as far as i remember, the 900 euro for the zephyr was list price minus 10% . that is the usual discount you get for ozone products in germany.

yeah, the PL tubes are in the "usual" price range of todays tubekites. yet i think that todays prices for tubes are a joke.

for around 1500 euro you get 17 sqm paragliders ( swing hybrid sport for example ) that are masterpieces in terms of precisition, robustness ( 8 G load tested) and quality; and are for sure much harder to produce !

test

(sorry if double-post - forum has spooky behaviour currently?)

as far as i remember, the 900 euro for the zephyr was list price minus 10% . that is the usual discount you get for ozone products in germany.

yeah, the PL tubes are in the "usual" price range of todays tubekites. yet i think that todays prices for tubes are a joke.

for around 1500 euro you get 17 sqm paragliders ( swing hybrid sport for example ) that are masterpieces in terms of precisition, robustness ( 8 G load tested) and quality; and are for sure much harder to produce !

True. But different material involved ... I think economies of scale come into play there ...?
All kite prices are quite high, you're right!

Someone is smoking to much to price these kites this much. $2200 for the 19m Fury Light? I'll erase it from my list of potential kites to get for light wind San Diego. Don't Flysurfers go for about that much??

Heck no!
Check out the RRP of light wind specific big ol' LEIs... they're not cheap by a long shot. I think the price is right on the money, so to speak...

We here have been spoiled by great deals from our kiting brothers look at the RRP here for the big kites - and they aren't even the Dyno!
http://www.kite-line.com/kiteboardingkites/north

Wait a minute here. Geo, are you saying that the Peter Lynns are in some way less valuable than a FLysurfer?

Man that just stings.


Kami is right tho. You want a performance light wind kite, it isn't going to be free.

Understood it isn't going to be free. But considering they are made by low wage labor, of relatively simply materials, less sewing than an arc, and the design stands on the shoulders of others, they seem a bit overpriced. As do many of the LEI kites. And they will last as long as an arc. And all that other stuff...

But to each their own. Guess there is a market for them, or they wouldn't be priced as they are.

It's expensive to get a kite to market considering prototypes, tweaks, all the R&D expense to get it right. These kites were started from scratch so it cost some money to get it all together. The final pricing is poised to balance demand with supply, and to position the kite amongst it's peers in the market. The proof is in the pudding when they either storm the market because they are so great or just piddle around because there isn't any reason to choose them over what's already out there.

The program that is licensed by Legaignoux to all the LEI kite makers would make the statement "started from scratch" a little misleading. The profile, aspect ratio, tube size, etc, can all be tweaked from the program from what I've heard. And just looking at the current market of kites would certainly have helped. I don't know how anyone could make a kite, any kite, from scratch.

Pricing a kite to appear to be as good as other overpriced kites is marketing, I suppose. But it doesn't make the kite any better.

It may be a great kite and well worth the money. Time will tell.

if they are clever, they allow dealers to give huge "introduction" discounts to customers for the tubes...

Looks like $2000+ is the going price for most new 2012 kites. Might be time to give a Griffin a try, saw them listed for $1200 complete.

Quote:

Originally posted by geokite The program that is licensed by Legaignoux to all the LEI kite makers would make the statement "started from scratch" a little misleading. The profile, aspect ratio, tube size, etc, can all be tweaked from the program from what I've heard. And just looking at the current market of kites would certainly have helped. I don't know how anyone could make a kite, any kite, from scratch. Pricing a kite to appear to be as good as other overpriced kites is marketing, I suppose. But it doesn't make the kite any better. It may be a great kite and well worth the money. Time will tell.

By "from scratch" I mean they don't have a current model in house. No designs to work from other than looking at what competitors have done. I'm sure they started by looking at what was available and deciding what the design parameters were going to be and then go into design with an image of what the kite would look like.

If you price your product high, it has to back up the price with performance that makes it worthy. Time will tell for sure.

Nav bar with front line safety drops my Wainman, Ovando, and Waroo with no issues (last years setup purchased from Chudaliscious). I had a new depower pilot on it Saturday @ OOBE and he had no issues with deploying, reconncet and relaunch............................

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkahuna Looks like $2000+ is the going price for most new 2012 kites. Might be time to give a Griffin a try, saw them listed for $1200 complete.

:shocked2: $2000 is nuts wow so much for my dreams of making my 9m inflato a brand new model. I'll stick to buying year end blow outs and new to me's off the for sale section. If I was spending 2k or more it would be on a flysurfer and that's about it me thinks.

In addition to having to cover the R&D and startup costs for new product introduction I wonder if there is some consideration for buyer perception taken into acct. here.

If the kite is priced too low it may be percieved as a buget product. Probably not how you want your newest high performance product looked at. We can compare these things to whatever kites we like. We can take into acct that they are being pruduced by cheap labor etc. but lets face it, new kites are expensive. High end or low end and it doesn't matter who makes them.

It's too bad because it puts this sport out of the reach of a lot of people that don't have much money. Especially kids and if you can't get kids into it you'll never see any susbstantial growth.

If you're prepared to wait for end-of-season sales, you won't ever pay RRP. There's always deals to be had... pick up a near new kite off one of the early-adopters who just HAS to have a brand new kite every year, for example.

As for pricing the sport out of the realms of trailer trash - I have no problem with that :piggy:

True. There are always going to be those with expendable income that will buy the latetest/greatest and then dump it for the next year's version. If you're lucky enough to find someone like that then you're golden.

Trash doesn't just live in trailers Kami. Trash is a state of mind and I know plenty of people who are trash but have money. Sometimes the difference between you and someone who has no money and is forced to live in squaller is just a little luck.

I'm concerned about people like myself with moderate incomes being able to afford it. Or is it better to simply price the sport into stagnation? Keep it such a narrow market and sales so low that the prices will always be through the roof? I don't think so.

Then again maybe you're right Kami. Maybe we should keep kites out of the hands of the those with low income. While we're at it let's keep them out of the hands of minorities, women and children too.

Trailer trash is a generic term in New Zealandish for that state of mind you describe and IMHO usually means they have more means at their disposable than they do brain cells think - jet ski riders.

I'm pretty sure the price is what it costs - there's minimal effects from economies of scale and the goodies lust, cool factor and ease of pose-factor just isn't there in this sport to draw in huge numbers... you actually have to put in a lot of hours to get be just a beginner! That tends to scare of the Blackberry/iPhone knobs who can be instant heros with the latest $1,000 phone and no outlay of sweat, blood and swear words.

It's a good and a bad thing... be nice to have cheaper gear, but it's great being able to do something a bit special... like, not riding a Japanese motorbike :D

"If the kite is priced too low it may be percieved as a buget product."
I think if we were talking about a list price of $100 that argument might make sense, but the cheapest new kite I've found lists for around $1,200. Even that's not exactly cheap. Having spent a bit of time in the kite industry I can tell you that these kite manufacturers operate with huge margins. Ignore the claims about how expensive technology and research are, that's just a smoke screen. They're making huge profits and with these new prices stand to make even more.

I haven't spent any time in the kite industry but I've been selling skis and bikes at some level for tha past 20 yrs and one thing I've found is that often if something is priced "too low" the perception is that it's is not as good and sales suffer as a result. People don't like the perception of buying a buget product, some people need to pay more to feel good about the purchase and the product. Especially people with disposable income.

If another kite is built to the same specs as a Flysurfer Speed 3 SA for example, and it costs 1/3 the price ( in know you couldn't produce that kite at 1/3 $) most would be suspicious of it's quality. Only those who have to really watch thier spending would be willing to take a chance on that purchase.

If the manufactures are in fact making high margins, which I'm not entirely convinced they are, then they are doing it at the expense of dealers because I'm pretty sure that the dealers aren't making high margins. If they were they're would be more dealers and more of the existing dealers would have kite sales as thier sole source of income.

Realistically high margin is a relative term. If one is used to making a 18-25% margin (which is what some high end bike product fetches on a good day for example) then a 30-40% margin would be considered high. Most margins are made on support product like spare parts etc. that have a low cost but can be sold at a premium. Usually 50 -60% margin or more depending on what the local market will bear.

A

"...one thing I've found is that often if something is priced "too low" the perception is that it's is not as good and sales suffer as a result."

Nonsense. For every Richie Rich who believes that there are 1,000+ bargain shoppers who go for the better price. Just try standing in front of Walmart sometime and tell me I'm wrong. The reason Best Kites even got on the map was because they sold at a lower price than anyone else.

"If the manufactures are in fact making high margins, which I'm not entirely convinced they are, then they are doing it at the expense of dealers because I'm pretty sure that the dealers aren't making high margins."

Yup, you hit the nail on the preverbal head. From kite factory to consumer, the dealers have the smallest margins and they stand to loose the most when they have to discount their prices (which they often do).

It wasn't more than a couple years ago that any kite on the market could be had for $1,200 complete. Then it went up to $1,500, now it's more like $2,000-2,200. Any idea what it costs per kite in China (at one time I considered launching my own line of kites)? Try $50. I'm talking about inflatos, now Flysurfers are a different product and a different market. Same goes, but to a lesser degree, for Peter Lynns. But inflato kites are dirt cheap to manufacture in China.

Outfits like Wally World, Home Depot and all the other monsters have enough clout that they can got to the manufature and have things made up to thier specs. The product purchased in those store are sold cheaper often because they're cheaper quality. Sure, most average consumers are going to purchase from them.

But I would say that most people purchasing new kites are not your average consumer.

Sure Best got where they are now by being the budget kite brand. And the perception as I see it is that for a lot of people they are still considered the Budget brand inspite of the fact that you can probably pay almost 2k for a large version of thier upper end product. Do I think being a budget brand is a bad thing? Not really, it depends on where you want to be placed in the market. Does it make it a bad kite? No. Love them or hate them Best is what it is because they were agressive with thier pricing and marketing.

But if you are introducing a product and want it looked at as a premium item you are going to have to list it at a premium price. I guess is the bottom line. If you arer introducing a begginer/entry level kite then it should be priced accordingly.

I guess the only route is to take the dealers out of the equation then. Look at Switch for example. They are selling direct to consumers at half what Best or Slingshot etc. are. At $50 bucks produstion a kite by your estimate they are making a killing without the hassle of managing a dealer network and the time/cost associated with it. Is the where the industry is going? I don't know. Will thier foils be priced the same way? Like you said, different market.

If Switch's product is as good as anyone else's out there they are where Best was a few years ago I assume. Unless they produce something radical in design that puts the apart form other kites. But that would take a fair amount of R&D which takes time and resources. That will cause thier prices to go up as well.

I guess the success or failure of Manufacturer direct is as always going to depend on customer service and support. It seems like many do well intitially until the customer base becomes too big to manage and things collapse. If they can provide good customer service long term then they will be fine, but it's hard to do that as a manufacturer to consumers. It very rarely works out but who knows? Even at Switch prices kiting is a pricey sport for some.

Now if you want to talk about high margins for Chinese made product I have three words "Wicker-bike-baskets". Seriously, they can be had for almost nothing more than the cost of getting a container shipped in.

Anyway this has gotten waaaaaaaaaay off topic. What I want to know is has anyone bought or demoed a new Fury yet? I want to hear what consumer impressions are.

We all know that the 6-pack of socks you just bought for $10 actually only cost 75 cents to make in Indonesia... but that's not all the cost involved in bringing the product to market.

For the kites, I bet there's a huge outlay in hardware for manufacture, setting up a line & distribution network, hooking up with suppliers etc etc - so while the cost per unit may 'seem' low and the mark-up large, I bet there's a lot of hidden costs that a retailer doesn't see...

I could be wrong of course

Someone mentioned margins earlier. All MFRs don't treat their retailers the same by a long shot. Some really take care of their dealers and make sure that their lifeline with the retail customers has a fair margin in it, which they earn by taking their time meeting with customers and answering their phone calls and emails along with covering fixed costs of operating their business and cost of having inventory to meet customer needs. Other MFRs act like they are doing the dealers a favor by letting them carry their products and when you see a price decrease in retail that might've just been off the profit margin that the dealer was using to pay his bills with. Add to that how some MFRs actually compete directly with their dealers without any means to offer support to the customer and you see how very different each company can be.

Interesting .

I know when I am approached by people that are interested in the sport the real interested ones ask how much it costs to get set up to go. If I simply tell them the retail price of gear you can see the sticker shock hit them like a bomb ! When I explain that quality second hand gear can be had at about 1/2 the cost I see some coming around but all too often you see the interest is gone.

I was pleasently surprised to see that the majority of people in the sport ( back in 2004 ) were OG. I realized it was due to the cost of getting started. When second hand kites got too cheap I noticed a lot of young Cowboys buying the wrong gear and going out without instruction . The result was beach closures and a bad reputation. Now that old kites can be picked up on ebay for $100 keeping new kite costs unreasonably high doesn't keep the Cowboys from giving it a try. So much for the only reason I can see to charge so much.

I agree. If they could sell kites for $800 - $1200 new a few years ago there is little to convince me manufacturing costs have almost doubled ?

Best is a good example of a company that tried to come in with new ideas and lower costs beating the bad press with good product and winning. You don't have to price your gear out of reach of the commmon man to win a loyal following!

HQ is another company that I respect for winning over the market with quality product at a competetive price.

Unfortunately I have the same reaction to the pricing as others . My budget dictates that I wait and see if the LEI becomes a must have kite for me and then I will only be able to afford second hand. Pretty much how I sit with Flysurfer.

I can get a 15m Charger complete for $1500.. a 13m Fury complete for $1923
I would think that it would cost a bunch more to make a Twinskin
Is there more hidden costs with getting a tube kite to market? More R&D for the tubes vs. the charger?

I love my Arcs and PeterLynn is a great company that makes good products but in the LEI world
they are the new guys.. I bet the kites are far from perfect.

If I was going to spend $1900 on a new LEI it would be from a company that been around for a while, not the new guy..
If I want to go with the new guy I can get a 14m Switch Nitro complete for $1035.. $900 less

I think the PL kites need to be priced in line with the new guys not the
best.. I can get a new Ocean Rodeo Rise for less.

Buy a new PL Tube.....
Not a chance

Hi,
I'm new to this Forum, but thought I'd give my 2 cents.
I've always ridden cheap second hand kites because I ride in the waves and have trashed my share of equipment (goes back to my days as a windsurfer - Waves always win). At any rate, I'm always looking for good prices. This led me to learn that Kahoona is right. The kites really only cost a hundred or maybe two hundred at the most to produce in China. A Chinease factory that produces "known" kite brands quickly "learns" about kites. They then produce thier own "design" and sell them for about $200 if you buy 10 or more of them. They will put what ever logo you want on them also. So there it is... if you want to start a kite company, just contact a factory over there and your off!
I'm not saying ANYTHING about the PL LEI's!
Obviously R&D is the big question, all costs go from there!
As far as Priceing high to seem better quality...
Yea, what ever!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner HQ is another company that I respect for winning over the market with quality product at a competetive price.

Helping a friend get his first kite and really was blown away at how well priced a 2012 HQ foil really is. A brand spanking new 10meter Apex 3 is at least $500 or better cheaper than a 10m access. I would think the quality to be just as good in today's world. At least that is what all the reviews were telling me.

@Feyd - I think you missed my point about Walmart shoppers, it was meant to illustrate the buying tendencies of the vast majority of consumers. Even on this forum, for every kiter here who is willing to spend $2200 for a kite there are at least 10 who would rather spend $1000 or less, regardless of the label or name on it.

@BeamerBob - Your post is spot on.

I personally think Peter Lynn's marketing strategy for their new LEI's is flawed: there's simply no compelling reason to buy their kite versus someone else's. Yes, there is a small community of die hard Peter Lynn advocates, but how many of them will switch over to LEI's especially when the Peter Lynn branded LEI offers nothing significantly better than the other LEI's? It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I wish them the best of luck but I suspect their venture into the inflato world may be short lived.