I didn't want to hijack the other kite killer thread so I started this new one.

I am asking this question of those who do not like to use kite killers. I jokingly commented to fly de-powers for the added safety and Scudley responded with :

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Anybody notice that depowers have two releases: one to release the powerlines; one to jettison the kite? I wonder why they do that.

This got me thinking. Would those of you who oppose using kite killers feel better about others using them if there was a second release to release the kite killers from the pilot. Here is a rough example: lets say the pilot is wearing a harness and the kite killers connect to wichard or chicken loop on the harness .... Pilot gets in trouble and lets go of the handles ... kite killers take over. If there is still danger the pilot can pull the chicken loop release or wichard and complete disconnect from the kite. I hope I'm making sense.

What do you all think about this?

I think that would be better than not being able to release the kite. I hope the shackle stays with the pilot. ( I am not keen on the strop releases that leave the shackle and block attached to the strop adding to the mass of a set of flying handles.)
I still think it is a bad idea for novice kiters to attach themselves to a kite and have the confidence to fly kites they may not be able to control. It is very hard to think as you are doing a superman. These things happen very fast

S

To be or not to be that is the question.Whether it is safe to be tied to the kite or free.
As long as each person has the right to make their own decision, we will all disagree to some point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this an extreme sport? As long as we keep pushing the envelope with tricks and stunts and faster speeds we will continue to do things our own way.
I left common sense at home the other day and now I have broken ribs to show for it, stuff happens and will continue to happen, all that aside nobody want to see anyone hurt and if they listen to all the horror stories only the crazy's will fill the skys with kites.

What I'm trying to say is each to their own, and we can take the advice of others or leave it. Only my wife has to suffer with my bad decisions as I groan with agony all night long. I use kite killers from time to time and I use a captive system from time to time. Not all systems are 100% all the time, but thats my decision to make, right?

I guess I don't understand what you mean. If Im wearing a harness and the handles slip out of my hands Kit killers won't help at all because your main lines are attached to your harness. In order for you to make the KK work the main line has to go slack.

I did see someone toying with the idea to use a KK attached to the release on his snappy(witchard) I went over and talked to him about this and showed him that in order for it to work the KK needs to be so short that he would be in danger of releasing the kite while doing normal flying. or he would have to make it so long thathis arm wouldn't be long enough to release it anyway.

Someone else had a system where a type of KK was attached to the buggy and If you started getting lifted out would release, Problem Kites normally lift you up and out meaning the kite is above you so when the thing released it was getting caught on peoples helmet,.jaw nose, Imagine a snappy ramming into you jaw because the system released.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid To be or not to be that is the question.Whether it is safe to be tied to the kite or free. As long as each person has the right to make their own decision, we will all disagree to some point. What I'm trying to say is each to their own, and we can take the advice of others or leave it. Only my wife has to suffer with my bad decisions as I groan with agony all night long. I use kite killers from time to time and I use a captive system from time to time. Not all systems are 100% all the time, but thats my decision to make, right?

Not quite true as your/my decision (poor judgment?) may result in someone else injuries.
S

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Quote: Originally posted by bigkid To be or not to be that is the question.Whether it is safe to be tied to the kite or free. As long as each person has the right to make their own decision, we will all disagree to some point. What I'm trying to say is each to their own, and we can take the advice of others or leave it. Only my wife has to suffer with my bad decisions as I groan with agony all night long. I use kite killers from time to time and I use a captive system from time to time. Not all systems are 100% all the time, but thats my decision to make, right? Not quite true as your/my decision (poor judgment?) may result in someone else injuries. S

Your right, thats my point.
Neither you or I can tell anyone how to do it right, and make sure they do it right so they dont screw up. All we can do is try to educate the ones that want to know and hope the rest of them listen.

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Originally posted by Krohn1999 I guess I don't understand what you mean. If Im wearing a harness and the handles slip out of my hands Kit killers won't help at all because your main lines are attached to your harness. In order for you to make the KK work the main line has to go slack.

sorry I was no clearer. I used the harness example as just a place to hook the quick release to. Not saying you were harnessed in to the kite. That is another whole topic on its own.
Another example would be no harness just have the quick release hooked to your belt loop. I know your belt loop probably is not strong enough, but I take the harness out of the equation.
Let me try again maybe even easier to get my point across. Instead of the kite killers being attached to your wrist they attach to a quick release and the quick release attaches to the pilot somehow. Pilot gets in trouble they can let go of the handles and it would act the same as if the kite killers were attached to their wrist. If for some reason the pilot needs to ditch the kite completely then they can pull the quick release.

I usually use a Wichard #2673 shackle attched to the top of my spreader bar as a release for my depower kites (clipped to a Loos continous thimble instead of a chicken loop) or with a block on a strop when flying hooked in with handles. My leash clips to a 1/2 loop TIG welded to the side of the Wichard.

I made a KK adaption that is basically a strop across the brake leaders near the handles with a short bungee leash. The leash is larksheaded to a Ronstan kite pulley. The other end has a typical pin safety at the Wichard. The trick is to have enough length in the strop combined with a stretchy leash (I use polyurethane bungee inside a tubular web, so the web takes the strain at the limit when the bungee is fully stretched). Getting this to a length where it works but there isn't so much hanging down that you can tangle or trip over it is a challenge. Also, in light winds, just the weight of the strop on the brake leaders can pre-brake the kite. If your kite brakes fine with just the length of your handles, you can fasten the 'killer strop' to the handles and that isn't an issue.

Maybe it'll go to the beach this week for some more testing. Still no substitute for having control of your kite...

krumly

This is sort of how my JoJo trainer was set up.

It was a 3 line on a bar. The wrist strap's safety had a simple pin Q.R. . When I used my harness with it I could connect the wrist strap to my spreader beside the hook.

One time I let go. The brakes hit so hard the leash broke :shocked2: If it had been on my wrist I might have been sorry ?

Yeah -

I have several 2004 or 2005 Airush bars that were an excellent buy, and they came with the left rear line wrist leash - old school. That got changed real quick.

krumly

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Originally posted by bigkid Neither you or I can tell anyone how to do it right, and make sure they do it right so they dont screw up. All we can do is try to educate the ones that want to know and hope the rest of them listen.

Exactly true. People keep telling me killers are a safety device. To my mind this is malarkey as there is no evidence they increase the safety of the pilot or bystanders. Tell people they are a kite retention device and I have no problem with them. I have a real problem with someone telling beginners kite killers will make it safer to fly a bigger kite.
S

Yep, much better that they hold on after losing control because they are afraid to turn loose of the kite out of embarrasment or fear of kite damage/loss. It's not that it makes it safer to fly a bigger kite, but safer for them to turn loose rather than "tough it out" if they lose control.

I was flying my old Crossfire 5m once in 5-6 mph winds. My dad decided he wanted some of the peaceful easy feeling I was having. For some reason, I didn't have the kite killers on but I had been flying it 3 feet off the ground all the way across the power zone so I say "Oh well, it is barely staying in the sky at all anyway". He thinks a big gust came along but he just sent it a little lower in the power zone and then couldn't do the Crossfire 2-step fast enough. He got dragged over and skinned up his elbows and bruised his ribs because he was inclined to not lose or tear up my nice kite. He still has a scar on his left elbow. I've never let him fly one of my kites again without kks in place and reassured him that it was fine to let go if he felt overpowered. So yeah, in this case, it is a safety device, but yet for me it would be more accurate to call it a kite retention device. "Kite Killer" is just easier to say.

I can't say my same points any different so I'm over and out on this one.

Scudley - any studies been done to investigate whether they are or aren't? :D
Common sense suggests that if you're over-powered suddenly and can dump the kite's power instantly through the KKs, then that's safer than being dragged downwind out of control ...

Perhaps there's a level of experience that you can arrive at, when you know you whether can ride it out or not and react accordingly. However, training noobs to trust their safety gear and drilling them in the use of it switches the process from conscious decision to reflex.
... where would Kevin Kearney be now if he'd just popped the safety the first time he got yanked?

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Originally posted by BeamerBob I can't say my same points any different so I'm over and out on this one.

lol ditto

i probably said this many times.

I perfer NOT to use KKs because

had to learn without them 10+ years ago, we never had them. i guess someone just came up with the idea and it stuck

i've learned other methods to take down a kite when in trouble that are safe if not safter than relying on a system
- control brake landing
- pulling both brake leaders with one had (from harness)
- flying kite to the extreme outside of the wind window and letting the kite collapse
- a simple running forward
- the aways "let go" it releases all tension and the kite comes into a ball

may i would use KK years ago if they had them. however i see more kitebuggiers without them. on the flip side i do see a lot of them used when static.

I have to admit I don't have much experience with fixed bridal kites and kite killers, but why couldn't you develop a handle that had a sort of leash like a depower that had a second safety to release the kite.

So the leash would hook to just one of the brake lines that was allowed to slide up the handle when you let go of both handles. A sort of hole in the handle that the line could move through. That leash could be attached to your wrist. Then the kite would flag out attached by only only line and allow you a free hand to hit the wrist leash safety to disconnect from the kite if you landed it onto a car moving down the highway and you're being drug by it.

Maybe I'm not considering some variable, but it seems like it would work in my head at least.

PKD kitekillers have a loop on the velcro of the wrist strap that would allow you to easily undo the strap.

Rude, this is just what I thought of doing with a single KK, (or my Ozone Access wrist/arm leash), on the sliding brake line of my HQ Ultra Handles.

edit: - Dakitz - maybe a strop on the brakes attached to a quick-release, kite-surfer bungee leash would be the ticket.

kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s might put the pilot at risk, but it keeps the PUBLIC SAFE! that's the point.

KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are easy to release, they are for me anyways.

DAKITES if you come up with something sweet please share pics.

I have been staying out of this and the other thread because it can be such a heated debate.

I will go ahead and put my neck on the line and say the following:

Kite Killers are indeed safety devices but only when used and set up properly for the right sized kite in the right conditions AND are constructed in a way that they can be removed easily and quickly in an emergency situation.

Now, before everyone jumps onto their keyboard and starts the flaming - I want to clarify a little. I said when setup properly - meaning that when you release the handles the kite killers "Kill" the kite. I am constantly amazed at how many people do not set up their killers properly, by either attaching them close to the handles or attaching them behind the flying lines so that when deployed the killer runs down to the handles. The kite killers must be hooked up on the brake line leaders far enough so that when the handle is released, the kite loses power and collapses. The killer also needs to be attached in a way that it won't move or slide along the leader lines when deployed.

Now - it doesn't matter what type of kite killers or where you attach them if you are flying a kite that is to large for the conditions and you don't have the proper skills to control the kite in those conditions. This is the exact same thing in that using a helmet on a motorcycle is not going to save your life if you are screaming down the freeway over 100 mph doing wheelies and happen to crash! If you put yourself in a dangerous situation, the safety features are not going to be nearly as effective and your chances of getting injured or even killed are greatly increased....period! Kite killers are safety devices - not special magical items that will allow you to fly a super huge kite beyond its recommended wind range or beyond your own abilities. If you take an 8 meter kite out in 25 mph winds, don't expect the kite killers to save your butt! Chances are your gonna get hurt regardless if you use killers or not....and in this case, it would probably be better if you weren't using them cuz your not going to be able to hold the kite down anyways and its going to yank you around like a rag doll.

Personally - I encourage any new pilot to use kite killers. I also explain and strongly encourage that a new pilot does not take a kite out in winds that are beyond the kites rated range...and to be extremely careful if flying the kite in the upper ends of the rated wind range. The reason is that a new pilot does not understand the wind window and also does not have the necessary skills to safely control the kite in all situations. Most new pilots will get the kite launched and then drop the kite directly into the power window and won't be ready for it. If the kite killers are set up properly and the handles get yanked from their hands - or if they are yanked onto their face and the handles POP out of their hands (this is usually what happens) the kite will get killed and 80-90% of all power is released.

As a pilot's skills improve, they will be more aware of the wind window, the power the kites produce and how to control them. A skilled pilot can then decide if they want to use the killers or not. Most of the time I do not use killers. If the winds are screaming 30+ and I am bugging with a small foil (2 meter or smaller) I will usually use killers because if I get nailed by a gust or if something else happens, I can dump the kite easily and quickly without having to then chase the kite down (Ok, maybe I am just lazy that way) but it works.

So, there's my opinion on the subject. As long as everyone takes the responsibility of their actions and flies within their limits and the limits of the kites, we should be able to keep the injuries to a minimum and have less chances of areas being shut down because of liability issues or injuries. We will also be able to maintain a better image of kite flyers and hopefully be more accepted by the general public.

Happy Winds!
Kent

Not much to add to Kent´s post but I thought to share my thoughts.

KK´s are specifically meant for kiteflying WITHOUT hooking yourself into a harness.
Any kite that comes with kite killers (should have) 2 handles WITHOUT a harnessloop.
Looking at kites of the bigger manufacturers you´ll see just that, reason for this is simple, learn to fly your kite first (in light to moderate winds) on handles with the KK´s to ensure (some!) safety.
the second you change handles or place a line between ´em and "hook in" the KK´s lose their functionality.
(sure there are ways around that but these are not as intended by manufacturers (at least not the ones I know of and talk to))
When looking at kites aimed towards intermediate and pro riders you´ll see that in most common cases these kites don´t come with KK´s and are equiped with handles with a harnessloop, pilots who fly these usually have some sort of release on their harness/spreaderbar to jettison the kite when trouble arises.
Personally I don´t care much for KK´s and after the first couple of sessions you should be able to fly without having to use them.
AS Ripsesh said, we learned to fly without the luxury(?)
KK´s are just there to help the beginning kiteflyer out of the trouble he or she is going to encounter along the way, but as all beginners should, begin in easy winds!

Couple of things...

no strop = no need for kite killers (let go of 1 handle)
strop + harness = almost useless kite killers (obe has already happened before you can release)

I think we know why manufactures include them but some people abuse the good intentions of trying to make an extreme sport a little safer.

Education is the answer!

People learned to kitesurf on Wipika flying diapers with wrist leashes way back when ... should we continue to do so cos "Hey I didn't learn to fly with the luxury of bow-kites and full depower systems" ...? Of course not, we adapt and move on and hopefully up

Like Kent said and I guess those of us 'pro-kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- are assuming - they're set up correctly and being used without a strop & harness. Right tool for the job - used correctly and all that.

... I learned to fly without a helmet too :D

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Originally posted by ripsessionkites i probably said this many times. I perfer NOT to use KKs because had to learn without them 10+ years ago, we never had them. i guess someone just came up with the idea and it stuck i've learned other methods to take down a kite when in trouble that are safe if not safter than relying on a system - control brake landing - pulling both brake leaders with one had (from harness) - flying kite to the extreme outside of the wind window and letting the kite collapse - a simple running forward - the aways "let go" it releases all tension and the kite comes into a ball may i would use KK years ago if they had them. however i see more kitebuggiers without them. on the flip side i do see a lot of them used when static.

- control brake landing
- pulling both brake leaders with one had (from harness)
- flying kite to the extreme outside of the wind window and
letting the kite collapse
- a simple running forward
- the always "let go" it releases all tension and the kite comes into a ball
very good points and all of those techniques are what everyone, noobs especially, should know down pat before asking/learning how to jump and other stuff.

Paul

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Originally posted by -mj- Any kite that comes with kite killers (should have) 2 handles WITHOUT a harnessloop. Looking at kites of the bigger manufacturers you´ll see just that, reason for this is simple, learn to fly your kite first (in light to moderate winds) on handles with the KK´s to ensure (some!) safety. the second you change handles or place a line between ´em and "hook in" the KK´s lose their functionality. (sure there are ways around that but these are not as intended by manufacturers (at least not the ones I know of and talk to)) When looking at kites aimed towards intermediate and pro riders you´ll see that in most common cases these kites don´t come with KK´s and are equiped with handles with a harnessloop,

-mj-
It appears much of the confusion that RonH says education is required to remove is the caused by the manufacturers and distributors.
As a distributor of Ozone kites I assume that you know of and talk to them. Their land kite manual, available online at flyozone.com, states that kite killers are mandatory. Ozone Pro Handles are sold with a strop that would require dismantling the leaders to remove. Kite killers are included with them and connot be purchased without killers. There appears to be a discrepancy between Ozone and your company as you say killers should never be used with a strop.
I am sure you can see why I and many others are confused as to correct use of kite killers. I am looking forward to your assistance in clearing up our confusion.
S

I might be wrong about the uselessness of kite killers but at least I am consistent.

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Originally posted by RonH Couple of things... no strop = no need for kite killers (let go of 1 handle) strop + harness = almost useless kite killers (obe has already happened before you can release) I think we know why manufactures include them but some people abuse the good intentions of trying to make an extreme sport a little safer. Education is the answer!

letting go of one handle is safe for you but not the public. My son was hit from over 40 yards away by a flying handle.

+1 what stetson said - boing!

Last time I let go of a kite, it didn't ball up - in fact, it held its shape quite well, as it floated down wind towards the road, powerlines etc.

... getting pretty hard to deny KKs, when used correctly, are a necessary safety item, eh - like a helmet :D

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Originally posted by Kamikuza ... getting pretty hard to deny KKs, when used correctly, are a necessary safety item, eh - like a helmet :D

You just like throwing the gas don't ya?:evil:

Throwing the gas on never hurt anyone ... oh wait a minute ...
:D