences both good and bad good teachers. I dang sure use a feather board on my table saw now!

All that said I pretty much have it in my head I want to fly a Nasa. I will take the recommendation on the 5.5m and buy from DFO. I suppose maybe the Born kites are more refined? I can learn the finer points along the way.

So I dont necessarily want a depower if the standard kite will work fine. I couldnt readily determine if the standard DFO has a safety feature other than a bar leash like a 2 line foil? Is that enough/ok?


I believe I have concluded the Nasa dumps by collapsing the nose? Is a depower kite flown on a 3 line bar with the safety leash hooked to the nose via the third line a better option?

Looking for the simplest, user friendly set up on the 5.5 DFO.

Yall tell me what to order.

THANKS for being patient with my questions.

Ben,

The DFO and Born kites are very similar. The DFO is a NPW - 9 design. There are plans on the web to build various versions of that design. I have built and owned several different sizes of the NPW 9 design. The Born kite is based on the NPW-5. I've built a quite a number of NPW 5 based designs, some are my own adaptations of other designs. I also have the Born 5.5 and 7.0 NS kites.

The NPW 9 design is a higher performing kite. It was designed to fly on handles, but can be adapted to a bar which sacrifices a bit of the capability that handles provide. It is a bit harder to fly well than the Born designs which are designed to be flown on a bar. The Born kite is more docile and forgiving than the NPW 9. The Born kite is meant to be easier to fly and it is. They are both nice kites. I know some experts who don't really like the NPW 9, while others think its great.

It appears that both the Born and DFO kites use the same depower method (scrunching down the nose), and I suspect they both work just about as well. DFO just implemented the nose scrunch a little differently, but it appears to work in exactly the same manner. I've applied this nose scrunch method to my own home brew NPW's that I use with my buggy. I like it because often I can relaunch the kite without any untangling of lines, which can often happen with kite killers attached to one of the brake lines, for example. (I also have the uncanny ability to let go of the handle the kite killer is not attached to when using handles which can create quite a mess).

The term "depower" when applied to the Born kites is a bit misleading. It not like letting up on the throttle of your car when trying to slow down. It is more like turning the engine off completely and coasting to a stop. I have no reason to think the DFO method is any better (or worse.) It is really more of a safety device than an actual depower as used in kitesurfing kites or some of the more expensive and complicated foil designs talked about here.

To implement this a 3 line bar is needed. (However, that can be made by simply drilling a hole in the middle of a two line bar or making some other arrangement to attach a length of parachute cord, or the like.) The 3 rd line (in the center) is attached to a kite killer type leash and the other end is attached to the nose of the kite (through the lines supplied by the kite makers.) Normally, the line is slack for normal flying. To "depower" you just let go of the bar and the kite scrunches up and falls from the sky with the 3rd line still attached to your arm. A lot of times when the gust has abated I just grab the bar and the kite starts flying again. Anyway, you can get a 3 line bar pretty cheap on ebay. As John said above the main function of the "depower" is just to kill the kite when things go south. It will not magically make a 20 MPH gust feel like a 10 MPH gust.

You could probably do just fine with either kite, but expect a steeper learning curve with the DFO. Foils and true depowers are great too, so I'd echo what was said above - go to JIBE and see what set up makes the most sense to you. I've gone the NPW route because I like to build my own kites, but now I've started building conventional and single skin foils so I'm not sticking to just one kite.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

The term "depower" when applied to the Born kites is a bit misleading. It not like letting up on the throttle of your car when trying to slow down. It is more like turning the engine off completely and coasting to a stop.

Randy really has some good things to say in his thread just above. Man knows his kites. I used to own an entire quiver of Born-Kite NASA Star-2s from their very smallest (1.5m) to very largest (12.5m :o) and flew all of them as three line kites from a bar with 20m lines hooked into a harness while sitting in a buggy. The third line is great to dump all power in emergencies by pulling the safety and disengaging from the bar. It is generally impractical and even dangerous as a form of "depower" when in motion. I was once flying along in my buggy going faster than I wanted to and felt I needed to scrub power for safety. The problem is that when you scrunch the nose it makes the kite fly inefficiently and it will drop backwards in the wind window relative to you as the rider. In a sense think of the kite being a tad in front of you and then creeping back until it is behind you but you are still moving quickly forward in the buggy. The kite went back, back, back and eventually tumbled to the ground a bit behind me. I let go of the third line slack I had pulled in (maybe about two feet of line and WHAM! The kite inflated and surged forward to its original position. Almost slammed into a fence and goal post. Also nearly a Code Brown.

I'm just saying that the 3rd line on a B-K NS is great for dumping all power when buggying but not a good call for bleeding off a little power when going too fast. That is when something like a Peak shines. If going too fast for comfort you simply let the bar out a few inches and power bleeds right off. Total throttle down sort of feeling.

My quiver has been reworked as a buggy-only quiver with safety in mind and is far from a high performance set up. Peaks and Long-Star2s for buggying and my three NS3s for static handle flying when I (very occasionally) go to the beach and like to sink my toes in the sand and get pulled around. Naw, it ain't sexy, but it keeps me buggying. :karate:

I've had one of those "sudden burst of power" things happen as well when I was not expecting it. A scary moment for sure. Best to simply coast to a stop or slow speed, wait for the gust to pass and then re-inflate the kite.

OK

Heres my current thinking. Since Im ordering I can probably get a second kite thrown in for the same shipping
cost.

My order will be a DFO 5.5 depower with their 3 line bar and lines(R2F basically). The bar and lines look nicely done and are cheap enough. Wont have to rob my 3m HQ Rush Pro of its set up.

A second smaller kite either a 3.5 or a 4.5. Im leaning towards the 4.5.

If I did the conversion to Euros and tax removal correctly this will only come to $312-321 shipped for a basic quiver. Certainly reasonable enough for what you get.

Finally since I a noob I wont know if these kites will fly better or worse than anything else. I will just learn to use em and like em, leaving the finer critique to you accomplished flyers. I also still have the 3 and 5m foils. I bought a PL cross over for the 5m Beamer.

Now I can work both sides of the street so to speak.

Hope you get it in time for JIBE. I would like to see how they do the depower.

When it comes to refinement both NS and DFO Nasas are both very simple and easily modifiable kites. I would say DFO are more refined on the account of the adjustable bridle and rather nicer depower line connections. NS have nicer bags. The fabric on DFO seems to be a little thinner which may be of some consequence if ab(used) in abrasive environment.

I would not even consider a non- depowerable version of DFO Nasa. The price differential is minimal and the depower is quite effective if used with proper bridle adjustments, extending the power range. It is also your safety line if you let go of the bar. I use NS and now DFO depowered a lot without any control issues, with good upwind performance and good power modulation AFTER bridle adjustments which are much easier to do on DFO. I don't see any difference in flying difficulty of DFO vs NS. The complaints about the nose depower being useless originate, I presume, from the fact that Nasas, in their off the shelf configuration, have a tendency of flying backwards at times as a result of too steep AOA and too much trailing edge pull - the factors which also negatively affect the window width. If you combine these with the collapsed nose the effect may be as described by a few of the above postings degrading the value of the depower. Nothing that can't be taken care of by bridle adjustment. Of course there is a limit of how much depower you can have and use effectively.

Getting going with a set of DFO's won't be too bad. If you get them soon enough that you are familiar with them by JIBE you can spend less time trying to be hands on with different kites and more time with your :moon: in a buggy.

I completely agree that you can't miss what you don't know. That said, talk with the folks who are flying Peaks. Most of them will have hands on experience with NASA wings.

I am not 100% clear on what turns you off about depower? Something of note is the adjustable stopper on the LS2. You can use it to limit the bar throw. When cruising the beach you can lock it in at the perfect power setting and fly with pretty much no bar pressure / hands free. You will also be able to get to that state with a DFO but only if you have made the perfect choice for the day and the wind doesn't change as you travel.

I don't use bars but one thing that immediately comes to mind is that if you limit the bar travel (which is easy to do) then you better make sure that you have a reliable QR and know how to use it - instinctively.

I think the 4.5m and 5.5m might be a bit close in size - I think you'd be better served with the 3.5m and 5.5m.

Quote: Originally posted by Prussik

I use NS and now DFO depowered a lot without any control issues, with good upwind performance and good power modulation AFTER bridle adjustments which are much easier to do on DFO.

That makes me even more anxious to see Ben's DFO's at JIBE.

Mr Born sells a bar conversion kit. 50.00. You can adapt a bar with a hole in it to fly the depower NASA kites. I used most of the parts, and a naked fusion bar from eBay.
Any round hole or slotted would work.

OK John

Will go with the 5.5 and 3.5 depowers. I guess the smaller compact size of the kites compared to a foil belies their pulling
power. Watching a vid of Mr Cline(I think, watched so many) being pulled while sitting convinced me.

So from what has been said here flying the Nasa in some degree of depower(scrunched nose) is good or bad? As was said they dont "throttle" like a foil or LEI. So if thats the case depower is really used as a form of power trim? If so then why fly the depower bar? A three liner with adjustable trim on the center line should do fine? Not trying to open any debuts here but just understand.

Thats a fine looking bar that was converted. I have two LEI depowers I could convert one also. However it would seem a trimable 3 liner would work just fine for changing wind conditions generally. I guess a depower bar handles trim constantly but requires constant attention(holding).

Im contemplating maybe using one of the chicken loops off the LEI bars. It has a swivel This would allow turning the bar to remove twists and would anchor only in the center allowing more bar travel compared to a loop. I believe I saw a DFO 3 line bar having an eyelet above the bar for the 3rd line? If so I maybe be able to anchor the chicken loop thru the eyelet(and around the bar) and still have room for the 3rd line to pass. I can certainly convert a standard 2 line bar to do this. I havent dug the LEI bar out to see exactly how its mounted but there is a jam cleat on it somewhere. Would be nice it it could be used to trim the 3rd line.

Is my thinking skewed? Straighten me out!

Hope to order early in the week so would like to really know the best way to go. I have no problem buying the DFO depower bar as its plug n play, but dont want to if I really can fly a modded 3 liner with trim.

Ben,

If you are going with Born-Kite NASA Stars (in any version) than what you are looking to do is something similar in concept to what Ed just posted. The power lines (one left, one right) will be secured to the outer tips of the bar. The third central line will pass through the center of the bar. This third central line will not have tension on it during normal flight. The actual line going through the bar is not the same line as is going out to the kite; rather, it is a piece of line that can be manipulated for length with a series of knots out at the end, spaced to provide the right amount of length to the third central line such that when the outer power lines are taught under load the third central line has just a touch of give to it. Loose enough not to scrunch the nose but snug enough not to hang far under the power lines during flight. You'll find that different size NS kites need different length central lines which is why you have a couple of knots out there.

Next, you will need a "trapeze". This is a chicken loop of sorts that secures to the bar and is not the same as an LEI chicken loop. This trapeze needs to have a quick release or you'll be anchored to the bar. Nope, don't want that.

During flight, when you want to scrunch the nose you pull in the central line with your hand. Born has a little block and tackle system for this that incorporates the yellow ball and long rectangular metal ring shown in Ed's picture, though not assembled like that. If you need to bail during flight you pull the quick release on the trapeze and let go of the bar. Assuming you've got the central line attached to your harness the bar will fly up the lines and the kite will flag on its central line. Final point, Born has a little stopper that gets installed on the piece of line that goes through the center of the bar that only lets the bar travel up the line enough to flag out the kite, but not so much as to invert the wing. That can cause quite the rats nest.

Good luck!