I know this is against all D'arc side rules but i'm beginning to look and see if there is a better kite to handle the fickle idaho winds.... I'm actually wondering about the Flysurfer outlaw specifically but also curious about the pulses... how do they handle in the lower wind range? Anyone with outlaws(or pulses) have Arc experience as well? Just curious how the two compare with stability, etc...

I tend to lean towards "it's more expensive? oh it MUST be better!" idea, which isn't always true. That's why i'm truly curious about how the two compare.

I have two Outlaws, and friends with Arcs, but I have not had much time to fly them. Been meaning to give them a shot, just not something I have done yet...

However, if you are looking for low wind performance, I would lean more towards the Speeds just because of the sheer grunt power they posess. I love to fly my 12m Outlaw in 10-15 mph winds, and its great on land in those winds, but if it drops under 10mph, it can be a real pain to get off the ground. Now, if you had it made out of Silver Arrow fabric, might be a different story... I'd still lean towards the Speeds though... That is their strongest feature...

Quote:

Originally posted by ragden I'd still lean towards the Speeds though... That is their strongest feature...

Yeah, i'd look into the speeds if I didn't have to live in a house and could just live right out of my car. At that price it's a house or an SA... I could use the SA as shelter right? ehh... on the otherhand the wife wouldn't appreciate that. :moon:

Flysurfers really suck.... Just kidding. :embarrased: This thread was started without any inflammatory position so we might be able to actually talk about strengths and weaknesses here without ruffling feathers. I've been talking to tridude about this very subject but I still have more questions than answers. The handful of guys that know both type kites will help us assimilate all the facts. I love quality friendly threads like this btw. Lots of us are going to learn something.

there's a very nice 8m Speed 2 up on ebay right now. the seller is a PKF member. that'd make an excellent kite for either low winds or smooth winds.

flysurfers turn gusts into power so if you have sharp abrupt gusts at the site you are thinking of... those gusts will feel painful on a flysurfer where as an arc will just blob around and soak them up instead. I guess sometimes there is such a thing as TOO efficient :P

look what you need.

do you need to get on water, then the Outlaw is for a great price an awesome kite. I had a demo 10m with me last winter, and I will for sure try to get some next winter

ease of use, turn fast, nice jumping

IMO the outlaw has a bit better low end than the Pulse2 but they are practically the same kite.

Denis,

I'm not sure if I'm hearing you correctly? are you suggesting the outlaw as a good water kite?

So gusts aren't handled very well by the flysurfers is what i've heard in the past as well. But what about lulls? Or holes in the window?

arrow's do really well with lulls...they tend to just float through them.

all the other flysurfers I've ever flown would float for a second maybe 2 before they do one of the following collapse/invert/fall backwards

thats assuming were talking about lulls so light the kite is no longer flying.

I've always liked flysurfers for there lightwind lowend/hangtime/vert/light bar pressure/easy relaunch/fast setup/minimal preinflation

when I say light bar pressure I should mention its adjustable so you can have so light you can fly the kite on 2 fingers all the way up to having medium pressure so you can feel the kite even when you're not watching it.

Quote:

Originally posted by DenisLaMenace IMO the outlaw has a bit better low end than the Pulse2 but they are practically the same kite.

You might be confusing the outlaw with another kite. The real difference is the Outlaw is an open cell kite, it works for land and snow but not water.

Quote:

Originally posted by live2hover Quote: Originally posted by DenisLaMenace IMO the outlaw has a bit better low end than the Pulse2 but they are practically the same kite. You might be confusing the outlaw with another kite. The real difference is the Outlaw is an open cell kite, it works for land and snow but not water.

Actually DenisLaMenace is right, the outlaw is almost identical in everyway to the pulse with the exception that it is open celled... Very similar feel to them.

Quote:

Originally posted by domdino Actually DenisLaMenace is right, the outlaw is almost identical in everyway to the pulse with the exception that it is open celled... Very similar feel to them.

Thanks, you may be right. I was commenting more on this statement I guess.

Quote:

Originally posted by DenisLaMenace do you need to get on water, then the Outlaw is for a great price an awesome kite. I had a demo 10m with me last winter, and I will for sure try to get some next winter

I've never used a flysurfer, but sure would like to own one some day. What I know of flysurfers is through the research I have done while looking to purchase my own.

outlaw = land specific

pulse 2 = all terrain


same basic shape and line plan. Outlaw is open Cell. Pulse 2 is closed cell with 2 intakes


hope that clears things up

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate Denis, I'm not sure if I'm hearing you correctly? are you suggesting the outlaw as a good water kite?

I just reread my self and sometimes the keyboard plays me tricks

what I meant is if dont need to go to water

:-)

Last year I helped the local dealer for a snowkite demo day where we had some outlaws 6m, 10m, and I also let some riders tried the P4 and Pulse2 I had.

some 6-7 riders who were frenzy or Manta riders all felt in love with the outlaw. no exception.

2 of them have then tried the Pulse2 8m and the P4 10m in same conditions. I asked what about.

They really preferred the outlaw. I still don't know why but I think it's because they were not accustomed to closed cell kites.

One of the ozone riders told me the Outlaw was the only cell kite he tried in his life where he had a close feeling to an inflatable: smooth, fluid, stable, powerful and turn fast at same time.

IMO the pulse2 does it too

I kept the outlaw 10m for the rest of the winter, and I had fun with it. The only thing I think of is because of being an open cell kite, it could have a bit less drag and be more efficient. But I am still perplex about it.

Anyway the outlaw is great.

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate same basic shape and line plan. Outlaw is open Cell. Pulse 2 is closed cell with 2 intakes

I suppose the Pulse 2 10m with 3 intakes that PZ modded must feel good.

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate there's a very nice 8m Speed 2 up on ebay right now. the seller is a PKF member. that'd make an excellent kite for either low winds or smooth winds. flysurfers turn gusts into power so if you have sharp abrupt gusts at the site you are thinking of... those gusts will feel painful on a flysurfer where as an arc will just blob around and soak them up instead. I guess sometimes there is such a thing as TOO efficient :P

thats good to know as i'm new to these depowers and i thought a flysurfer would eat up gusts--now that i know they dont i'll watch my winds..... is a pl bomba considered an arc?

here are some things that I've expeienced:

The FS pulse2 has LONG bridles! much longer than my Frenzy. They say pulse2 has shorter bridles than the pulse1. If that's true, i'd hate to see the bridles on a pulse1. bridle lines is one reason i'll be switching to arcs

comparing packing methods of a closed cell to an open cell, i find packing an open cell much easier

preinflating a closed cell isn't that bad, but if you don't need the kite for water, i'd go with an open cell for faster launches

i found closed cells handled lulls better than open cells, since it has that internal pressure to help keep the shape longer

i found open cells to eat up strong gusts better than closed cells. seems to be the concensus that arcs are gust munchers

imo if you don't need the water capability i'd go with an open cell kite, probably the outlaw over others

For kitejumper: yeah, a PL Bomba is an arc.

Just curious - f0rgiv3n are you looking for a low wind engine because the wind conditions in your area are consistently low or are you trying to get out every day no matter what the conditions?

I ask this because I have been there, in the low wind all the time conditions. When all you have is nothing it might be worth getting something that can move you in a bird fart. But be careful on what you spend - in the end cruising at 10 mph in a bug is not worth a $1200 kite, you're better off having someone tow you in a truck for free.

If your thinking of gettting another rather expensive kite to get every bit out of a season that's already pretty good I wouldn't bother - be thankful for what you get and take a rest when the wind abates to a whisper, besides if you're already used to good winds you'll be nothing but frustrated at trying to fly a giant kite in low winds and getting little to nowhere slowly.

Oh -- and I have yet to try the flysurfers but when it blows in these parts you need something that can eat the gusts and the PL's do that job superbly.

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Originally posted by flexiblade be thankful for what you get and take a rest when the wind abates to a whisper, besides if you're already used to good winds you'll be nothing but frustrated at trying to fly a giant kite in low winds and getting little to nowhere slowly

here here! I have two kites, one for riding and one for static jumping for days when the wind isn't enough for riding. anything less or more than what my two kites cover isn't a wind i want to fly in anyways

Quote:

Originally posted by flexiblade For kitejumper: yeah, a PL Bomba is an arc. Just curious - f0rgiv3n are you looking for a low wind engine because the wind conditions in your area are consistently low or are you trying to get out every day no matter what the conditions? I ask this because I have been there, in the low wind all the time conditions. When all you have is nothing it might be worth getting something that can move you in a bird fart. But be careful on what you spend - in the end cruising at 10 mph in a bug is not worth a $1200 kite, you're better off having someone tow you in a truck for free. If your thinking of gettting another rather expensive kite to get every bit out of a season that's already pretty good I wouldn't bother - be thankful for what you get and take a rest when the wind abates to a whisper, besides if you're already used to good winds you'll be nothing but frustrated at trying to fly a giant kite in low winds and getting little to nowhere slowly. Oh -- and I have yet to try the flysurfers but when it blows in these parts you need something that can eat the gusts and the PL's do that job superbly.

hey flexi,

Wow that was probably some of the best advice i've ever received. You nailed it spot on too. I guess i have been frustrated with the low/crappy winds around here and have been grasping at whatever i can...

Thanks for the information too on the flysurfers and the PLs! It's quite interesting.

Well said Flexiblade. I share the same feelings towards those nuking wind days when sure, I could set up the 1.5 meter but it still would be more hairy than fun so better to just enjoy tinkering in the garage or hanging out at home that day.

(FYI - I bought the 17m P3 for those days when there was wind but not enough to get an arc off the ground - just one step above the gnat fart...about 7-10mph)

I've never really grasped what activities we were trying to power here but I can't say enough about the PL Reactors. I have an 8.3 and it has been my most reached for kite this summer. It needs about 5mph if its steady and that will get you 15 mph or more in the buggy. My next kite will be the 10.8m Reactor II. It only needs about 3-3.5 mph and you are rolling. It is good for 4 times wind speed and you can hold it up to about 7-8 mph. Strops recommended for this big boy.

True, F0rgiv3n never defined "fickle" or "low wind". From what I've seen on our beach, the Flysurfers will have it over the ARC's, and a big open cell will have it over all (wind 1-7). Now I am talking about slim margins here. My 18m Phantom will fly in 4 and buggy in 5. Kitedog will get his big Flysurfer SA (that's an SA right, Greg?) up and rolling at about the same or maybe 1-2 less. I can put my Reactor 10.8 up and roll in 3-4 and move the bug at 16mph and keep about 10 mph in winds of 2-3, while rolling through the occasional 0-1 lull.

Sure I enjoy a good blow (you know what I mean) but I also enjoy chasing those bird farts that Flexiblade speaks of. It is really gratifying to maintain 15+ mph in 4 mph of wind, using every trick you can to keep it going. It's just as cool to roll by buggy camp and see the streamers on my little wind mast sitting perfectly still.

When I first got the big Reactor, I was skeptical of the value of a $600 kite with a practical usable wind range range of about 6mph (1-7). But if you look at "wind range" as a function of time (much of the summer) as opposed to pure velocity, many will see the value.

Now the Reactor 10.8 is like a phantom limb. I keep reaching for it but is is not there; I keep forgetting that it is on loan.

both flysurfers and arcs are great kites, they just handle differently... if i remember correcly, you do a lot of mountainboarding, right?? probably snowkiting, too...

for all my mountainboarding needs, i pull out an arc... very smooth power delivery, and can be tamed down where a flysurfer cant be... flysurfers are a little more punchy, and more powerful per square meter... i live in texas, so no snowkiting experience here...

flysurfers launch and pack up easier, but there can be bridle hassles, these will diminish on snow.... arcs are a little different to launch, but much more stable than flysurfers.... flysurfers have an easier relaunch....

they are both good kites.... i guess you just need to see which one feels better to you

Best advice I can offer, go fly them and see what you like.

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Originally posted by ragden Best advice I can offer, go fly them and see what you like.

If only i could :D .

I'm very much enjoying my arcxperience !

Trying to compare arcs to my Flysurfers is difficult. So much is different.

There are things about arcs I wish were better. I'm waiting to get a shot at a 19 and 24 but my 15 needs more wind than we often get around here.8 mph is enough to pull a decent buggy ride out of it but not enough for powered riding / jumping. It is frustrating. I have also managed to do more damage to this kite than my Flysurfers. I bent a spar and also got my 1st ever rip ( while flying ). The Spar was my fault , do to poor flying but the way the kite drags on launch is how I think the rip happened? My Flysurfers stood up to my terrible habits well. I think the arc needs just a bit more care.

I think what I like most about arcs so far is the fact that it is a huge kite with a low but very change-abe projected area. My 15 flies and turns like a 7 or 10 Flysurfer but floats better than my 13m PsychoIII did ( because I would blow the redirect ). This has been a huge help with jumps. I found it strange enjoying a 15m kite when others had 2m and tandem buggies but now I feel more safe with the Syn than a twitchy 2m fixed bridle or even my beloved 7m Pulse in high winds!

Try to fly BOTH !!!! Both are good.

NOOOOOOO!!!!
Second guessing the D'arc Side?!?!?!?!
*the force trembles*

Phantom graphic > Outlaw graphic

lol!!

IDK... looks like an interesting topic... if you do get a chance to try both, let us know... flysurfers carry a great rep... i dont know if better is the right word, but im sure they're great kites none the less

(Whats the flysurfer side? The Ewok Side? maybe west tatooine si-eede, represent!!... lol sorry, long day.. not all there)

Drewculous I am your father. Nooooooooooooooooo!

When 900 years old your Flysurfer Outlaw becomes, look as good as a Peter Lynn Phantom, it will not.