Just sold my final foil, and am not regretting...

LEI's in my opinion better in every way besides low wind.
But yet again silver arrow will only get you 2 extra knots!
And yes I got going in 6 knots with Speed 17, but it is no fun at all!
better to wait for 8 knots and can get going with my 16 lei which at least turns descently.

Stability:
LEI definetely win here. Foils dont like gusty condition. They loose their shape way to easy.

Winner - LEI

Top End:
As there is more wind speed, the more gusty it gets in my experience. Whether it is frontal winds or trade winds in Cuba, same story. Lei handle gusts better, (not even peter lynn from my experience)

Winner - LEI

Low End:
Foils are better in it without a doubt. They are definetely more efficient.

Winner - Foil

Depower:
Psycho 4 and Pulse 2, when fully depowered in the top end, perform incredibly #@%$#!ty, especially P4 during jump-downloop transition, it's tips in 25 knots, start flipping like crazy! Lei doesnt have that problem. When you depower you still have control of a kite.

Winner LEI

Windrange:
About the same for modern bow kites and foils, yet again, foils fly relatively worse in their top end then lei. Lei's I tried tend to be phenomenal in their top range. Psycho 4 was really good between 15-20 knots, but with higher gusts it becomes too unstable.

Winner LEI

Safety:
Death and life wise, both safeties system on lei's and foils work well. The only thing, it is very hard to make a self rescue with foil although everysingle time I did successfully, yet with lots of swearing. So safety wise both are about the same, but self rescue wise lei's are better.

Winner - Both

Turning Speed:
Without a doubt, LEI's turn faster. Some may say that they don't need fast turning kite, but try jumping on 12 meter pulse 2 and then try on lei. Lei would be way better as you have more time to redirect the kite. P4 was alright, but still a bit too slow. I find jumping way easier on LEI's. Okey I am not saying you can't jump with P4, You can, it is just requires more skills then with LEI's.

Winner - LEI

Inflation:
Well, speed of setup goes to foil. It takes me 2 minutes and I am on water. LEI's it takes about 10-15 minutes.
Landing LEI's is easier, because again, foil's tend to collapse near ground and it is hard to catch sometimes. Especially p4. P2 is way more stable.

Winner - Foil.

So the final Verdict is 5 For LEI and 2 for Foils.

Bottom Line for me was that, I couldn't progress any further with foils so I decided to switch my top end kite from foil to waroo 9 meter. I liked it so much that I got 12 meter Rhino. And now I figured that spleene door accounts for most of low end, not the kite, so there went my 17 to st.catharine.

I think there are way to many foils and LEI's to make definitive statements for each category since they differ so much, brand to brand, even model to model. But I like the idea of a comparison. I just think you should use less generalized statements like LEI to foil, and more specific examples like Speed2 to Best Waroo.


My two cents.

Ahh a breath of fresh air. I fly mostly north, 14 rhino is my goto kite now. The depower is amazing. Huge windrange. Lets no forget the easy relaunch of LEIs.
Ill have to disagree on the gust munching, the PLs are just a bit smoother. Its close though depending on which LEI.
I cant wait to see where this goes as it seem to be a foil majority on here.

By Foils I mean Flysurfers.

Peterlynn's in gusty wind like to flag out. Lei's Keep their shape and backstall. For the sake of argument BY LEI'S I mean the best LEI's on a market, and by Foil's I mean Best foils (for water use) that are on market, and its either Flysurfer or Peter Lynn.

Are you not using these for land traction? (your avatar hold a landboard).

This one will be busy for awhile. I think it is high time we hash this out. There are many guys that have crossed over. Some have stuck with Peter Lynns, others more traditional foils such as FS and NEOs. Others have converted to LEIs. Let the discussion begin.

One category not mentioned was durability measured in years. I know there is the odd LEI out there that has been used for 5 years and still works great but how consistent is that? Can they be effectively used on land?

Another is resale value. Lets see how that stacks up with those that have seen both sides. Lots of demand for 2004 LEIs today? Much less a remake of a 5 year old design with only a few minor changes?

Upwind performance?

Lets talk about it all and while we probably won't be able to declare a winner everyone can agree on, maybe we can get a balanced laundry list like above with all things considered.

Your not talking about gusting your talking about dropping winds or lulls.

Quote:

Originally posted by live2hover I think there are way to many foils and LEI's to make definitive statements for each category since they differ so much, brand to brand, even model to model. But I like the idea of a comparison. I just think you should use less generalized statements like LEI to foil, and more specific examples like Speed2 to Best Waroo. My two cents.

I agree with this statement. Way too many generalizations here. I'm happy you found SLE's work better for you and your beaches riding style/personal preferences etc. but that doesn't mean they are "better for everyone."

I agree SLE's are great for nuking winds. in fact I have an eclipse 10m that I use for those conditions.

I personally think both styles of kites have there advantages and disadvantages. Foils are definitely a niche and most people at the beach will tell you they are gay or old school or whatever but the bottom line is try lots of different kites, fly what feels right to you and works the best for your beaches. not what someone tries to tell you will be best.

my thesis is that for WATER use, LEI's are better after all compared to Flysurfers. And primary argument is actually performance on water. The resale value and the life of a foil are important too, but in my opinion they are secondary considerations

I do hold a landboard there, but I sold it, as I find it more enjoyable to ride on water then on land.

And no I mean gusts, not lulls, When it lulls in Ontario the kite fall down. But yeah silver arrow tends to stay up there.

nwsurfwakeskate
definetely people should use whatever they like and what fits them. I gave my foils 10 pulse, 12 P2 and 12 P4 to try to other people and they consistently preffered LEI"s. Then I tried LEI's and saw for myself, that they do exceed in many areas. I am not saying that Flysurfers are bad kites, but what I do say that with confidence from experience, that in order to progress faster, it is beneficial to switch to LEI's because of the reasons I outlines originally.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah nwsurfwakeskate definetely people should use whatever they like and what fits them. I gave my foils 10 pulse, 12 P2 and 12 P4 to try to other people and they consistently preffered LEI"s. Then I tried LEI's and saw for myself, that they do exceed in many areas. I am not saying that Flysurfers are bad kites, but what I do say that with confidence from experience, that in order to progress faster, it is beneficial to switch to LEI's because of the reasons I outlines originally.

So this isn't really an ARC/LEI discussion then?

Personally I prefer foils for riding in up to about 30mph winds.

Reasons why:

Upwind ability (Pulse 2 and P4 seem to be on pair with an SLE for upwind but get on a Speed 2 and you'll be finding yourself jumping and riding toeside to keep from getting too far upwind of the pack)

Hangtime (Pulse 2 and P4 both act a lot like SLE's in this catagory but I have found they sit at zenith better when you're hanging where as SLE's have to be worked back n forth to keep them over your head and keep from dropping you like a rock. Speed 2 feels like a glider when you leave the water. super stable and hangs you up there for awhile )

Lightwind lift (I can start jumping earlier and bigger then other riders on equivalently sized LEI's)

Lightwind/windshadowed relaunch (Flysurfers can relaunch in lighter conditions then any LEI I've seen on the market)

Durability

No pumping (no big deal on small kites but try pumping a 17m sometime. that's a work out!)

Pack smaller (most of the beaches I ride at require a bit of a walk to get to. its nice to be able to carry 2 kites in one bag and not worry about my pump breaking or getting lost. Also this is great for traveling with a golf bag)

Versatility (water,snow,land)



I choose foils even knowning that I will be called gay in the forums for flying wet sleeping bags and crap like that. and that no SLE repair shop will want to touch my kite. People on the beach will always hesitate to catch my kite and I will always have a higher risk for tangles and weeds making my life more complicated on the water. I also understand that I will always have to be familiar with my gear and understand how mixers work and how to "tune" a kite. for me the advantages heavily out weigh the disadvantages.

the funny part is that people around here are starting to respect me as a rider now that they are seeing I can throw down behind my kookchute/wet sleeping bag. I get up wind of "everyone" and go bigger and float longer then any other kite on the water with the exception of Powerzone who is also on Flysurfers.

Sure I can't turn my kite as fast but honestly. I hate fast turning. it kicks my butt every time I botch a jump i tweak the bar just a little tiny bit and my thruster tomahawks into the water leaving me free falling from 20ft. Sure kiteloops are much more difficult but I'm not really interested in doing those anyway since I'm not dying to have knee surgery any time soon. the local forum here has about a half dozen guys with blown knees right now because of crap like kiteloops.

when I'm out on the speed 2. I tell them its not me its the kite. Its always great to see the expression on there face as they realize. "hey maybe these flysurfers ARE good kites for the water"

Again. try lots of kites and fly what works best for you.


my thruster will be for sale soon now that I have the P4 back in my quiver

bottom line.

oldschool, big air, board offs, speed and upwind park and ride. foils may be better. I certainly think the speed 2 stands out.

new school, SLE's are probably going to be a better bet for unhooked, strapless, wave style riding.

you may be correct for your inland/wind conditions but for here on the coast, Flysurfers are awesome...............................................Peter Lynns are awesome anywhere.................................
good luck with the new quiver....................

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude you may be correct for your inland/wind conditions but for here on the coast, Flysurfers are awesome...............................................Peter Lynns are awesome anywhere................................. good luck with the new quiver....................

I ride flysurfers inland.

Most of my launches have clean wind though. I have definitely seen foils have more trouble with wind rotors but around here we have so many choices for places to ride its pretty easy to avoid those more dangerous launches. and SLE will handle them a little better but they can still fall out of the sky powering up on there way down to the ground. I've seen it happy many times....

Quote:

I personally think both styles of kites have there advantages and disadvantages. Foils are definitely a niche and most people at the beach will tell you they are gay or old school or whatever but the bottom line is try lots of different kites, fly what feels right to you and works the best for your beaches. not what someone tries to tell you will be best.

Why do those on this site try to jam foils down your throat?

Someone said resale value, for one LEI have seen huge changes over the last few years, so the old 2004 kites dont hold their value. We do however still see brand new c kites. slingshot fuel, flexifoil hadlow pro, ect. So there are remakes of old kites. Hell Best has even brought back the Yarga.

I here about the durability of kites, how foils are so much better. LEIs always have bladder problems. This just dosent hold true. Take care of either foil or LEI and they will last. Crash alot, drag them across the ground, they wont last as long. Both can rip or be torn. LEIs have bladders that can pop. Foils have bridals that stretch and tear out. I can replace a bladder and the kite flys like new, replace bridals and theres alot of tweaking to get it to fly like it was new.

Lets talk about relaunch. Someone ripping across wipes out, or pulls safety, lines go slack kite piles in. 75% of the time an LEI will be in the air faster then a foil. Most new LEIs its as simple as pulling an outside line.

Upwind, depends on wind conditions, Light wind ill have to say foils, Pile on some high end gusty stuff and ill take an LEI.
Old school old guy riding= Foil, Hard core wakestyle, ripping of some waves, or first water starts =LEIs.

If foils were that good wouldnt all the pros be riding them? Wouldnt all the schools be using them.

Gee i ride the coast and i can count how many foil guys there are on one hand. Heck the whole week i was in hatters i only saw one guy on a foil and he was with us.

I snowkited in NY and Vermont and id say it was 50/50.
Sure if i had extra cash id pick up some foils for snowkiting. Pumping in cold sucks. But my LEIs work just as good for that.

Few weeks back was kiting a local spot, rigging up, and a guy was asking about my buddy on his PL. After explaining to him about it , i told him
"Its all the same, just different."

For the most part you are just giving your personal preference apart from the gusts in the upper wind range which i completely agree with, i'm not a fan of small flysurfers at all

However, the 12m speed 2 is revolutionary in every way, simply amazing the lift is out of this world, if you fly in 10-25mph wind like i have not found anything that will beat that kite for jumps and soaring upwind

I have had more kites than i care to count and at the moment i have two small ocean rodeos and two large flysurfers and i'm pretty much perfectly happy

I am a little sad the way flysurfer seems to be trying to make their kites just turn as fast as they can and make them feel more like inflatables. They should know better than that. People who ride inflatables will dislike flysurfers at first no doubt, it takes getting used to but i just prefer them in my wind range. Flysurfers should be designed for old school, huge air, great upwind - in my opinion - that's exactly what the speed2 is and i think it's the best kite they've made. If they do want to make any changes then should refine it for more vertical lift and not worry about turning speed too much.

When i was learning to do tricks turning speed was great and i loved having my 10m SLE for that so i could redirect fast and get the hand movement of redirecting successfully sealed in my brain but now i just love doing huge floaty jumps on my speed2 its much more fun.

But i'm glad you've found kites you're happy with

well said dom!

I definitely agree. The speed 2 12m is in its own class.

If I could somehow get my thruster to turn a bit slower I'd consider keeping it. but my last session on it pretty much firmed it up in my mind that my skill level does not meet the requirements to fly such a twitchy kite. maybe I should get a 6m or 8m ocean rodeo as a replacement for it if the 10m P4 ends up being too big for riding in the gorge...

Ok before i seem like a foil loving hippie, i love kites, not just foils, i just think you're not really talking from experience, rather just the opinion that you don't like foils without giving them the time of day.

Quote:

Why do those on this site try to jam foils down your throat?

do we?? I wasn't aware of this... people here like to talk about how much they like their kites sure but i don't think that's true at all, this is a very nice forum with lots of nice people having fun...

Quote:

Someone said resale value, for one LEI have seen huge changes over the last few years, so the old 2004 kites dont hold their value. We do however still see brand new c kites. slingshot fuel, flexifoil hadlow pro, ect. So there are remakes of old kites. Hell Best has even brought back the Yarga.

I do see your point, but i've sold hundreds of kites and here's a little comparison of some kites is sold about the same time
Fuel 2008, brand new, sold for $500
Pulse 2 2008, used about 30 times, sold for $1000
Ocean Rodeo Rise 2008 10m, used once, sold for $700
Flysurfer Psycho4 10m, used 8 times, sold for $1400
I always almost make my money back on foils i buy, i almost always take a loss on LEIs i buy...

Quote:

I here about the durability of kites, how foils are so much better. LEIs always have bladder problems. This just dosent hold true. Take care of either foil or LEI and they will last. Crash alot, drag them across the ground, they wont last as long. Both can rip or be torn. LEIs have bladders that can pop. Foils have bridals that stretch and tear out. I can replace a bladder and the kite flys like new, replace bridals and theres alot of tweaking to get it to fly like it was new.

I agree, apart from the tweaking, i never tweak my flysurfers and i've never had to replace a bridle and i've never had to have one repaired... i treat my kites well... my inflatables i've had 2 of them blow out completely randomly in the sky. I love them still

Quote:

Lets talk about relaunch. Someone ripping across wipes out, or pulls safety, lines go slack kite piles in. 75% of the time an LEI will be in the air faster then a foil. Most new LEIs its as simple as pulling an outside line.

Relaunch is something that experienced riders are good at, on any kite whatever. Flysurfers, in my opinion, are much easier to relauch than CKites, the same easyness to relaunch as SLEs and bows and much easier to relaunch in lower winds than both. I can relaunch my LEIs in whatever wind stregthin under a minute everytime. The pulse2/p4 is exactly the same relaunch speed as an sle, just pull one rear line. No difference.... UNLESS my kite rolls in the wave, i've rolled my flysurfers in the waves before, i've got it back up in the air 2 times out of about 8 times i've done it, my SLEs i normally can get back up without beaching it...

Quote:

Upwind, depends on wind conditions, Light wind ill have to say foils, Pile on some high end gusty stuff and ill take an LEI. Old school old guy riding Foil, Hard core wakestyle, ripping of some waves, or first water starts LEIs.

Yup, but i'm 26, do i fit in the old guy bracket? I'm happy because i'm all about the big air and in my 8 years of riding i can outjump myself on a speed2 by about 10feet to a compatible LEI...

Quote:

If foils were that good wouldnt all the pros be riding them? Wouldnt all the schools be using them.

i cant be bothered to go through this argument again it's so silly... pros ride the companies that pay to send them round the world riding their kites... foil companies have terrible terrible PR in my opinion as well as not having as much money to spend on luxuries like pro riders and competition fees...

Quote:

Gee i ride the coast and i can count how many foil guys there are on one hand. Heck the whole week i was in hatters i only saw one guy on a foil and he was with us.

Why do you think it's about quality? When i was learning, i learnt on what my friends had, a slingshot fuel, then i tried a guerilla and prefered that, now i prefer the fuel again but that's another story... the only people riding foils are people with no friends haha, no i mean people who like experimenting with different technologies ----- they are hard to get a hold of, rarely on ebay, never in your local shop... That's why you don't see them.

Quote:

Few weeks back was kiting a local spot, rigging up, and a guy was asking about my buddy on his PL. After explaining to him about it , i told him "Its all the same, just different."

Exactly right... it is all the same... apart from the speed 2
Don't knock it unless you've tried it.


Sorry for that long old post

Depends where you go here, seems to be regional trends - where I am, 99% of people fly those Sigma kites. But on the other coast 99% of people are flying the bow things ...

One of my kite buddies has a truck. It has a V8 and lots of power and he can haul stuff, but it sucks gas.

My other kite buddy has a sports car. It's fast, really fast but it cost more and still doesn't get great gas mileage and he can't fit alot of gear in there.

My other buddy has a tiny car. It gets almost 50 mpg and it's slow as hell. Don't even think about passing in that thing.

They all get us to the beach though, and we all have fun riding and drinking beers after sessions and talking #@%$#! about each others cars.

LEI, Foil. Who really gives a #@%$#!. The only people that care about what you fly are self conscious people who want to fit in. Get an old kite, get a new kite. Get a foil, get an inflatable. Bottom line, get your ass out there and have fun. If you don't like a foil don't buy them. Make sure to sell them cheap to us though, because we do like them. And then head over to Kiteforum because all your LEI buddies are over there.

A.

Quote:

For the most part you are just giving your personal preference apart from the gusts in the upper wind range which i completely agree with, i'm not a fan of small flysurfers at all

Bloahs points were
Stability,top end,low end,depower, windrange, Safety, turning speed, and inflation.
only turning speed might be considered personal preference.

Quote:

I am a little sad the way flysurfer seems to be trying to make their kites just turn as fast as they can and make them feel more like inflatables. They should know better than that

Because as Nwsurfwakeskate said foils are more of a niche for kiteboarding. More people prefer how LEIs fly. So why not try to match that? Isnt the idea to sell kites.

How is a Speed 2 revolutionary? Looks the same as most other foils. Slight upgrade from a Speed 1 or modded 1.5. Same basic design, And this is revolutionary? It had a major impact on kiting?
Depower was revolutionary, fifth line safety was revolutionary, Bow kites were revolutionary. These things have totally changed and shaped what kiting is today.

the idea is NOT to sell kites.... the idea is to have FUN.... if your nose is too high in the air and your attitude is lousy... you'll never experience contentment, peace, and joy of the sport. eventually you'll be able to kite just for the fun of it regardless of the equipment.

i love threads like this ... makes me laugh so hard. good dialogue is priceless.... although please watch your language , this is a family-friendly forum.

below is the article which actually tested all the "revolutionary" kite designs.

http://www.snowkiting.se/pdf/depower+test+kite+mag+julyaugus...

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah Just sold my final foil, and am not regretting... Quote: Originally posted by bloahFlysurfer Psycho 4 12 - 1050$ SALE PENDING ...................." Love the kite, dont really want to sell it, but need money for a tube kite. ...................." Hmmm the fickleness of love and the deceptions it involves....

rudeboysaude
the point of this discussion was to show using real world performance arguments to show that lei are better after all. I love foils, but I can't progress on them any futher. I tried LEI's and I landed all the jumps, spins, etc.

_thephantom_
I still love and miss my foils, but I cannot progress on them any futher.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT ON WATER PERFORMANCE (NOT EFFICIENCY) IS BETTER FOR LEI'S THEN FOILS (FLYSURFERS MAINLY)

for all those who say go and have fun, or it is a personal preference, go and try some good LEI's. If the wind is above 15 knots, they do exceed almost in everything. Performance wise!

BeamerBob:
I agree speed 2 has an amazing upwind, but not pulse 2 or p4.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah BeamerBob: I agree speed 2 has an amazing upwind, but not pulse 2 or p4.

I have limited (7 months using depower) experience with Peter Lynn Arcs on land only and have never flown a flysurfer. I've been amazed by the upwind ability of my Phantom and that feeling has been echoed by tridude on the water. That was the basis of my upwind question. Others have spoken of high upwind ability of their flysurfers so that's why I asked. I didn't realize at the time that this discussion was primarily between the merits of flysurfers and lei's. I'm watching and listening intently here though. Always the student.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah ... the point of this discussion was to show using real world performance arguments to show that lei are better after all. ...

Better for you. Which is kind of the point here. It is a matter of personal preference. I have flown LEIs and Foils. I enjoy flying all of them. For my current learning stage on the water, I prefer LEIs. Doing any land riding, I want my foils. And I cannot wait until I get a chance to try some foils in the water.

i loved tube kites for all the same reasons until.....i started loosing sessions to leaking/failing bladders and did not want to deal with it EVER ! new stuff, used stuff it will happen , but not to me!

BTW thanks BLOAH for the V10 that Vucker ROCKS! in 30+

glad you got something you like, get comfortable and have some blowout FUN!

it's why we're here folks

i prefer flying my bed sheet when the winds are gusty

but thats just me:Ange09:

I understand you have sold some foils to go along with some LEIs. Both have pros and cons, and I do personnally like some LEIs in small sizes.

But why the hell did you sell your 17m speed1.

LEIs above 14m size are inefficient. They don't have more low end than smaller sizes than can generate more apparent wind. They turn slow too, and are just too heavy in the sky. They can only be useful for some heavy guys in more winds which is not your case.

You live in Toronto, an inland place where you will miss many days kiting because you sold it. Just look at Paul Berube (pbkiteboarding) youtube videos. At 150 pounds, he is quite often out on the 19m even tough he rides LEIs when much windy.

This week I have been out on 4 rides. 1 on the P4 15m, and 3 on the 19m arrow, and I work full time. Without Flysurfer, I would have miss that.

Tuesday early morning. Me and another guy at the beach. I am on the 19m + DOOR, I go upwind like crazy and jump. The other guy on a Turbo Diesel 14m + Glide goes downwind (when not struggling to water start) and did many walk of shame.

Thursday afternoon, same scenario on the 19m. I went to play upwind by almost 1000m from the shore while 2 other riders using cabrinha SB3 12m had no fun at all.

Sunday morning, little ride in the morning on the P4 15m while everyone having fun too. Spot too much crowded: about 30 windsurfers and another 30 kiters. Not so much fun then.

After lunch the wind dropped to below bit 10 knots, it was time to do my show. We are a few more riders having arrows in Quebec so riders now do understand what they are. I had 3 guys wanting to help me launch my kite. Sorry I self launch in light winds. For about an hour I had all the water for my self.

Conclusion::

If I had to have only 1 kite, I would keep my SA2 19m. I would get more days kiting than any other kite.

BUT::

I have a smaller Cabrinha too, and I love it when it's 20knots+

So are we saying light wind riding the foils win and in every other condition LEIs prevail?
Lets not forget that the light wind master the flysurfer SA is 2550-2700 bucks. thats alot of cash to get out on those light wind days. If i want out that bad ill ride a small kite and a surfboard.